HomeFree89
Apr 21, 2007
If God predestined some to be saved and go to Heaven, wouldn't that basically mean He sent some to Hell when they never had a chance? Why would God predestine some to Hell?
Jordan
If God predestined some to be saved and go to Heaven, wouldn't that basically mean He sent some to Hell when they never had a chance? Why would God predestine some to Hell?
Jordan
when you ask the question "IF God predestined." what scriptures or reason do you have to believe or think that God would ever do such a thing?
are you looking at romans 8:29 or romans 2:12. or are there other scriptures that are causing these questions? before i post my understanding of these scriptures id be curious to hear what verses youre looking at.
Jordan may I suggest a listening to these messages[url=http://faithbibleonline.net/MP3s/The%20History%20and%20Theology%20of%20Calvinism/26%20-%20Predestination.mp3]Predestination Dr Curt Daniel
If you would like a very thorough and easy to understand History of Calvinism, here is a link to messages on it[url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/histtheocalvin.html]The History And Theology of Calvinism
Many blessings to you as you wrestle through these questions, He will guide you brother.
bb6868 wrote:
when you ask the question "IF God predestined." what scriptures or reason do you have to believe or think that God would ever do such a thing?
are you looking at romans 8:29 or romans 2:12. or are there other scriptures that are causing these questions? before i post my understanding of these scriptures id be curious to hear what verses youre looking at.
I didn't have any verses in mind really when I asked this question. The reason I asked it is because I don't see how Calvinist get their form of predestination from the verses that do mention predestination in the Bible.
Jordan
Thanks RL, I'll check into the links you gave me. :-)
Jordan
I pray you hear the truth in the words I speak and not judge by what it seems to sound like or come off as.
You have a "foundation" you start out with. You say, "Everyone must have a chance to be saved before they die." As a result, the rest of your understanding, is twisted and distorted and you cannot understand predestination because of it.
However, that isn't scriptual. The Bible never teaches that every human being will have a chance to be saved. Rather that is a demonic doctrine, sentimentalism from a wicked heart, a lie. God has purposely chosen a great majority of His creation to be fit vessels for destruction. Why? That He might "show His wrath" and "make His power known."
Yet why must God show His wrath and make His power known by casting the wicked into hell before the world began? That is such a profound question that our finite minds can only touch, not grasp. It is my oppinion that on that final day when He casts the wicked down and destroys all that came against Him, the saints will see something they never fathomed or imagined about God. They will see glory untold. The moment God casts the predestined vessel of wrath down to hell, the moment creation stands to applaud God because He has rid the earth of one vessel of wrath, even the apostles' Peter, James, and John will know God in a way they never dreamed of.
So why must God predestine some to hell? Because it is the only wise way. It is the wisest way from the mind of the infinite God whos wisdom has no limits for Him to "show His wrath" and "make His power known." It is the infintely loving way, no other way would demonstrate a shade of the love of Christ, if Christ did not do this...you ask, How could that be? Well, wait till you stand before Him on that day and I'm sure we will both see how loving Christ is when He casts the wicked, whom He foreordained to destruction, into the everlasting hell, prepared for the devil and his angels. Also, it is the infintely good way. You may say that God foreordaining some to hell isnt the infintely good way, there is a shade of black in that, there is a degree of badness to it. Yet, who are you to question the Almighty One? If God so declares it to be the infintely good way, then how dare a puny one like you or like me raise our fingers up and stick it in the face of the Him who should shew us away by His breathe.
God does send people to hell who never had a chance. You may call it unloving but I call your heart, wickedly sentimental, not biblically sound. You may call it stupid but I call it the most wisest and most glorious way, for time will tell, when you see Him do it!
Now the important thing is to not go over to the extreme and say "since God has chosen some and we cannot know who they are, we can do what we want."
That isn't so because Scripture elsewhere says to fear God and keep His commandments because He'll bring every work into judgement. It says to choose this day whom you will serve. Will you serve your lusts, your sins, your pleasures, your wicked heart, your false gods, or will you turn from your vile wretched self, your sins, your devils, your Satan, and turn to the living Christ? Will you repent and believe on Jesus.
Here is how we can know who are the elect of God and who are not: Presently, who believes on Christ? If there has ever been an ounce of faith in Christ, a small trust wholly upon Christ to save their souls from this wrath of God, this destruction, this predestination to hell, then that is the elect! If you believe on Christ, you are elected! If you believe not, your are condemned and not elected untill you believe upon Christ and then you can be fully persuaded that God has chosen you from the foundation of the world. So do you believe, do you trust in Christ? Thats what matters, lets not gain simply head knowledge of such a glorious doctrine but lets put it into practice and do it!
Out of all doctrines of the Bible, this one is perhaps my favorite.
God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, "0 Lord, Thou knowest." Those things belong to the deep and mysterious Profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints.
A.W. Tozer
HomeFree89 wrote:
God predestined some to be saved and go to Heaven, wouldn't that basically mean He sent some to Hell when they never had a chance? Why would God predestine some to Hell?
The ones that He foreknew wouldn't receive the love of the truth[b]2Thes 2:10b
paulmcg1 wrote:
You have a "foundation" you start out with. You say, "Everyone must have a chance to be saved before they die." As a result, the rest of your understanding, is twisted and distorted and you cannot understand predestination because of it.
paulmcg1 wrote:
God has purposely chosen a great majority of His creation to be[b]fit vessels for destruction[/b] .
We have our own choice weather to be vessels of mercy or vessels of wrath according to this next couple of verses:
[b]2Tim 2:20-21[b]:21 Then if anyone purifies himself
We have a choice to be either a vessel to honor or a vessel of wrath.
paulmcg1 wrote:
Yet why must God show His wrath and make His power known by casting the wicked into hell before the world began?
The quote has hightlights to point out the flaws
These next verses go against the wisdom and love that HomeFree89 preasented.paulmcg1 wrote:
So why must God predestine some to hell? Because it is[b]the only wise way[/b] . It is[b]the wisest way[/b] from the mind of the infinite God whos wisdom has no limits for Him to "show His wrath" and "make His power known." It is the infintely loving way, no other way would demonstrate a shade of[b]the love of Christ[/b] , if Christ did not do this...you ask, How could that be?
[b]James 3:17[b]the wisdom that is from above[b]full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality[b]AND[b]Corinth 13:4-8a[b]:5[b]:6[b]:7[b]:8a
paulmcg1 wrote:
whom He foreordained to destruction, into the everlasting hell, prepared for the devil and his angels.
paulmcg1 wrote:
God does send people to hell who never had a chance. You may call it unloving but I call your heart, wickedly sentimental, not biblically sound. You may call it stupid but I call it the most wisest and most glorious way, for time will tell, when you see Him do it!
Logic,
A lot of those quotes aren't from me. :-( You might want to check and see who said the things you quoted.
Jordan
brother Jordan,
maybe these verses help you,
Romans 2:11-12
for there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged bt the law
bill
Oopps, I am so, totaly sorry! I will edit right now.
Please forgive me.
In Star Trek: The Next Generation, this used to be called a "Temporal Anomaly"...
Seriously though...
HomeFree89 asked
If God predestined some to be saved and go to Heaven, wouldn't that basically mean He sent some to Hell when they never had a chance? Why would God predestine some to Hell?
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, AND THEY SHALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life... It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not... Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (JOHN 6:44-65)
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers"... And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (JOHN 10:1-16)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.That sounds to me like you make the choice and it doesn't seem that you don't have any chance to get to heaven.
The way Calvinism teaches predestination really doesn't seem to be in the Bible.
Jordan
P.S.
Logic, no problem man, just wanted to correct the mistake. ;-)
God has purposely chosen a great majority of His creation to be fit vessels for destruction.
Vessels of destruction are would-have-been vessels of honour that refuse to be molded to their original design :-
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Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: [b]so he made it [u]again
...
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 [b]If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
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God clearly states here that he responds to man's decisions, and changes his destiny accordingly.
PassingThru
Hey Jordan,
The key is in Romans 8:29. Once you understand this you will understand the answer to your question.
It is actually very simple, you'll see.
Romans 8:29
"For whom he (God) did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son"
First, lets define some Bible concepts in this verse:
what does it mean "God did foreknow" someone?
when the Bible uses the word God "knows" someone it means God is friends with them. (Matthew 7:21-23, notice it says "I never knew you")
So when it says "foreknow" its like God saying, "Jordan I knew that I would know you." ("Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" Jeremiah 1:5 "thee" mean "you" only in sigular form)
Okay, got that part. Now what did God do with those that "He did foreknow"? Do you know?
In Romans 8:29 it says, "whom he (God) did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son"
First of all, what does predestinate mean? You know this, destiny means what you will do. God predestinating you means God choosing what you will do and God providing everything you need to accoplish your destiny. And what is that destiny? What is it that God appointed you to be, and to do, and to live?
The answer is in Romans 8:29 again: "For whom he (God) did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son"
There it is, "to be conformed to the image of his Son" to be just like Jesus, to be a son of God. To do the works of the Son of God. To be free from sin, to be more than conquerer through him that loved us. To be perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. To preach the gospel. To lead people from darkness to light. To be perfected through suffering. And die and spend eternity in heaven with God.
That is the destiny and privilage of every saint on Earth. And in Heaven glory to come.
Now that we have laid the foundation, we can answer your question.
Does God predestinate some to be sinners and live a wicked life and go to hell in the end? Bible never says that, but you can come to the conclusion that God does predestinate people to go to hell. Why? Because they chose to not seek God and find Him. They chose not to do God's will. You can truthfully say, "For whom he (God) did NOT foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of THE DEVIL" because those people chose to turn away from the light. If God did not predestinate them to go to hell, then God would not be loving!!! Love MUST hate evil. if love did not hate evil, love would not be love. So "God is angry with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11) because all they do is sin. And if sinners don't repent and turn to God then God will have to get rid of the CAUSE of the problem and send the sinner to hell.
This is so important to know. Jesus sends us out to preach the Gospel to those who don't want to hear it, to those who have turned away from God. In their heart all have turned away from God, there is none that seek the Lord, no not one.
Whoever of you who reads this, if you do not know God come to Him before it is too late. Confess your sins and forsake them and start doing the will of God. You have too long been living your own way, now is the time to do God's will. And if you come to Christ to know Him and obey Him there is this promice for you that He will manifest Himself to you (John 14:21)
If you will search for Him, He will be found by you. If you give yourself up to Him, He will free you from your sins and write His law on your heart and you will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
If you know God, it is time to "reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Time to take up the sword of the Spirit and fight. How? "The heart of the righteous studieth to answer" (Proverbs 15:28) And
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper." (Psalm 1:1-3)
And do the work of the Lord as we learn. Persuade men as we go, win souls while we are yet alive and there is breath in us.
Study, Rely on God, Act on it. Such is the privilage and duty of every saint.
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