How to tell who is a witch?

I don't know if I agree on David Prince's sermon on witchcraft. He said that any woman who did not submit to her husband was to be considered evil and a witch. Now, my father is mildly retarded. He has a 90% blockage in his brain that caused several ministrokes and one major stroke. He would be lost without my mother there to make all the decisions. What do you think of her? Would she be considered a witch?

Ridiculous, immature-- laughable at best-- this statement from this minister.

It would be like calling a non-submitting wife an adulterer, or thief.

Please. Seriously. I know what he was possibly, though not solely, trying to get at-- "all sin is the same in God's eyes!" but this in effect is not that. This guy seems to have been reading too much into the Puritans (who were infamous for their paranoia of witches and would actually consider you a witch-- if i recally correct-- if if you had had an affair or stole or whatever, i.e., that you were basically de facto possessed in one way or another.)

Sad, that this is being preached. Hope people are more discerning than this and able to see through it for what it is: weightless.

Would need to listen to full context of the sermon of course for a full analysis but what you said seems enough.

To your latter statements: No, she would not, although your statements are somewhat confusing-- you say your father is somewhat... paralyzed psychologically yet you say "would his wife be considered a witch"-- when in context wouldn't you be referring to your father? You didn't say she was "unsubmissive"-- but I'm sure your father may be due to his illness. Of course though they are not witches, evil, or whatever. Illness is not a stamp of evil.

Jordan

Would need to listen to full context of the sermon of course for a full analysis [b]but what you said seems enough.[/b]

I doubt it. Derek Prince was a diligent teacher of God's word, even if some may disagree with his conclusions and viewpoints on some subjects. His teachings are very well thought out and very compact. You need to listen to them various times through to catch everything he is actually saying.

I haven't listened to this paticular teaching recently, but from what I remember from his tapes, Derek Prince defines witchcraft as any attempt of a human spirit to control another. That can be a manipulative pastor, husband, wife, etc. In this context his statement makes sense.

PassingThru

Would need to listen to full context of the sermon of course

Which would be prefrerable than to make poor comments before doing so.

Ridiculous, immature-- laughable at best-- this statement from this minister.

It would be like calling a non-submitting wife an adulterer, or thief.

I don't know anything about this guy and I'm not necessarily promoting what he said, but I would think this is the verse he had in mind.

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.

I agree with him, if that is what Derek prince says. Any women Who is rebelling agaist her husband is a witch (rebellious).

The example you use with your dad and mom doesn't show any rebellion. Your saying your mom is helping your dad because his stroke. How is that being rebellious?

This is interesting. This happend before I read in the bible that rebellion is witchcraft.

A while back when my husband and I had a little spif and I would not submit on his decision, thinking my way was best. That night I went to bed and had a dream and saw a witch right across from me. She was toying with something in her hand like she was performing a spell. I woke up and did not understand what that means until later on I read in the bible about rebellion is witchcraft. Then I understood that I allowed myself to be influence by the spirit of rebellion because I did not submit to my husband. OUCH! Though at first I did not see myself that way because I thought my way was right, it doesn't matter. This is how the Lord saw me! And the bible said it so I'm in the wrong and the bible is right!

We must becareful in being lead by feelings and not the word.

God bless, Lisa

I myself had to submit to my husband just this morning...He thinks I talk to much about God and he thinks I listen to too much christian music...We had a huge fight about the Lord and how I will not give up my God for him or even place God second in my life...instead I bought a cd player and now I can listen to my music anytime and all the time if I want...it is not rebellion it is not moving God aside it is respecting my husbands wishes...He does not have to hear about The Lord in any way for it is his choice...therefore I submitted to him but without giving up God period.
My husband told me how worthless he feels with me placing God first in my life and much more...now I have to re-arrange everything where my God and my husband are seperated in my life...
But where God always comes first.

Now as for your mother...no she is not a witch...your father cannot make decisions fully on his own therefore out of love your mother has taken on the responsibility of both roles...this must be hard for her...but it does not make her a witch it shows how much she loves her husband and her family.

Krispy, I would encourage you to be with the Lord first before posting on this forum. You have PRIDE in your heart and a self righteos attitude. Lets do more practicing of the word rather than teaching. There are many teachers already who think they are teachers, but have no clue of KNOWING HIM.

There are many teachers who can expound on the word, but the word is not at all rooted in them. Do you know you can expound on the word and still be a slumbering christian? There are many teachers who uses human authority to share the word because they have no spiritual authority.

rebellion is comparable to witchraft so it is the same as witchcraft. why do we fight over words, straining out knats? Because many are prideful and have to be right about everything. Just plain knit pickers. Lets just really get right into the heart of the matter.

May I enter this discussion for a moment.

Krispy, you were extremely truthful and extremely blunt (frank and straightforward and showing little delicacy or consideration).

(I say this as your brother who is guilty of this far too often)

I believe this is what myfirstlove was reacting to.

myfirstlove, you were also very blunt in your response. Now, since I am not without sin I will not cast a single stone at either one of you.

myfirstlove and Krispy, you are both right that rebellion is as bad in God's eyes as witchcraft, however, Krispy has a good point when he says that rebellion is not witchcraft.

God Bless you both and I hope we can steer this conversation in the right spirit of love.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

This is interesting. This happend before I read in the bible that rebellion is witchcraft.

First off... the Bible does [b]not[/b] say that rebellion [b]is[/b] witchcraft. It says it is [b]as[/b] witchcraft.

[b]1 Samuel 15:23[/b] [i]For rebellion is [b]as[/b] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is [b]as[/b] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.[/i]

I dont hear Christians calling stubborn people "idol worshippers"... so why would we call a rebel a witch? Yet, I hear preachers all the time telling people who they perceive as being rebellious that they are practicing a form of witchcraft.

This is not what this verse is saying at all.

It saying that in God's eyes, a rebellious heart is as ugly and sinful as witchcraft is. And a stubborn heart is as ugly and sinful as idol worshipping.

It's just amazing to me how people who supposedly can read simple English can take this verse and completely misunderstand it. I'm not referring to Derrik Prince because I havent heard for myself what he said. I am referring to some of the responses on this thread.

A rebellious person is not a witch. God is saying to Saul thru the prophet "Since you're so rebellious and stubborn... you might as well go all the way and be a witch or an idol worshipper because you're just as damned as they are."

C'mon folks... let's [b]read[/b] our Bibles more. A little more Bible reading and lot less dependence on people telling us what the Bible says will go a long ways to helping each of us understand scripture better.

As for the comments about Prince... if you havent actually heard the sermon, dont throw stones... and I'm not a big Derrik Prince fan.

Krispy

I agree with Krispy.

Krispy, I still encourage you to go and seek God.

Your heart is not right.

A lot of people can expound on the word and sound so intellectly right, but if only they KNOW God and see sin as he sees it and not as they see it.

Being blunt and honest does not mean you are spiritually forth right. There is a difference. Blunt is cockiness.

There are too many teachers on this forum. The sheep does not need more teachers, but more preachers who know their God. There is a big difference. So many who think they know doctrine and who may know a lot of doctrine, but do not know God and you can tell by their teachings that they do not know God. Just like you can listen to someone preach and can tell if they KNOW God. if they have walked in what they have taught and preached.

teachers won't be helping the sheep if all they know is doctrine.

I just thank God that He showed me how my sin looked like. How my rebellion to my husband was like witchcraft to Him.

I just wish there were more men who can show the sheep how wicked sin is. We got many who can share the greek meaning, but not many who can open people's eyes and help them see their wicked state, there need to repent right now before its too late. Instead, many men are just leading sheep into more debate or more doctrine and never getting deep down and exposing the motives behind the questions and helping them see their rebellion, there filthy heart!

We surely don't need more teachers. we got a lot here. We need Prophets!

I've just listened to a short portion of Derek Prince's teaching on witchcraft, although I'm not sure it's the same recording.

He is not equating rebellion with witchcraft, but rather inappropriate control/dominion over another person.

In my own words, here are some of the points he raised in the portion where he refers to cases of pentecostal/charismatic women who he classes as "witches" :-

* They are normally well intentioned.
* They seek to dominate the pastor/church/prayer group.
* They dominate their husbands. He is not the head of the family.
* Their children grow up rebellious as a [b]fruit[/b].

I think it would be appropriate for the verbatim quote (with surrounding context) that started this thread to be posted if it can be found.

PassingThru

If I might add something here...

Derek Prince defines witchcraft as any attempt of a human spirit to control another. That can be a manipulative pastor, husband, wife, etc.

It is one of my great wishes that people would halt on re-defining words with clear-cut meanings. The word Derek seems to be missing is "manipulator". He serves to confuse and mislead his congregation in stating this as he does. Some of those weaker-minded women with soft consciences will leave church believing they must not be true believers because they have at some time had conflicts with their husbands and are so "witches".

To the best of my understanding rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft in two ways:

1.)Practiced to its extent, rebellion is equally repugnant in the sight of God as witchcraft.

2.)Both witchcraft and rebellion have a common tie. Each are attempts to take control and power out of its natural place for ones own gain.

But, so long as we speak English, rebellion and witchcraft are [i]distinct words[/i]. If they weren't, our language would have discarded one of them by now.

I imagine Derek was trying to emphasize the evil nature of rebellion but it seems he did it clumsily.

But, of course, I am myself tended towards poor communication.

I happen to respect Derek Prince very much.

In his sermon, "Expelling Demons" he mentioned his regrets about men of God teaching people about demons (with good intentions) with knowledge and knowledge alone. In other words they taught on a topic they had no experience with. Which can lead people astray.

Before we begin refuting or supporting Prince's statement, I think it may be extremely beneficial to know what scripture he teaches this off of (knowledge) and what EXPERIENCE he is teaching from.

He may know a little more than just us "readers" of the Word...

DO
I Pet 4:2

It should be noted that in 1 Sam 15:23 where Samuel says "rebellion is as witchcraft" that the prophet is using a literary device known as a simile. To go back to 7th grade English class, a simile is a form of speech/writing where a person compares two distinct things using "like" or "as."

Thus, Samuel does not call rebellion witchcraft per say, but he does liken the two as belonging to the same family. So, with this in mind, to label somebody who is rebelling (and I don't mean simply disagreeing) a witch, such as an out-of-control, unsubmissive wife, is a very strong, but appropriate description.

myfirstLove wrote:
We surely don't need more teachers. we got a lot here. We need Prophets!

While your filling out the menu for our needs here could you also stick on the menu a tossed Grace salad with some good old forgiveness dressing? :-P