Name dropping... poor way to discuss doctrine

Leonard Ravenhill once said... oh wait... nevermind.

Brother, scripture is my final authority. I hope you know that and I hope that is clear in my writings. If it is not then I must correct that. But I hope you know that scripture teaches us to imitate others who have shown an example of Christ. Paul says in:

1 Corinthians 11:1, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

1 Corinthians 4:16, "Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me (Paul)."

Hebrews 6:12, "That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

Philippians 3:17, "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample."

I do not go to men as my final authority, but I do however see their walk with God and I strive to imitate/follow it as they are showing forth the example of Christ.

I 'dropped' their names to show you and others that many Godly men who have an example of Christ-like love have believed in the doctrine of Calvinism. To call Calvinism a 'sect or heresy' is to call these men heretics.

But do you understand the use of the verses I quoted?

In 1 Cor. 4:16 Paul says to follow him or imitate him in some translations.

Mike

Christ's commandments or Paul's opinions?

There is no reason to break apart something that is of a cohesive whole. That Paul had the integrity to mention those few things that were 'not the Lord' doesn't make them merely opinion.

Paul says, "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me." (I COR 4:16)

[i]Of my example[/i]

[b]Be ye followers of me[/b] - Imitate me; copy my example; listen to my admonitions. Probably Paul had particularly in his eye their tendency to form parties; and here admonishes them that he had no disposition to form sects, and entreats them in this to imitate his example. A minister should always so live as that he can, without pride or ostentation, point to his own example; and entreat his people to imitate him. He should have such a confidence in his own integrity; he should lead such a blameless life; and “he should be assured that his people have so much evidence of his integrity,” that he can point them to his own example, and entreat them to live like himself. And to do this, he should live a life of piety, and should furnish such evidence of a pure conversation, that his people may have reason to regard him as a holy man.

Albert Barnes

I realize this is just the topic here; "names" but will come back to it.

"...and I think also that I have the Spirit of God." (I COR 7:40)

That is an idiom or figure of speech, certainly Paul was not in any doubt about whether he had the Holy Spirit.

There has been unfortunately many that have attempted to break apart or pit Paul against the Lord Himself, this same Lord who struck him blind and later used him, with all his background and knowledge to explain the faith even far beyond what His own closest disciples did. It is incredible that he both used it and at the same time refereed to it as 'dung' by way of comparison, [i]that I may win Christ, and be found in Him[/i].

My take on all this is that surely an over emphasis and clinging to one particular 'school of thought' or "name" would put us in the same ... ironic position that Paul spoke of;

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

But the flip-side of a 'strictly' sticking to scripture [i]mentality[/i] ... and boy does that need some qualifiers ... often breeds a very subtle form of pride, sometimes even an overt one.

I think a false perception can be made that by quoting some past fellow family member that there is an automatic agreement by bringing it forth. Often it can be just to consider and ponder it to put it out for consideration, to see it before you and then to also compare it to scripture, other scriptures even if it is explaining a verse of scripture itself.

Of course we ought to be testing everything back to the scriptures, I am more afraid of a dismissive mindset that cannot or will not learn from those far wiser than ourselves.

I know that is really not where Krispy was going with this entirely, just some observations.

Krispy wrote:

Providing a list of teachers and theologians who agree with whatever position we're taking is a very poor way of trying to win a debate.

Amen...

When we look for comfort amongst the company of men we often limit ourselves and go no further than these men with the Scripture. So we remove the posiblity that the Lord might actually speak to us personally by way of the Scripture. Denominations are the result of this worshiping of other men.

Likewise, one cannot compare Calvin, Luther, or Tozer to Paul, John, or Ezekiel.

In Christ
Jeff

Both

One of our common pitfalls is looking for the superhero to come and make sense of all our questions right now. Because we tend to be impatient and faithless, we create idols of strong leaders. My own wrestling with this issue has been much helped by reaffirming first the authority of scripture, and then the aim of scripture..

2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." As I understand it Inspired was from the Greek word theopnuestos meaning quite literally that Scripture is "God-breathed…. expired…. breathed-out.” In other words Scripture isn’t some great book dependent of men of higher education to explain it to the masses. The Bible is the effusive miracle of an outpouring God who filled selected men with His words, communicated directly, precisely, and successfully in human language with the power to make each of us intimately, and inwardly wise unto salvation.

I realize we probably believe this already, but just in case here is a better expression of this vital idea from B.B.Warfield to help drive the point.

“What is theopnuestos is “God-Breathed” produced by the creative breath of the Almighty. And scripture is called theopnuestos in order to designate it as “God-Breathed, the product of Divine spiration, the creation of that Spirit who is in all spheres of divine activity the executive of the Godhead. The tradional translation of the word by the Latin inspiratus a Deo is no doubt also discredited, if we are to take it at the foot of the letter. It does not express a breathing into the Scriptures by God…what it affirms is that the scriptures owe their origin to an activity of God the Holy Ghost and in the highest and truest sense His creation. It is the foundation of Divine Origin that all the highest attributes of Scripture are built.”

So God is intent on, and quite capable of, speaking personally to us by His Word.

Yet we cannot dispense with being taught from other men. (Letters may be written personally by one hand, but delivered by another...) We need each other. Though in Christ we have put on the New Man with God's incorruptable seed in us, we find much of our inwardness still human and our thought processes still worldy.(I'm not talking about two natures but about immaturity and inexperience.) In Christ we are perhaps capable of being made improved in our understanding, but remain liable to misunderstanding. We are all prone to stumble over our limited comprehension, past experiences, volatile feelings, incorrect knowledge, and lack of sense. I think for this reason, the Lord graces us with one another to help compliment, complete, reprove and sharpen our understanding of the His Word. We engage one another in the Scriptures, some teaching and others learning, but all with a heart of worship and attentiveness to the Holy Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord. I think the sphere of Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ includes doctrinal humility.

So in the end we should all desire to feel the light of God's Word adding understanding to our own hearts directly…the importance of this cannot be overstated. Even so, we are not self-sufficient even in Christ! (Bears repeating...) We may indeed have the sun shining warmly down on our private fields, and the rain softening our own soil, but the fact remains some of us are better at planting and some are better at harvesting. We need help even in our own fields. So we wisely and happily submit to one another scripturally to grow fruit in our own lives.

MC

My point here is... [b]scripture[/b], not teachers or theologians, is to be our final authority on everything.

This point also came up in the tongues/baptism in the Holy Ghost thread, where I also dropped you a few names.

I agree that scripture is the final authority, however we also need to watch that we aren't being misguided by the interpretations of another unnoticed man - ourselves.

For this reason I think it is valid considering different scriptural views of noteworthy Christians, especially if they have produced definite fruit for Christ.

I think it's a bit like analyzing various Bible commentaries when trying to get a full understanding of a scripture. It doesn't mean we automatically accept the first commentary as being right.

PassingThru

Dropping names to prove scripture isn't useful. What is useful is that when a doctrine is described as heresy or dangerous and false it is perfectly legitimate to reference that the doctrine was held by a very long list of the holiest most effective evangelists who ever followed after God. If men and women much more holy and more Spirit filled than I were burned at the stake for professing a high doctrine, then I will tread much more carefully over that debate. I think that knowledge of church history and reminders of the blood shed in these debates that we tend to take so lightly is important and probably explains at least my passion in a discussion of important scriptural mysteries.

scripture , not teachers or theologians, is to be our final authority on everything.

Countless cults, false teachings, and misinterpretations are supported by these very words. When we push aside all those “untrustworthy” authorities really we make ourselves the final authority. God has placed his truth in all kinds of people – some who can see through our blind spots (just as easily as we can see THEIR blind spots). It takes humility to admit this.

we also need to watch that we aren't being misguided by the interpretations of another unnoticed man - ourselves.

I believe THAT the Bible is God's authoritative word, as do countless others who hold quite different persuasions. But I would not for a minute claim that I believe and rightly understand every aspect of it. Quite the contrary. Realizing that, I fall at the feet of my Master and ask him to expose my errors and lead me to his truth. It's a life-long process, and involves the insights that God has given others.

We’ve all heard it said, “You can make the Bible say anything you want.”

That happens when scriptures are pulled out of their context, be it literal or historical, and then interpreted through the filters of man's preconceptions – a very common error. Let’s admit, our evangelical fundamental traditions are peppered with such errors - some quite serious.

Diane