An illustration regarding Total Depravity

This week, I was speaking to a girl in my small-group about the issue of Total Depravity. We were trying to reconcile what the Bible said about Man's original design (e.g, Ps 139) vs the sinful nature.

I came up with the following analogy:

A major computer factory has designed a new model system. The hardware specifications are as follows:
2.5 Ghz Processor
256mb Ram
120Gb Hard Drive
2.0Mb/sec Wi-Fi receiver
10x DVD-Burner

So far, so good.

However, technicians discover that via the internet, the system received a virus attacking the Operating System, specifically targeting the drivers for the hardware. As a result, the computer now operates as follows:
90Mhz Processor
16Mb Ram
500mb Hard Drive
Dial-up speed wi-fi
4x CD-Rom

Obviously, the infected computers are not going to meet the requirements of their respective users and hence will not run the desired program applications.

Now, is it correct for me to describe the computers on the basis of the default hardware and what it can do as such? Yes, as it is a factual statement.

However, am I as just in rejecting the system on the grounds that when activated, it will no longer function in the way that it is supposed to, making it fully unusable? Of course.

intrcssr83~
I would only change it to say that the virus completely rendered the computer useless and "dead" to what it was meant for. Thus it does not need a technician to fix it, or a virus removal program, but a whole new computer, brand new and with the old "corrupted" things done away with. Even better, there would be a 24/7 omniscient "firewall" protecting and removing any further threats. :-P

Unfortunately, I have just opened a can of worms I am sure, so this may be the only post I put on this thread.

roaringlamb wrote:

Unfortunately, I have just opened a can of worms I am sure, so this may be the only post I put on this thread.

I don't think so, though, to be frank, relating grace to a firewall makes my head hurt. I'm just not computer ready all the time.

Blessings,

Forrest

Let me clarify: The illustration was intended to be in simple everday language a tangible explanation of a concept that a younger believer was having difficulty in comprehending; it was not to be an end to itself to build a whole paradigm around.

Intrcssr83, please review what you have up to what Fromke says..... and is it not a sword that needs to be put to the root of the tree?

Of course.

Any theological explanation of the gospel that tries to assert that man on his own has any form of merit and as such should be exhorted for such is not just unbiblical, but blasphemous in the sense that it carves an idol from the worst source possible: the self.

Sadly, so much of the world has become so entranced with humanism that it is slowly started to creep into the church to the extent that there seems to be very little difference between what you would otherwise find in a self-help section of a major bookstore.

And yet is this not one of the things that gives the cross it's offence? While the world tries to assert positivity, self-esteem, saavy lifestyles and any other form of man-centredness, God's word in essense stands by contrast by saying that apart from divine intervention, man is essentially a dead creature (Ephesians 2:1)

To say that we are under the undeserved favour of God and cannot be made right by our works is to at once suggest at full volume that your own natural skills, talents and abilities that you may have worked so hard to train and refine mean absolutely nothing when it comes to serving God as we simply cannot meet his standard by ourselves. Instead, through grace, he must always give a helping hand because left to our own without divine intervention, man is nothing more than a monster of iniquity enslaved to his own depravity, debauchery, deceitfulness and open hostility towards anything to do with the true and living God.

For God to be gracious, man must be fully dependant and totally ineffectual by himself. Everything that must be done for Him is by the dispensation of grace, no one can truly say with regards to ministry, worship, fellowship and devotion that "it was me who did it!" Sadly, the truth of the matter is that there are a lot of "Christians" out there who while they will say and exhort with knowledge and understanding that God's grace is sufficient, they are still burdened with the fruits of Works such as stress, exhaustion, burnout and performance anxiety. At the core of performance anxiety is the belief that one's own natural skills, talents and abilities are not going to get a person through what they have to hence they start to worry and push themselves even more.

Yet the truth is that the root cause of such thinking is really pride in the form of a desire for self-exaltation which is a complete insult to the grace that is freely available from God via Jesus Christ.

I don't see how what Intercessor has said is askew of the Gospel. Depravity is Biblical, and he has provided an illustration of it using computer hard drives.

I don't see the argument

Adam's transgression introduced a condition into himself he could not extricate himself from its penalty and was in need of something/someone outside himself to accomplish reconcilation.

For the next few verses it constantly refers to the impact of Adam's sin on others as well as on Adam.
“...For if through the offence of [u]one[/u] many be dead...” (Rom 5:15 KJVS)

“...for the judgment was by [u]one[/u] to condemnation...” (Rom 5:16 KJVS)

“...For if by [u]one[/u] man’s offence death reigned by one...” (Rom 5:17 KJVS)

“...So then as through [u]one[/u] trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation...” (Rom 5:18 ASV)

“...For as through the [u]one[/u] man’s disobedience the many were made sinners...” (Rom 5:19 ASV) Theologies which ignore these verses are bound to go astray.

God would not command us to do what we are notable to do.
[b]Act 3:19[/b] [color=990000]Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out[/color]

philologos wrote:

Adam's transgression introduced a condition into himself he could not extricate himself from its penalty and was in need of something/someone outside himself to accomplish reconcilation.

The scripture says that Adam's transgression introduced a condition, not only into himself, but into the world. (Rom 5:12)

Furthermore, it is irresonsible to quote 1/2 a verse.
[b]Rom 5:19[/b] [color=990000]For as through the one man's disobedience the many[/color][in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]were appointed sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many[/color][in like manner of obedience] [color=990000] shall be appointed righteous.[/color]

It needs to be seen this way, other wise it would be seen as:
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were appointed sinners without choice, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be appointed righteous without choice.

I agree.
furthermore, I don't like the theory of Total Depravity as you do.

God would not command us to do what we are notable to do.

Really what about the Ten Commandments? Is it not the condemnation of man that he cannot keep them? Yet God has said that the Law is just, and good, and spiritual.

You are correct to a point, in that God grants grace to perform what He demands, as in the gift of faith to believe the Gospel.

Ormly wrote:
Since man was entirely capable of living righteously before the cross, the bondage of corruption per Rom.8. 20,21 must have to do with his inability to extricate himself from the penalty of death. ..Which is what I have tried to get across elseware.

5The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5

46"If they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near, 47yet if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors, saying, 'We have sinned and have acted perversely and wickedly,' 48if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray to you toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city that you have chosen, and the house that I have built for your name, 49then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause 50and forgive your people who have sinned against you, and all their transgressions that they have committed against you, and grant them compassion in the sight of those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them 51(for they are your people, and your heritage, which you brought out of Egypt, from the midst of the iron furnace).
1 Kings 8:46-51

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 51:5

20Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.
Ecclesiastes 7:20

6We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isaiah 64:6

23Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard his spots?
Then also you can do good
who are accustomed to do evil.
Jeremiah 13:23

9The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Jeremiah 17:9

10as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known." 18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Romans 3:10-18

7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Romans 8:7-9

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Romans 7:18

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:1-3

8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

How can you say that man is "entirely capable of living righteously before the cross" when it seems evident that in light of scripture, this is not reflective of God own view of sinfulness? If man was able to live in such a way that he can be seen as righteous by his own merit, then why send Jesus to die in order that through him we may attain the righteousness to pass from death into life? :-?

It immediately suggests that the cross on it's own was completely unnecessary and pointless.

Faith is not a gift. All men have faith.

You and I have been through this before, you are mis-applying the verse from Romans
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, [b]according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.[/b]

Firstly notice who Paul is writing to- Christians, as he begins this chapter, "I beseech you therefore brethren..."

Secondly notice what he says about the faith they have- God has dealt it to them, thus implying they did not have it of themselves as you propose.

Lastly notice what is does not say- it does not say anything dealing with salvation, anything about the unsaved. Thus you are interpreting one passage, and misusing it to fit your own theology, and thus you have created a god of your own invention, but not the God of Scripture.