Utter dependence - the antidote to utter depravity!

For a long time I've seen original sin as "I did it my way". Instead of depending on the Lord to tell him what to do, Adam chose to go his own way. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to decide for himself what was right and wrong, instead of having the Lord instruct and empower them through the Tree of life.

Ever since then we have been in rebellion against authority of any kind. Have you seen a very young child deliberately and knowingly disobeying his parents? Sometimes even before they can walk.

When a little older than that, my mother said that one of my favourite expressions was "Jeanie do it!" I wasn't willing to accept any help from my parents if I imagined I could manage. I remember pushing my pushchair. It started to go into the wall and my mother put her hand on it to guide it. I was furious, and immediately gave it a violent shove that did send it into the wall. I then blamed my mother for interfering, convinced that it would have been OK if she'd just kept her hands off!!!

"Why should anyone - least of all God - tell mwe how to run my life? It's MY life, MY responsibility! How dare you tell me what to do!"

How often have we heard that said, in different forms? How often has that been in our hearts also? I speak of myself - even now - the desire to do my own thing is often only curbed by a fear of displeasing people, or a sense of duty.

As said in another thread, the power of my will frightens me - if I didn't know that the Power of the Cross was far far greater!

Lord, make me more dependent on YOU!

in Him

Jeannettte

LittleGift wrote:
For a long time I've seen original sin as "I did it my way". Instead of depending on the Lord to tell him what to do, Adam chose to go his own way. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to decide for himself what was right and wrong, instead of having the Lord instruct and empower them through the Tree of life.

Ever since then we have been in rebellion against authority of any kind. Have you seen a very young child deliberately and knowingly disobeying his parents? Sometimes even before they can walk.

When a little older than that, my mother said that one of my favourite expressions was "Jeanie do it!" I wasn't willing to accept any help from my parents if I imagined I could manage. I remember pushing my pushchair. It started to go into the wall and my mother put her hand on it to guide it. I was furious, and immediately gave it a violent shove that did send it into the wall. I then blamed my mother for interfering, convinced that it would have been OK if she'd just kept her hands off!!!

"Why should anyone - least of all God - tell mwe how to run my life? It's MY life, MY responsibility! How dare you tell me what to do!"

How often have we heard that said, in different forms? How often has that been in our hearts also? I speak of myself - even now - the desire to do my own thing is often only curbed by a fear of displeasing people, or a sense of duty.

As said in another thread, the power of my will frightens me - if I didn't know that the Power of the Cross was far far greater!

Lord, make me more dependent on YOU!

in Him

Jeannettte

But Adam did all that before he ate of the tree of knowledge. So how can you say eating of it "enabled" him in any way?

But Adam did all that before he ate of the tree of knowledge. So how can you say eating of it "enabled" him in any way?

Thanks Ormley for having such a different angle on things. Makes one think and seek the Lord, and perhaps get rid of some preconceived ideas :-)

Jeannette

LittleGift wrote:

But Adam did all that before he ate of the tree of knowledge. So how can you say eating of it "enabled" him in any way?

That's a thought! Probably because the act of rebellion [i]itself[/i], in eating the fruit, produced the result, knowing not only good and evil but that he'd done evil?

Thank you, Jeanette.

The thing that needs to be remembered in all this is that you and I are now what Adam was and are confronted with the same choices that confronted him and for the same reasons. Think about that heavy then ask what God was after in Adam and is He not after the same thing in us?

We can talk about that if you like. You will find it very exciting. Let me wet your whistle:

Romans 8:15-16 (KJV) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Also;
Galatians 4:5-7 (KJV)To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The above is what redemption is all about, it being only the doorway to it.

Ormly wrote:

LittleGift wrote:

But Adam did all that before he ate of the tree of knowledge. So how can you say eating of it "enabled" him in any way?

That's a thought! Probably because the act of rebellion [i]itself[/i], in eating the fruit, produced the result, knowing not only good and evil but that he'd done evil?

Thank you, Jeanette.

The thing that needs to be remembered in all this is that you and I are now what Adam was and are confronted with the same choices that confronted him and for the same reasons. Think about that heavy then ask what God was after in Adam and is He not after the same thing in us?

The difference between Adam and us is that Adam was created innocent, while we are born in the aftermath of the Fall, into a world of many imperfections and evil of all kinds.

I'm not sure if we are born with an inbuilt [i]possibility[/i] of rebelling against God, (as Adam must have been or he wouldn't have done it), or if we are born without a real choice any more, (Adam before he sinned did have a choice), with the seed of rebellion already in our hearts.

This question has already been discussed at length recently, and I didn't comment. However, thinking about it afresh I think that we do have a disadvantage over Adam - except for the grace of God.

It seems from scripture that Adam and Eve probably had no children until after the Fall. I believe that there is evidence of spiritual inheritance as well as physical; that is that sin of the fathers does affect the children spiritually. (For example, occult practices by a close relative can spiritually damage their children, nieces, nephews etc).

So I think it likely that we are all permanently affected in some way or another, by Adam's rebellion, without even having the choice to [i]not[/i] rebel. Like a child born with an inherited disease, or a drug addict like its mother. Not through its own choice but by the choice of its forebears. Except for the grace of God this is the lot of all of us.

Maybe the [i]first[/i] thing that the Holy Spirit does in our lives on the verge of being saved is to set us free to choose, as Adam was free to choose. As it says "I set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life" (Deut 19:13)
These are just a few thoughts at the moment, as I haven't considered this matter very much up until now.

Enouigh to be going on with maybe!

We can talk about that if you like. You will find it very exciting. Let me wet your whistle:

Romans 8:15-16 (KJV) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Also;
Galatians 4:5-7 (KJV)To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The above is what redemption is all about, it being only the doorway to it.

That was 40 yers ago today, and still "Abba, Father" is in my heart!

Anyone going to wish me Happy Birthday? :-D

In Him

Jeannette

He was after fellowship! He was after a part of His creation that would respond freely to His love, walk and talk with Him, share something of His glory that no other physical creature - made from mere dust - can.

He was after what Jesus became, a divine-human family with Christ, the Word become flesh, as the head of it. That plan has never been altered in anyway way except man, because of Adam's trangression, needed to be redeemed for it to continue and come to fruition.....That is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ..

....few there will be who enter.

UniqueWebRev wrote:
I rather think that God would have been perfectly happy if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of Life.

And then He could have told them how to procreate. Little else would be needed after that, and God would have His family.

Blessings,

Forrest

Not hardly since Adam was to be groomed for divinity and come to his own Mt Transfiguration experience; his own graduation day as Jesus did.

UniqueWebRev wrote:
I rather think that God would have been perfectly happy if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of Life.

And then He could have told them how to procreate. Little else would be needed after that, and God would have His family.

Blessings,

Forrest

Not quite sure what you mean by "And then He could have told them how to procreate"?

Maybe they already knew, but there wasn't yet a child conceived.

But all that is speculation, sadly, because they ate from the wrong tree.

Blessings

jeannette

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Why, Jeannette!

You got another year younger when we weren't looking?

Very sneaky of you.

Blow out one candle less, please. And eat my piece of cake for me.

Blessings,

Forrest

Ormly wrote:

He was after fellowship! He was after a part of His creation that would respond freely to His love, walk and talk with Him, share something of His glory that no other physical creature - made from mere dust - can.

He was after what Jesus became, a divine-human family with Christ, the Word become flesh, as the head of it. That plan has never been altered in anyway way except man, because of Adam's trangression, needed to be redeemed for it to continue and come to fruition.....That is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ..

....few there will be who enter.

But in Christ, as the hymn says:
[i][color=000099]"In Him the tribes of Adam boast
[b]More[/b] blessings than their father lost"[/color][/i]

Wow!!!

In Him

Jeannette

LittleGift wrote:

Ormly wrote:

He was after fellowship! He was after a part of His creation that would respond freely to His love, walk and talk with Him, share something of His glory that no other physical creature - made from mere dust - can.

He was after what Jesus became, a divine-human family with Christ, the Word become flesh, as the head of it. That plan has never been altered in anyway way except man, because of Adam's trangression, needed to be redeemed for it to continue and come to fruition.....That is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ..

....few there will be who enter.

Mmmmm Isn't that a sort of logical extension of what I said? A created being somehow brought into the fellowship of the Godhead itself...And then multiplied and ruling over all the rest of earthly creation...

But in Christ, as the hymn says:
[i][color=000099]"In Him the tribes of Adam boast
[b]More[/b] blessings than their father lost"[/color][/i]

Wow!!!

In Him

Jeannette

Yes it is, Jeanette, My point is that it is more than fellowship and more to being equal with God Himself, if such a notion has even entered our thinking, and what all we will be a part of in eternity in the univeral picture..
This puts the question out there as to the value of the notion that all one has to do is "accept Jesus into your heart and it is all yours". Sorry but my Bible say such a thing.
Now this can be followed with the next question having to do with redemption and "what next" after we are? How can that single message be a sustaining one for any who hear week it after week while struggling in an evil world?

Ormly wrote:

...My point is that it is more than fellowship and [b][i]more to being equal with God Himself[/i][/b], if such a notion has even entered our thinking, and what all we will be a part of in eternity in the univeral picture..

I have heard this teaching, that we can become one with the Godhead, and there is truth in it. The only thing is that it is perilously close to the first temptation, "You shall be as God..."

It is vital to discern between the two - especially in view of what some popular false teachers are saying; which is the temptation, not the Truth, of the matter.

The most subtle errors are the nearest to the Truth.

How would you go about distinguishing between them in practice?

This puts the question out there as to the value of the notion that all one has to do is "accept Jesus into your heart and it is all yours". Sorry but my Bible say such a thing.

The potential is there, "all things are yours...and you are Christs, and Christ is God's" (1Cor 3:21-23), but we have to grow into it.

Now this can be followed with the next question having to do with redemption and "what next" after we are? [i][b]How can that single message be a sustaining one for any who hear week it after week while struggling in an evil world?[/b][/i]

Not sure what you mean by asking this. Of course it can't! The practical answer to "what next?" is to simply get on with the business of living in Jesus. There is more to it than that of course, but this is where we all begin.

When a child is born it breathes, cries, moves, feeds and begins to grow. Not by conscious decision but by virtue of the life that is within it. It's when we get older that we begin to get complicated and lose something of that childlike trust and natural moving in Him.

It took me a very long time to eventually begin to learn that "becoming as a little child includes not worrying about how to "breathe and grow", but just [i]doing[/i] it!

Like this comic poem - (I can very much identify with the poor creature!)

[b][color=000099]A centipede was happy quite,
Until a frog in fun
Said, "Pray which leg comes after which?"
This raised her mind to such a pitch
She lay distracted in the ditch
Considering how to run![/color][/b]

In Him who is our Life, our righteousness, our all.

Jeannette

Hi Psalm 73,

Sorry, I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say!

You seem to be saying that we are all wrong, and that Spurgeon is wrong and some other people, but why you think that (if you do) I can't make out at all :-?

Maybe I'm just getting tired - it's nearly midnight here!

Thanks

Jeannette

Jeannette

LittleGift wrote:
Hi Psalm 73,

Sorry, I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say!

You seem to be saying that we are all wrong, and that Spurgeon is wrong and some other people, but why you think that (if you do) I can't make out at all :-?

Maybe I'm just getting tired - it's nearly midnight here!

Can you put what you mean in plain English please? Maybe in your own words? Bible quotes alone can be confusing unless you explain what point you are trying to illustrate by them.

Sorry to go on about it, but it would be good to know where you're coming from, and any truths the Lord has shown you.

Blessings

Jeannette

LittleGift wrote:

Ormly wrote:

...My point is that it is more than fellowship and [b][i]more to being equal with God Himself[/i][/b], if such a notion has even entered our thinking, and what all we will be a part of in eternity in the univeral picture..

I have heard this teaching, that we can become one with the Godhead, and there is truth in it. The only thing is that it is perilously close to the first temptation, "You shall be as God..."

It is vital to discern between the two - especially in view of what some popular false teachers are saying; which is the temptation, not the Truth, of the matter.

Indeed, I have also. The rest of "their story" has much to do with my accepting what they preach. Buyer beware.

The most subtle errors are the nearest to the Truth.

How would you go about distinguishing between them in practice?

I wrote this to myself awhile back:

01-2006 The Lord Jesus Christ is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. We were in Him at the first, from the foundation of the worlds, and will be in Him at the last. Between the first and the last we are in this world to become [a son]. The first and the last, the responsibility is His.. The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh. Without a vision of the last, we will not become that which is purposed in us by our Father. The vision of the last is imparted in us from the first. A revelation of the first, the Christ of Glory, will bring the vision of the last that will sustain "the in-between"... in which we presently function.

[08-16-06]The revelation of the Promise OF the faith OF Christ is that part of the vision that will sustain us to becoming the “full ear of grain”….Union with the Father in our flesh. [Gal.2.20 KJV only]

[O8-30-06] ** “God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now” ....... that I become that “a ear of grain”.

** Oswald Chambers

This puts the question out there as to the value of the notion that all one has to do is "accept Jesus into your heart and it is all yours". Sorry but my Bible say such a thing.

The potential is there, "all things are yours...and you are Christs, and Christ is God's" (1Cor 3:21-23), but we have to grow into it.

I would question if anything is achieved by such an "acceptance" but rather a revelation of Christ that brings on the needed contriteness of heart that God will not despise; a heart that would respond to the "Come unto Me", from the Lord.

Now this can be followed with the next question having to do with redemption and "what next" after we are? [i][b]How can that single message be a sustaining one for any who hear week it after week while struggling in an evil world?[/b][/i]

Not sure what you mean by asking this. Of course it can't!

But that is exactly what I mean and yet that is the most preached every Sunday to the same people. Have you ever listened to Dr. Charles Stanley? Great example of this.

The practical answer to "what next?" is to simply get on with the business of living in Jesus. There is more to it than that of course, but this is where we all begin.

From Chambers:

July 28th

After obedience—what?

And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side. . . . Mark 6:45-52.
We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God’s purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end.
What is my dream of God’s purpose? His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.
God’s training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.
God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present; but if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. July 28

When a child is born it breathes, cries, moves, feeds and begins to grow. Not by conscious decision but by virtue of the life that is within it. It's when we get older that we begin to get complicated and lose something of that childlike trust and natural moving in Him.

It took me a very long time to eventually begin to learn that "becoming as a little child includes not worrying about how to "breathe and grow", but just [i]doing[/i] it!

Ah, but there is a character to be learned; to be instilled in the child that is to become a son unto the Father who has begotten us through Christ Jesus. It is the saddest of days when the Church lost its way in the understanding of this, the result of which has left us with so many unnecessary arguments and bastard sons..

Ormly wrote:

[Jeannette]The practical answer to "what next?" is to simply get on with the business of living in Jesus. There is more to it than that of course, but this is where we all begin.

[Ormley] From Chambers:

July 28th

After obedience—what?

And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side. . . . Mark 6:45-52.
We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God’s purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end.
What is my dream of God’s purpose? [b]His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now.[/b] If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; [b]His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.[/b]
God’s training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.
God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present; but if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. July 28

[Jeannette]: When a child is born it breathes, cries, moves, feeds and begins to grow. Not by conscious decision but by virtue of the life that is within it. It's when we get older that we begin to get complicated and lose something of that childlike trust and natural moving in Him.

It took me a very long time to eventually begin to learn that "becoming as a little child includes not worrying about how to "breathe and grow", but just doing it!

Ah, but there is a character to be learned; to be instilled in the child that is to become a son unto the Father who has begotten us through Christ Jesus. It is the saddest of days when the Church lost its way in the understanding of this, the result of which has left us with so many unnecessary arguments and bastard sons..

What I think are the best bits of the Oswald Chambers quote (above) are underlined!

Your comment about growing into "sonship" takes more thought...

I think the "growing up" is paradoxical, "a little child shall lead them"; "the last shall be first and the first last". That's how its been with me anyway. I had to [i]learn[/i] to become as a little child in the way Jesus meant. When I began to learn it, (still at kindergarten stage now, after 40 years!!) THAT was the beginning of growing up. Dependence is the start of maturity, not its end. [i][b]Maturity in Christ is the place of the greatest, most childlike dependence on the Father[/b][/i]. The world has it the other way around, and the world is wrong!

Remember when Nicodemus came to Jesus... This theologian, a Bible teacher, a leader and elder, couldn't understand the simplest things of the Kingdom of God, that he should have understood from his own knowledge of the Scriptures.

Why couldn't he understand? Because he was too complicated, too grown up, too intellectual.

A friend who wrote things very much in the Spirit, used to send copies of the Bible Studies she did. One day I read it, and said aloud, "It's so SIMPLE! ...And I don't understand a word of it!!!" It was something that was written, and could only be received, in the Holy Spirit. It was too simple, too [i]childlike[/i], for anyone not in the Spirit.

This is Christian maturity. This is where we begin to grow up!

Do you know, I'm not sure if we agree or not on this. The last post did get a bit complicated to remember who was saying what when! :-?

In Him

Jeannette