Adam, Was he created "independent man"?

Dear Ormly,

I am beginning to wonder what you are seeking. Are you looking for an answer to this question, or just an opportunity to promote your own ideas? I hope your questions are sincere, and I am going to assume they are.

What can be safely assumed from scripture to be the truth that can be built upon?

All scripture is about Jesus Christ. In John 5:39-40, it says, "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." In John 17:3, Jesus clearly indicates that eternal life is knowledge of God. This means that Jesus was saying that we cannot have a knowledge of God from scripture. If anyone desires knowledge of God, they must goto Him.

This is important. This means that we cannot impart truth from scripture unless it is first revealed to us by Jesus Christ. If you or anyone else desires to know the truth concerning scripture, you must goto Jesus. Do not ask men this question. They can tell you many things, even the truth, but only Jesus can reveal truth to you. Only Christ can show you the way.

You need to ask Him this question.

f we can conclude he was then did he ever lose his independence; his ability to make choices?

In the beginning, God created man and God had an obvious relationship with man. Man was not independent. Rather, man depended on God for all things.

When man fell, then man was separated from God and made independent from God. However, man can never be totally independent because "It is not good for man to be alone." We were not created to be independent. We must depend on other sources for existence.

For example, you must eat and work to live. If you should just sit and not eat, then you will die. Humans are constantly dependent on other things for life.

As far as "free will" is concerned, there are a great many people that misinterpret this idea. A will is simply a wish or a desire. Free will is not free choice. Free will is something internal.

Free will implies that we may desire whatever we wish. However, just because we desire something, that doesn't mean we can choose it. I may desire to win the lottery. Does that mean it will happen? No. Obviously, I don't have free choice. I might desire to flap my arms and fly, but I cannot make that happen.

Free will means that we as humans can choose who we worship with our heart. That is all. We have the freedom to love, to have faith, and to give trust. We do not have the freedom to do whatever we want. In fact, humans are easily manipulated and controlled by our beliefs. The Devil uses us all the time by telling us lies.

Humans are extremely dependent creatures. We are weak and ignorant. We are born without any knowledge and must learn everything. As we grow and learn, we develop beliefs. For instance, our parents might have told us about Santa Claus. When they did, we had to decide whether or not to believe them. Because we imparted them trust and love, we do believe them. We accept them as the authority over us. We are dependent on them. In this way, we allow them to control us.

This means a child is not in control. We do not have complete freedom. We must make decide whether or not we will believe something when we hear it. This is our freedom. We may choose what will control us or not. When the Devil comes and tells us a lie, will we believe him or not? Obviously, if we do not know God, then we will easily be deceived. If we don't know God, how will we know that the Devil is deceiving us? First, we must know God by the revelation of Christ. This means, we need Jesus to reveal God to us, then we may be safe from lies and deception.

A great many people go around thinking they are mighty and independent beings, when in truth they are being controlled by the Devil. He has them caged in a bed of lies. The bible says they are deluded. Only Christ can set us free from this.

So, to answer your question, man is not independent. We have never been.

Hope this helps to answer your question,

Blake

Can you answer that?

To surrender all means we surrender everything....

heart, mind, body, soul,
money, time, resources, possessions,
control, authority, will, understanding,
self, person, life, spirit,
family, friends, enemies,

and most importantly: sin. We surrender our sin to Jesus. This means we don't try to control our sin, we give it to Jesus to control.

To surrender all means that we lay down everything unto the feet of Jesus Christ so that He may rule over us with complete authority inward and outward.

In Christ,
Blake

Then you must mean one's independence to be included in that, correct? Of course you do.

Yes, if indeed we have any.

Blake

Well, do we or don't we?

What do you mean by independence?

The word independence implies that we do not have any dependence. Humans are extremely dependent creatures. We must eat in order to live. We are dependent on food for life. In that sense, we are not independent.

In Christ,
Blake

Farewell then.

The answer to your question is no. Humans are not independent in any sense of the word.

The one freedom we do have is the ability to choose whom we are dependent upon. We never have and never will have access to our own buttons. But we can choose who sits at our keyboard.

In Christ,
Blake

What can be safely assumed from scripture to be the truth that can be built upon? If we can conclude he was then did he ever lose his independence; his ability to make choices?

I believe your question here may just be an extension of thought from the Total Depravity thread and that this question perhaps reveals a misunderstanding of what Total Depravity is.

My understanding (limited as it is) of Total Depravity is that our whole being (will, heart, mind, body) is corrupted. It says that, as a result of the Fall, sin is something in our very nature and that we are sinful apart from our actions.

However, being thus corrupted does not mean that we can no longer make choices, or our heart can no longer feel, or our mind can no longer think. These faculties remain, but the governing principle behind them is now depraved. Depravity simply means that mankind has no inclination to redeem itself.

This doesn't mean that man can't do good things or take civil actions or take even good external religious actions but Scripture does seem to make it clear that no unregenerate person can do any act that is acceptable with God (see Romans 8:8 and Hebrews 11:6).

In Christ,

Ron

I'm finished, Been. I won't chase your rabbits. You figure it out from here.

Perhaps someone has something they would like to contribute. If not then I will let the thread die; chaulk it off to it being a poor question.

Ormly wrote:
Good. I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.

Why are you acting like this? If you honestly don't have an attitude problem, please try to express yourself in a manner that reflects your attitude. I understand completely that is hard to do, but things like this just don't need to be said.

The term "Total Depravity" is no where even hinted at in the scriptures as applying to an involuntary condition placed upon man. That is not arguable from scripture. We have proven that.

I can't speak for others here but I can say that you haven't proven it to me. Perhaps the term is not directly found in Scripture, the same can be said for the term 'Trinity', and yet the both doctrines are built upon the careful study of many verses.

How so??? You mean you can't genuinely love your kids, wife, et al, would not lay down your life for them? Depravity says you wouldn't, so there is something radically wrong with your understanding or that presented for us to accept as gospel truth.

Again, I think you're misunderstanding Total Depravity. As I said before it does not mean that we cannot perform natural good. It does mean that our good deeds fall far short of the goal. It means we all flunked the course, we all got 'F's' so to speak. So, as an example, it doesn't matter that you got 40% of the test right(you loved your kids) and I got 20% right(I didn't love my kids), we both flunked.

That could erradicate the sin of Adam's trangression is all your above refers to and to what I whole heartly agree. Thus, the distinction needs be made between Sin and sins. Sins we have everything to do with; we are responsible for them, Adam's Sin, we do not. Only Jesus could and did handle that one. Thank God!!

I may be mistaken but I believe this was the error of Pelagianism, perhaps some others could help here.

That leaves us now with the reason for creation and begs the question would Christ still have come to Earth if Adam would not have transgressed? Would the cross still be necessary in that scenario?

Certainly the principle of the cross (some call it the way of the cross) and conformity to the image of Christ has always been in view (see Ephesians 1:4-5 & Romans 8:29). It is the driving principle within the Godhead and is intended to be the principle operating within man. It is the principle of living by, for, and unto Another. The work of the cross was necessary to deal a death blow to the fallen race of Adam. The way of the cross which the new man daily embraces, is an eternal principle. The historic cross was needed because Adam chose not to embrace that principle of the cross.

Although this principle of the eternal Cross is everywhere written into the very fabric of the universe, blinded man, limited by sin and his natural senses, could not understand the Cross-principle of self-giving without an outward demonstration.

For this very reason the Father robed His Son in human flesh and sent Him to walk among men.

In Christ,

Ron

Dear Ormly,

From the beginning, I asked...

I am beginning to wonder what you are seeking. Are you looking for an answer to this question, or just an opportunity to promote your own ideas?

Finally, you have answered in truth:

I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.

I also think you have mistaken me. I have not accused you of anything. Who am I to accuse anyone? I am nothing. This is what I said:

Please do not take offense to this. The philosophy that you are speaking of sounds much like Buddhism.

This was said for your benefit, in hopes that you might be inclined to see if it is true. By researching Buddhism, you might see how Christ was different.

Why not just say: "I never looked at it like that before", Or, "Hmmmm, interesting"?

Because Ormly, we are speaking of an essential Christian doctrine. There is only one way to see it. Jesus Christ came to save people who could not save themselves. Humanity is incapable. There is no way, no possibility, apart from Jesus Christ for anyone to be righteous. Only He is righteous.

You can argue, debate, question, propose all that you want. But anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior believes that Jesus Christ is the only way.

SermonIndex in the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16222&forum=16&0]Statement of Faith[/url] says this: "all human beings are dead in sin and utterly lost"

This is what it means to be a Christian. We believe that we are completely and utterly lost without Christ.

R.C. Sproul said this in His book [url=http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/depravity.html]"Essential Truths of the Christian Faith"[/url]:

"For total depravity means that I and everyone else are depraved or corrupt in the totality of our being. There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin. Our minds, our wills, and our bodies are affected by evil. We speak sinful words, do sinful deeds, have impure thoughts. Our very bodies suffer from the ravages of sin."

In Christ,
Blake

Dear Ormly,

I am sorry if you feel as though I am questioning your salvation. That is not my intention or my place.

*edit*

I think I have said enough. I will leave.

In love,
Blake