Predestination

Sometimes I just wonder:

Is it possible to stand against the will of God, or is even that human process de facto already preordianed by God?

Think about Saul and Judas who in their sinfullness carried out the will of God (if Saul did not fell from grace David would'nt have been the King; if Judas did'nt fulfill the prophesy in the psalms Jesus would'nt have been betrayed in total accord with Scripture.

M :-o

Take a look at the crucifiction of Jesus.

Acts 2:22-23 says, "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

God predetermined before the world began that Jesus would die on the cross. This means that is is not possible for Jesus to die any other way at all regardless of anything man does.

Does this mean man is not responsible? Of course not, all those men involved will be judged by the just God.

I agree - but still: it is troublesome for the intellect to grasp (and sometimes even for the heart).

Luther's biggest doubts concerning his own status as saved man was sometimes that he was afraid of not being counted among the few elected (as Saint Augustine would have put it) for the Kingdom of God.

Jesus own teaching points to this: a few saved contra many who would be lost.

Magnus

:-o

We do not have to worry about whether or not we have been elected. The Bible is clear that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and whosoever will may come freely.

Election is a blessing, not a curse.

That's for sure! But the flipside of that coin is eternal damnation for those who do not live in communion with Lord Jesus Christ and has the seal of the Holy Spirit (ie. Born Again/ from above).

Magnus :-o

Mangan wrote:
Sometimes I just wonder:
Is it possible to stand against the will of God, or is even that human process de facto already preordianed by God?

Satan did in his rebelion.
Adan & Eve did when they ate of the Tree.

Yes that's a matter of fact! But we have to take the whole counsel of God (ie. the whole biblical perspective)in account. Saint Augustine did that and postulated: the two wills of God

a. the will to save everyone
b. the will to save only those who are predestined to be saved.

Augustine made his postulation because of the ambiguity of Scripture on the subject (which is nothing strange given the case of different authors formating the Scriptures over time).

Magnus

:-x

II Peter 3:9 is a beautiful verse that demonstrates the love of God.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Some people emphasize the words 'not willing' and say that God is so patient and not willing that any person in the world perish that he is waiting for all men to come to repentance. But this is not really what the verse is saying.

I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone, but take a closer look at the verse.

To whom is God longsuffering? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved mentioned in verse 8. "But, beloved"

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you."

To whom is Peter writing this letter? Those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ--Christians.
2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say about the intended audience? 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Peter is not saying in this verse that God is patient with all men hoping that every person comes to repentance. Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish before the second coming and that all of the elect come to repentance.

Jay
I basically agree with your exegesis; but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect? There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.

Magnus

:-D

Ezekiel 18:23-32

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God did predestinate us for His purpose. Read the story of creation in Genesis.

Gen 1:26
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

God chose to create a creature after His own likeness for His good pleasure, for His good works before the foundations of the earth.

We all go astray as did Adam and Eve...our fleshly parents and we are consumed by sin.

However, Praise God...

Romans 5:18
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

However there is a stipulation to receiving this wonderful gift of grace...the same stipulation that justified Abraham, and cursed Israel in the wilderness...

Hebrews 2
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation

Hebrews 3:17-19
17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

In conclusion it is my understanding through the Word that God did predestinate mankind for His glory when He created us.

Yet because of our sin we destroyed that releationship God intended. But God being full of grace and love made a way to re-establish this relationship with Him through Jesus. If we believe that God grace is available for us (land of milk and honey) then we will step into a right relationship with Him made available by Him we will have access by this faith through the Holy Spirit and only through the Holy Spirit preserving us.

Jay
I basically agree with your exegesis; but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect? There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.

Magnus[/quote

You are correct. All who are foreknown by God will be justified. This is similar to John 6:39-40, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Thanks Jay, for your answer.

Magnus :-D

Krispy! Me too. The doctrine of predestination is a stumbling block for the mind (reason)but I still believe it to be accurate and according to Scripture.

It is to often our emotions that get in our way when we deal with issues of predestination or Grace (sola Gratia).

Magnus ;-)

Mangan wrote:
There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.

I try to keep this issue quite simple. Here's a little illustration:

Let's say you watch a movie, and someone dies near the end. At the start of the move, he's happily living out his life, and then all of a sudden, his life is over. Rewind the movie, and he's happy again. No matter how much you scream out at the screen, "Look out!! You're going to die at the end of the movie!!", he continues on, blissfully unaware, until the end of the movie.

God has his elect, but it is not so much a matter of God "not letting His elect perish" as "His elect NOT perishing". Do you see the difference? The latter is simply a fact, while the former paints God out to be busily putting out "spot fires" just in case one of His elect will perish. He is in control from the start to the finish.

But, you may ask, does that mean that we don't need to preach, because His elect will be saved anyway? Well, my response to you would be that if you are only preaching the gospel in order to "rescue lost souls", then you have missed the point. Preach in order to obey your King. It is not our job to "save the lost" but only to "warn of judgement" and "point to Jesus". This is His "chosen means". God alone saves souls. The point isn't that "sinners don't go to hell" but that "many sons be brought to glory".

Who are the elect? The ones that He saves. End of story. Are they foreordained? Of course, just as Christ's sacrifice was ordained "before the foundation of the world". But what if Adam and Eve didn't sin? But they did, didn't they, so why even ask the question?

The difficulties only come in when we try to fill in gaps that God has put in place, by speculating on things that might have been, but weren't. People have compared God's created order to a orchestral symphony. Imagine if someone filled in all the "rests" in "Fur Elise"? Somehow I don't think that it would sound as impressive.

And, by the way, Krispy... this is the secret of cutting down you paracetamol bill :-P

[size=xx-small][b]God has his elect, but it is not so much a matter of God "not letting His elect perish" as "His elect NOT perishing". Do you see the difference? The latter is simply a fact, while the former paints God out to be busily putting out "spot fires" just in case one of His elect will perish. He is in control from the start to the finish.[/b][/size]

Whats the big difference God is still the One who predestine? Explain? Are you describing an active God or a passive One?

Magnus :-(

but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect?

I have often wondered if all or most of the questions concerning predestination could be cleared up by looking at the circumstances that existed in the 1st century. 1900+ years later or even in Augustines time, the Church had long since moved away from Jerusalem and it had become 'normal' for Gentiles to believe and 'abnormal' for Jews to believe.

When the Temple was destroyed the Pharisees fled to Jamnia and started what would eventually become Rabbinic Judaism. There is a clear attempt from this point to disconnect totally from any Jewish person who believed in Jesus Christ. They even began a curse towards them in their daily prayers . Before this time mainly Jews were what comprised the Church; but as many rejected Christ and some beat Paul and others (as Jesus said they would) a feeling developed that all Jews reject Jesus and Gentiles accept Him. But during the New Testament period it was still believed that the Jews were Abraham's Seed and they made no bones about that. They preached and believed that THEY were the elect of God by birth right.

Then come the Gentiles into the Church and have to deal with the teachings of the Jews that no doubt harassed the early Church on the right hand and the left. It became necessary to demonstrate the true nature of 'election'. Election is "IN HIM."

Ephesians 1:4-5:

4. According as he hath chosen us [u]in him[/u] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [u]by Jesus Christ to himself[/u], according to the good pleasure of his will,

Verse 6 also states, "In the beloved." We are chosen "in Him" and our predestination is "by Jesus Christ to Himself" so that we might be accepted "in the beloved." The key here is "in Christ" and the plan was from the foundation of the World.

This was a necessary teaching to bring correction to the Jews claiming their status as Abraham's Seed all the time. Jesus said that God of stones could raise up children unto Abraham. It is not hard to lay claim to something by natural birth; but the Kingdom is not entered by first birth, but by second birth. When we are born again of the Spirit and thereby baptized 'INTO' Jesus Christ we become one of the elect of God. Christ was the Chosen One and we, being 'in Him' are partakers of that chosen-ness. Gentiles did not come into the Kingdom because God had to have a backup plan. Romans tells us clearly that it was for to provoke the Jews to jealousy. God had already figured this all our before the foundation of the world.

So we as the Gentiles are not 'plan b'. We are all part of 'plan a' to deliver humanity from the clutches of sin and share in the inheritance of Christ. There was only ever one God- the God of the Jews and the God of the Gentiles. He was the God of the Gentiles all along. This is made clear in Romans 1-3 as some responded rightly to the voice of conscience and the Law written on their heart. That which was called 'uncircumcision' by that which is called the Circumcision- was in reality the [u]true[/u] 'Circumcision.' Why? Because they did the Lord's will though they were branded as 'dogs' or 'Gentiles' (The Goyim). And the [u]True Circumcision[/u] as far as God was concerned judged the ones who had the promises and had been entrusted with the Oracles of God because they did not walk in the light that they knew. Like Jesus told the people, "If the mighty works which are done here had been done in Nineveh they would have repented in sackloth and ashes." They did not respond rightly to the light of the Law, conscience, written on their heart or the host of oracles and miracles intended to bring them to saving faith.

So teaching on predesdination when seen rightly are not so much as many have supposed; they were necessary teaching in a time that we cannot relate to. So when we try to understand them in our context we get all confused. But they made perfect sense to the Gentiles in Paul's day and they did not cause the Theological uproar and assaults on God's character that they often do today. We have to ask, "who was these statements [i]originally[/i] written to? When we understand that we can grasp what was happening without going off the deep end.

Mangan wrote:
Whats the big difference God is still the One who predestine? Explain? Are you describing an active God or a passive One?

Both, and then some... :-)

RobertW

So teaching on predesdination when seen rightly are not so much as many have supposed; they were necessary teaching in a time that we cannot relate to. So when we try to understand them in our context we get all confused. But they made perfect sense to the Gentiles in Paul's day and they did not cause the Theological uproar and assaults on God's character that they often do today. We have to ask, "who was these statements originally written to? When we understand that we can grasp what was happening without going off the deep end.

Thank you for posting this.

How often do you find this to be the case?

Have we always had this tendency to over analyze, or is it more in modern times?

RobertW
interesting point!

The problem with the Eph. text is that we still count it as containing the inerrant word of God.

Still the problem is that there are a lot of people who is not in Christ and a lot who never will be.

The reality of predestination still remains..

Magnus :-o