Billy Sunday

What is with his preaching style? I am not condemning it or commending it, just want to know what the purpose was it all of it?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myalbum/viewcat.php?cid=16&min=15&orderby=titleA&show=15]Billy Sunday examples[/url]

I'm not sure either, but it seems a lot of open air preachers like to imitate HIM.

Kinda like this preacher in Hendersonville NC with his signs "3 Gay Rights: AIDS, HELL & SALVATION". I wonder how many gays he has led to the Lord because of that sign?

I know what you mean.

The thing about Billy Sunday that most comes to mind is that his ministry was a major step towards the whole sinners prayer thing. Like Finney, people took hold of Sunday's methods that did not preach a massage like Finney or Sunday and trouble resulted. Their methods had a more lasting effect than anything. It also greatly accelerated the 'Star' preacher phenomena we find today.

I copied this excerpt from a study I did a few years ago.

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PREACHERS BECOMING CELEBRITIES

Perhaps we could lay much of the problem at the feet of the use of the modern day 'press'. When 'meetings' were advertised and covered in the newspapers suddenly there was an added pressure to have 'results'. After all, who wants to report that the meeting was a bust? D.L Moody preached his last sermon at the Great Convention Hall in Kansas City MO on November 16, 1899. his message title was, 'Excuses.' He died on December 22 of that same year, never seeing the 20th century. Before the days when Rex Humbard would become the father of modern day televangelism, D.L. Moody is credited with aiding in the development of the modern newspaper as they were used for creating the great wave of interest in this one very public evangelist and the meetings in general. Preachers were becoming celebrities and icons. Again, as with Finney, so with Moody, the 'new measures' of using the press was in itself not a bad thing. But is was like giving a six year old a gun for the incompetent. Some people simply cannot handle the popularity and the pressure to compromise becomes enormous for a host of reasons. Suddenly numbers were being printed in the papers. Attendances numbers and numbers of 'hopefully converted'. Notice the term again hopefully converted. This is as far as men dared to go in their reporting of numbers; but as with anything, the boldness to intrude into those things which we know not, vainly puffed up by fleshly minds, eventually took the place of reason.

Before we move to our next point I must again state the importance of understanding the 'pressure' of reporting positive results in the press. This pressure was no doubt a major cause of the erosion of the criteria degeneration for what it meant to be saved. The world was becoming 'quantity minded' and not quality minded. The industrial revolution was weighing in heavily to the whole philosophy of life. More, more, more... faster, faster, faster....

You can Meet a 'STAR'

As the "altar call'' became more common, the numbers that came forward increased. During the 1800's, the act of going forward to receive prayer was never considered the means of salvation. But through the changing of generations, the Biblical understanding of the sovereignty of God was slowly replaced by a modern "quick-fix" mentality. The "struggle of faith" and "praying through" was replaced by signing your name on a decision card. Billy Sunday was a very popular professional baseball player before becoming a minister. His method of preaching broke the mold by any standard. At times he would even have a baseball bat on the platform and utilize it during the preaching. He started out in the beginning like D.L. Moody, with the emphasis on individual counseling in the after meeting. But by the end of his career this was fading or faded completely.
Billy Sunday asked folk to come forward to shake his hand as an indicator that they were turning to Christ. This marked a strong turning point in the way in which altar calls changed. Consider how he was a ball player and many wanted to 'shake his hand'. No doubt many were sincere also. __Early reports in the 1800's suggested that only 10% of the persons who went forward in an altar call were "hopefully saved." As the decades past, the percentage grew to as much as 30%. Then, much later, the number might be 50%. Until finally, by 1918, the newspapers reporting that everyone who "hit the sawdust trail" to shake Billy Sunday's hand were saved. The objectivity was all but gone and the emphasis on folk actually being born of the Spirit was being replaced with a simple decision.

Billy Graham has been a great servant of God, and many have been saved thru his ministry... but that does not excuse his ecumenical activities.

God seems to use what we make available to Him. I often wonder why God uses certain people and even messages that I think are way off in left field. Then I have to really wonder; why would He use me? What can He do with my words? So He takes us and uses us for His purpose, but that does not dismiss our need to be a willing vessel and study to show ourselves approved- rightly dividing the word. I also think we need to be careful how we pattern our lives after people. We need to preach the Gospel as it was given to the apostles. If every generation puts their 2 cents in- how long until it is corrupted?

Billy Sunday has been a tremendous influence on my life (just look at my avatar). I have never read a Sunday peice on theology, and I kind of doubt he did one. To tell you the truth I would probably not go out of my way to study all his theology, because it wasn't his brand of theology that was so impressive. It was his passion to take the message of repentance to as many people as possible. This he did, preaching in person to about 100 million people.

You know, he probably had so many thousands converted under his words because he was just a rugged, grown-up kid who gave up a life of stardom to serve God. The thousands of farmers and laborers who came to see Billy did not come to hear a Bambi story, they came because the word on the street was that God had set a man on fire, and let's all go watch him burn.

I, personally would rather have watched Billy with all his antics than about 99.9% of the preaching that is out there today. A radical showman he may have been, but there was no sleeping, and there was no shortage of condemnation of sin. I have never heard of anyone who preached about the realities of alcohol and its place in our society like he did.

Curtis Hutson talked in his sermon, "If My People" about Billy Sunday's work from the book 'Billy Sunday, The Man and His Message': "I read where 48,000 people were saved during that revival meeting. And I read that after the revival was over, one church got 1000 new members, and their building would only seat 250. They had to build a brand new auditorium to house the converts that came out of the Billy Sunday revival. I also read that during the 3 months Billy Sunday was in Allegheny County that there were 600 less people in the jails of Allegheny County that there had been in the same 3 month period before Billy Sunday came to town."

Rough around the edges, not refined or polished, but he did more personal missionary work than probably all of us on this website have done combined. Please correct me if you think I am wrong on that, but I suspect it is the truth.

Thanks letsgetbusy for sharing that. It is impressive what God does in some of the most peculiar 8-) of men...kind of gives me hope!

Curtis Hutson talked in his sermon, "If My People" about Billy Sunday's work from the book 'Billy Sunday, The Man and His Message': "I read where 48,000 people were saved during that revival meeting.

Note what you wrote here, "48,000 people were saved." Before Billy Sunday this type of language did not exist in the Church. The term 'hopefully converted' was used of folk who made some sort of 'decision' for Christ that appeared genuine. Now, I am not ANTI-Billy Sunday by any means. I am just trying to point out the fact that many preachers followed his methods and became what were known as "Billy Sunday type preachers."

The issue at hand is a de-emphasis on the genuine born again experience. It began with Finney and continued until Billy Graham. Stats to me are unimpressive because of the destructiveness of the direction this methodology brought to the Church. Ministers began being viewed as high profile stars that were to be revered and would draw crowds with their 'name'. I saw this happening in 2004 with Billy Graham. It was said that we would add to our church by participating in the Crusade. We were one of the closest churches to the stadium. Within walking distance. Not a single soul was added to our church from that crusade and we prepared for months for that.

A massage that seeks to get folk to come forward to make some sort of decision is part and parcel of the strategy to process high volumes of folk making a decision for Christ. These people do not need to come forward and shake a hand or repeat a prayer and be given some literature to help them. They needed to be prayed with until they had [i]received forgiveness of sins[/i]. They needed to pray until something took place in them by the Holy Spirit that would forever alter their life.

This process was marginalized in the days of Billy
Sunday until today it is almost unheard of that a person comes to Christ as an anxious inquirer and is counseled and prayed with until they pass from death to life. This is why we spend years propping folks up in the Church; because they never truly received remission of sins or a relationship with God or the Holy Spirit. They prayed a prayer or raised their hand or came down front as a public display.

And this is the challenge of our times. We have to be able to separate the men and what he has done for God from the methods that he used that no doubt were never intended to make their way into the Church. This is why it is of dire importance that people DO study their bibles and not use the excuse that they don't have an education in theology or something. As the steward of God you are REQUIRED to rightly divide the word of truth. You are to study to show yourself approved of God. We are to give attendance to our calling and the necessity of delivering the Gospel as we have received it through the word of God from the apostles. This is another problem we get into. We deliver the Goepel as received from Charles Finney, John Wesley, D. L. Moody, or Billy Graham. We exalt the men above the word of God. The word is the final authority and no matter how many stats the accumulate that gives them no more authority against the word than a small town preacher.

I hear it at times, "Well, how many people have you brought to Christ?" As if to say, "Who do you think you are questioning the methods of a man who has seen millions saved?" But the reality is we know that if millions were really saved in the New Testament sense 400 turned the world upside down in Acts- where are our results? This is what Leonard Ravenhill discusses in his interview. Have these millions turned anything upside down? Have they received since they believed? Why do we have to keep propping them up to keep them 'coming to church'? Where is their desire for God?

That is NOT to say that God has not used these men because He has even in my own life. The point is that we need to get back to New Testament salvation and to do that we are going to have to admit that some of what we received from these great men of the faith was not at all in line with the word. We have to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. These men are not in a place where we just look at their results and follow them like were blind or something. We have to give account to God on what He has revealed in the word. We have to preach the Gospel as it is written in the book. Walking the sawdust trail to shake a man's hand is not quite what one could call being born again or even receiving forgiveness of sins. Yet, multitudes believe this is it. I went down front and I'm good to go now. We have to prayerfully find a way to challenge all of this and fast. if some of these men's methods have to be undone for the sake of the Gospel- it may get some people heated- but if that's what it takes let the process begin. Personally I have been on the front line taking some of that heat for a few years now. It ain't popular to say that what some of these men were doing was not getting the job done. It makes the messenger look arrogant and the message look destructive. But this is where we are and we had may as well face up to it now. If we keep doing what we are doing we will keep getting the same results.

Well said Robert

if some of these men's methods have to be undone for the sake of the Gospel- it may get some people heated- but if that's what it takes let the process begin. Personally I have been on the front line taking some of that heat for a few years now. It ain't popular to say that what some of these men were doing was not getting the job done. It makes the messenger look arrogant and the message look destructive. But this is where we are and we had may as well face up to it now. If we keep doing what we are doing we will keep getting the same results

I too have taken heat over exposing and questioning some methods used in my “old school” Church, but it’s a heat I will gladly endure. We must remember that looking back at the old ways does not mean we will always see what’s right.

If the issue here is about the theatrics empolyed by Billy Sunday in his presentaion of the WORD, I would think he is in good company: consider the OT prophets. Look at what the LORD asked Isaiah to do, as recorded in Isa. 20:1-4: "In the year that Tartan came unto Ashdod, (when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him,) and fought against Ashdod, and took it; At the same time spoke the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off, thy loins, and put off thy shoe from, thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt." There are other references one can refer to, but to me this is the most dramatic AND repulsive. However, according to the text the message got through (v. 5,6). If I had been there I am afraid I would have turned around and walked away, totally disgusted by the entire thing. Fotunately, I am now living in the 21st century....and can read about it from the beginning to the end.

ginnyrose

If the issue here is about the theatrics empolyed by Billy Sunday in his presentaion of the WORD, I would think he is in good company: consider the OT prophets.

One of the things we hear from time to time is that God uses these types of things to "draw a crowd." Generally I have heard the argument that Jesus gave out fish sandwiches to draw a crowd and so also Benny Hinn used to blow on people and wave his arm as a demonstration to draw a crowd. But I am not so sure we are talking about the same thing.

The prophets did radical things to gain the attention of the people while at the same time demonstrating the vulgarity of their sins. I think about the whole dung cakes thing. The people were sin sick- and that was one way to show them how sick their sin was to God. I think all of the illustrations had a message behind them or an intensity about them that was designed to pour light in upon their darkened conscience.

What I fear perhaps is that these methods somehow begin to take the place of the unction of God. It's like folk are looking for a gimmick or something in order to draw a crowd. It may have worked in the past- but that does not mean we clone it. We need to know what God is saying to our generation. He has a strategy for winning the lost in our times. Paul did not come in inticing words of wisdom, theatrics or any other thing. He came in demonstration of the power power of God. He walked in a way with God that when the Holy Ghost said 'do' he 'did' and peoples lives were changed. Demons came out and folk were delivered and healed. He did not control the power- He was yielded to the Holy Ghost that [i]has[/i] the power. So I think what we need to do is ask- how can we walk in the power of God as did the apostles? What are we missing? What has leavened our walk with God? Have our methods shut God down to a great degree? Not that he can't use us; he spoke through Baalam's Mule. It was not a prophet. He can of stones raise things up to praise him or be children of Abraham; that is not the point. What do we need to do to work the works of God? I think it takes a conscious dependence on God waiting on Him for our next instruction. If we go it alone- we may well be out there alone.

RW,

I would not disagree with you on the fact that modern day preachers tend to follow the methods of past giants of the faith, and compete with 'numbers saved', etc. I would not disagree with you either that many who went to hear Billy Sunday were not born again that shook his hand.

The point I was trying to make was that Billy preached the Word in truth, and this his did faithfully to millions.

I don't agree with copying methods over the unction of God either, but we cannot discredit the work of Billy Sunday by citing the faults surrounding the 'Sunday phenomena'. I don't get excited when I see numbers reported, but just like Spurgeon said, numbers cannot be ignored either. They must be taken for what they are.

There are many factors to weigh into the matter, for example in the early 1900's in America and England, from what I have heard, the Bible was considered the very Word of God by almost everyone you ran into. So when someone made a 'decision for Christ' in 1910, they typically knew the doctrines they were ascribing to. Whereas today, people makes 'decisions for Christ' and they really have no idea what they have decided for. I am not saying this as a blanket statement, but for the most part it is that way. Spiritism, evolution, new age philosophy, etc, etc, were viewed as anathema in Sunday's day, even by the average Joe, but today those who are included in those 'numbers saved' prescribe Jesus as their Savior, but follow the lifestyle of Zen; or claim they are saved, but do not believe in hell, and so forth.

I hope you understand where I am going, in that I don't disagree that all the numbers games of today are basically a joke, but at the same time recognizing the legitimacy of the work of Billy Sunday.

I also agree that we cannot idolize the giants of the faith of yesteryear, any more than we can't idolize the Apostle Paul, but stedfastly keep our eyes on the Author and Finisher of our faith. But I don't think it is fair to downplay the work of a man who has most assuredly impacted this country for God in a huge way. Think of all the lives alone that were spared because a man got saved on the sawdust trail and gave up his evenings at the local pub. If 10% of those who made decisions at Billy Sunday's meetings were genuinelly born again, and I think I am being extremely conservative here, we are talking roughly 100,000 people that were pulled out of the fire.

Like you, I agree we must weigh the evidence before we jump on the bandwagon, but in the end, we must give credit where credit is due. I hope we have found some common ground here, brother.

Like you, I agree we must weigh the evidence before we jump on the bandwagon, but in the end, we must give credit where credit is due. I hope we have found some common ground here, brother.

One of the high lights of my Christian life was when a brother who had bought a tiny little church took the pulpit out and down to the community center for a night of ministry. It was the first time I ministered "Just a Little Bit of Egypt" in a setting like that. The people near the old church still remember the time Billy Sunday came there in Iowa and ministered one night to see if there would be an interest. Later the tent was set up and he took things out doors. But the first night- Billy Sunday preached behind the pulpit we used. Now maybe I'm getting flaky. ;-) It was an honor to me and a blessing from God, I believe.

I don't blame Billy Sunday or Finney or Moody for what happened. It is our responsibility in each generation to make sure the Gospel is in tact. For some years it seemed that folk were just taking up whatever thing came along undiscerning. I would have loved to hear him preach. But what I am most focused on is how folk were starting to be 'processed' through and a Gospel of logical deductions drawn from proof texts has almost become the norm. This is more than a 'hard' preacher or a minister telling it like it is. This requires a sinner some time with God in the birthing process (if I can say that respectfully and without any weird connotations). We run the risk of botching the birth if there is not tremendous care in the birthing.

I never went to a hospital delivery room and saw women lined up in 10, 50, 100, or 1000 standing in the front of a single doctor giving instructions. There is an individualized attention shown to each one with tremendous care. So much is at stake in those minutes or hours. The hospital understands one thing- they will need more doctors and nurses and staff if they are to give attendance to more births. No mass deliveries. Why? Too much is at stake.

There used to be a time when we prayed for folks to come to salvation. We prayed until they received forgiveness of sins. We explained the Gospel and encouraged them to submit to God- if He was dealing with them about something. This was one- on one with folk. Not a repeat after me thing. We used to call it "praying through."

Today it seems we don't have time to [i]pray through[/i]. Were too busy. In my experience, we spend so much time in a church service talking about the hole in the donut that by the time service is over even the Saints are ready to freak out or leave. Every one is totally worn down and filled with anxiety. There are exceptions to this, of course. Don't want to paint with too broad of brush. But it begins with getting the service itself in order. It's sad that announcements can get as much time as the altar service. What are we here for man? I know someone has to have the insight to write a screwtape letter that lays all this out. The enemy has to be back of this. He has mastered wearing us down with nonsense till we can't even get the real job done. The whole service can resemble a stage production. One scene to the next scripted and everything. All the while- there are some births that need to take place. Not some agreeing with basic facts but a time of praying through and touching God. Not just a people moved- but utterly changed.

I agree. I wish there was not this attitude that the church staff should rush to get the people out 'on time'. For me the attitude should be more of a 'leave if you need to' but we are going to do business with God.

I finished a course of training with our church today, and really got to thinking how after the altar call that everyone pretty much vanishes. I am not saying that I don't sometimes do that, but I think there should be some care taken to have some people who are willing to stay and deal with people who come forward.

I would be willing to do this, and would consider it an honor. I ought to talk to my pastor about this.

Anyway, I agree with you here, it has become a schedule of how to get through all the main points and get people home, instead of an expectation that God would come into the service. I don't think God will come if someone is not waiting for Him to do so.

I don't think God will come if someone is not waiting for Him to do so.

Amen. There has to be a conscious readiness to do the Lord's will. Like a waiter stands ready to 'wait' on the dinner guests. Not just a time of dead silence; but a consciousness that we are waiting for direction from God to perform His next bidding. The problem is that folk are so programmed to have someone else hear from God for them that they don't even know when He is speaking to them to do something. I may get in trouble here, but we have to be sensitive to God through spending much time with Him in prayer and the word to know what He would or would not do. Or what He would or would not say. It may be as simple as going to a person and encouraging them or asking them how they are doing. It may be an encouragement or it may be a prayer. We just have to learn to 'wait' upon the Lord.