In Regards to the concept of "Total Deprvity"

In Romans 3 it speaks of man's sinful nature, this spoken of a specific group of men, as a result of, in Chapter 1, he-man didn't want to retain God in his thinking: Romans 1:21 (KJV) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. This would indicate that man, before "as it is written", knew God and obeyed Him, howbeit in varying degrees.

So my question is where in any of Paul's writings has it that man couldn't return to God. I rather read that he would not, not that he could not.

So my question is where in any of Paul's writings has it that man couldn't return to God. I rather read that he would not, not that he could not.

I think that is the idea behind moral depravity.

Know one (or so I think), not even Paul, is saying that man (in his fallen state) has this desire to obey God, but cannot find the strength to obey. Fallen man chooses to reject God, because he is corrupt and condemned in Adam.

As Paul states, we were all enemies of God. Children of disobedience. Condemned under the law, not because we loved God's law and could not obey it, but because we knew God's law (in come capacity) and chose not to obey it.

We were all in need of a righteousness that was not our own. Perfect obedience.

Know one (or so I think), not even Paul, is saying that man (in his fallen state) has this desire to obey God, but cannot find the strength to obey.

But why couldn't he find the strength, God didn't make him that way. Many knew Him, ["knew" meaning they had a relationship with Him]. Therefore, man brought we what are calling "Total Depravity", upon himself.

Fallen man chooses to reject God, becasue he is corrupt and condemned in Adam.

As Paul states, we were all enemies of God. Children of disobedience. Condemned under the law, not because we loved God's law and could not obey it, but because we knew God's law (in come capacity) and chose not to obey it.

I believe your last says it all.

But why couldn't he find the strength, God didn't make him that way. Many knew Him, ["knew" meaning they had a relationship with Him]. Therefore, man brought we what are calling "Total Depravity", upon himself.

I believe, Romans 1, when Paul is talking about men knowing God, he is talking about man seeing God in creation, being able to know that there is a God in creation and yet still rejecting Him.

There is a revelation of God in creation. Not of Christ, but of the fact that there is a creator, and yet even with that revelation men (all men) do not glorify Him.

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I think you are correct. According to the scripture, man did bring total depravity upon himself. Adam disobeyed God and through his disobedience, sin and death came upon all men.

That's too broad a statement to make, don't you think? Not all "fallen men" made that decision. Some came to Him and still come to Him

According to Jesus, the only reason anyone comes to God is if God himself draws them.

As Wesley states;

"Tis mercy all immense and free and oh my God it found out me"

Mahoney wrote:

But why couldn't he find the strength, God didn't make him that way. Many knew Him, ["knew" meaning they had a relationship with Him]. Therefore, man brought we what are calling "Total Depravity", upon himself.

I believe, Romans 1, when Paul is talking about men knowing God, he is talking about man seeing God in creation, being able to know that there is a God in creation and yet still rejecting Him

There is a revelation of God in creation. Not of Christ, but of the fact that there is a creator, and yet even with that revelation men (all men) do not glorify Him.

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I think you are correct. According to the scripture, man did bring total depravity upon himself. Adam disobeyed God and through his disobedience, sin and death came upon all men.

Indeed, Sin did but not man's sin's he commits of his own freewill, for which he is responsible for.

According to Jesus, the only reason anyone comes to God is if God himself draws them.

Well, if you desire to rip that from context, you might have point. However, context proves that to be incomplete, doesn't it?

Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few?

Please explain?

Well, if you desire to rip that from context, you might have point. However, context proves that to be incomplete, doesn't it?

Please explain? How is that taken out of context?

You have your questions in reverse order.

Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few?

Obviously these men weren't depraved or unrighteous. Therefore, all men weren't.

Having to do with God drawing men to Jesus:

Well, if you desire to rip that from context, you might have point. However, context proves that to be incomplete, doesn't it?

John 6:43-45 (ASV) 6: Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.

John 14:3-11 (ASV) 14: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go, ye know the way. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few

Where do you find that these men were not, at one time, unrighteous.

The scriptures that Paul uses to declare that,
"there is none righteous, no not one, come from the Old Testament. He is quoting the Old Testament when he makes that conclusion.

Then he explains how Abraham, an unrighteous man, became righteous. By faith in a promise.

Again, where do you find that those men were not, at one time, unrighteous.

Mahoney wrote:

Enoch, Noah, Abel, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, to name but a few

Where do you find that these men were not, at one time, unrighteous.

The scriptures that Paul uses to declare that,
"there is none righteous, no not one, come from the Old Testament. He is quoting the Old Testament when he makes that conclusion.

Then he explains how Abraham, an unrighteous man, became righteous. By faith in a promise.

Again, where do you find that those men were not, at one time, unrighteous.

PreachParsly wrote:

You use only Abraham as your example. Who told you Abraham was unrighteous? Where is it written that he was? Where does say that Abraham believed God simply and only because of a promise made to him?

Was he righteous before he was reckoned righteous?

Was Noah righteous before God chose him to build the Ark?

JaySaved wrote:
Welcome back Ormly.

Thanks Jay. I'd like to share some stuff I believe to be helpful in our journey. Hope you all don't beat me up too much. :-(

JaySaved wrote:
Ormly, I gladly welcome you back and I pray that we would all be encouraged in our discussions. I would love to hear sometime about all God has done in you and through you during your time away. Also, what lead you to come back to post at Sermonindex again.

God Bless.

If I spoke of it as a blog I'm Sure it would be received as arrogance. Suffice to say God has been gracious to me to my understanding of the priviledge we have in Him that has been sidetracked by the enemy who seeks to keep us bound up with the single issue of redemption; making heaven to be the goal.
.......It is not.

But relax, I am not here to correct anyone...just maybe a litle adjustment. ;-)

Thanks Roaring. ...and likewise to you.

What makes anyone believe that no one could be righteous after the fall of Adam. His disobedience didn't strip him of his ability to be righteous. What it did was strip him of a righteousness he possessed that would have eventually allowed him entrance into the literal presence of God; his own Mt. Transfiguration experience, if you will. In that regard, because of his disobedience, his own human righteousness would now always be as filthy rags.
Entrance into God's Holy presence demands righteousness equal to Himself. Adam gave away his ever being able to do that....... Enter the man, Jesus....the second Adam.