What is a lie?

A while back I was wondering about 'lies'.
We all know we should not lie or bend the truth if we want to follow the Lord.

In John 8:44 it is even stated that the devil is the father of all lies. So we should not want to walk in lies. Now I was wondering about the following:

How about if someone was accused for something and you step in and take the blame, telling that you did it? In short; can you lie to save someones neck or life? Or can one not lie at all?
I'll add in another example, borrowed from the 'how strong is your faith' topic.
In 2 kings 6:19 It seems that Elisha says something which is not true, was he telling a lie for Gods glory?

Thanks for reading!

A lie for God's glory?

Don't know if we should put it that way, but it looks like it. Or does it?

The Syrians wanted to go to Dothan, vs 13, but after being blinded, which only God could have done in answer to Elisha's prayer, he led them to Samaria, to where, apparently, the king of Israel was, vs 21.

There are instances of lies and deception in the Bible that we do question, but seem to be not wrong in God's eyes.

For instance, Rahab hiding the spies and saying they had left the city, Josh 2.

The old prophet that lied to the man of God, and yet after he lied, he prophesied of the man's death which came to pass, 1 Kings 13.

Jehu acted deceptively in calling together the worshippers of Baal in order to destroy them, 2 Kings 10.

I doubt we will ever understand the way in which God deals with us, even when it seems to go against what He commands.

Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has become His counsellor?

Others will contribute to the discussion and maybe we will get somewhere.

That's all I have for now.

God bless.

I don't think lying to cover up your sin is acceptable.
People in denial might use the excuse that it is for God's glory to cover up sin. In fact , you are lying even more.

Quick thought ...

Withholding the truth need not be understood as a lie.

Mar 11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 11:30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
Mar 11:31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
Mar 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
Mar 11:33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Withholding information is not the same as lying.
God ask us to watch our tongue, not ask us to lie.

Lying is a sin, it is within the 10 commendments, are we here trying to comprimise a sin?

suddenly wrote:
Withholding information is not the same as lying.
God ask us to watch our tongue, not ask us to lie.

Lying is a sin, it is within the 10 commendments, are we here trying to comprimise a sin?

I find it interesting that in the KJV, he Ninth Commandment is worded "Thou shall not bear [b]false witness[/b]". Kind of creates an illusion to perjury. My understanding of what "false witness" might be, is any communication that fails to accurately portray the facts. Omission could do this as well, if not better that commission.

How does that apply to hiding Jews from Nazis, etc? I'm glad that I am not required to have to apply an answer to that, in my present situation. I do know that withholding information, without hiding the fact, has a price tag attached to it the fear finds hard to tolerate. The ultimate question is, who are we protecting by our deception? If self, then it is definitely sin. However, if another, is it done in the spirit of benevolence, or will we be indirectly gaining from it?

I strongly believe that everything comes back to motivation (which we need to be honest to ourselves about). However, as always, we must remember that "mercy triumphs over judgement". Don't forget that Jesus cited an illustration to the Pharisees, that involved David lying when he said "Go and learn what this means, 'I will have mercy, not sacrifice'."

There is never a need to lower the standard, only to raise the Cross.

crsschk wrote:
Quick thought ...

Withholding the truth need not be understood as a lie.

Mar 11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 11:30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
Mar 11:31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
Mar 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
Mar 11:33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

...an example of withholding the truth, without hiding it. In other words, the hearer knows that they don't have all the facts. This is honest. However, to withhold the fact that your withholding (anyone else's head spinning :-P) is deceptive, because it creates a different impression to what the truth is. Acting on the former, one is always mindful of the fact that there is something that is unknown. Acting on the latter, assumptions can be wrongly made that all is know, when it isn't.

Again I say, "Thou shall not bear false witness".

The most troubling passage on lying in the Bible to me is this one :-

[color=000099]
2Ch 18:19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spoke saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
2Ch 18:20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. [b]And the LORD said[/b], Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: [b]go out, and do even so.[/b]
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, [b]the LORD hath put a lying spirit[/b] in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
[/color]

The passage doesn't say God lied, but obviously he used a spirit that did to achieve his purpose. Even the vilest creatures will bring glory to God in the end.

Jesus never used a lie, although He did resort to cryptic answers which were obviously going to be misinterpreted by his hearers. (Tear this temple down...)

Perhaps the accounts of lying men of God simply show their human weakness. It doesn't say God endorsed it, even if he didn't rebuke it then and there.

PassingThru

I find it interesting that in the KJV, he Ninth Commandment is worded "Thou shall not bear false witness". Kind of creates an illusion to perjury. My understanding of what "false witness" might be, is any communication that fails to accurately portray the facts.

I was just about to write this very thing when I saw you had already done so.

Something I would like to point out is that bearing false witness has two implications. 1) If we have witnessed something and say something different than what we have witnessed. 2) If we have not witnessed something at all, and yet give a witness as though we have seen it.

In regards to the law, there is something that we must remember that applies to all laws. This is central to Christianity. Aaron touched on this by saying that it depends on our motivation.

The law was given to humanity, not to control us, but to help us. The law was given to show us our sin. If we were perfect, we would have obeyed the law naturally. As such, the law would have been pointless. If everyone obeyed the law precisely, then we would not have to write down and command it. However, the Lord did write it and command it because He knew we would break it.

This becomes apparent in the example of the Sabbath. When accused of breaking the Sabbath, Jesus said in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

Humanity was created for God. From the beginning, we were created to worship God and love God. This means that the law was not given to control us because we were supposed to be controlled by the Spirit.

When it comes to the law, in order to obey it, humanity must first interpret it. Obviously, when God gave the law, He had a certain purpose or meaning behind it. The purpose of the Sabbath was to provide a day of rest where we could delight in the Lord. However, this good purpose of God could be used for evil. The Pharisees took the law to be black and white. The Law says do not work on the Sabbath, and so, under no conditions is a person to work on the Sabbath. Such an interpretation disregards God's original intention.

This is where the law fails humanity. The law cannot change the sinful nature in us. Yes, the law said do not work on the Sabbath. But this was for God's good purpose. However, because man is sinful and evil, we took this good purpose and twisted it for our own sinful nature. As such, the Pharisees used it to accuse Jesus of sin. They used the law, which was good, and twisted it for their own evil purposes.

As human beings, we lack the ability to fully interpret the law, especially when we are far from God. To interpret the law correctly, we must discern what the Lord intended.

When Jesus Christ died on the cross, however, He resolved this issue. We no longer need to interpret the law with our mind. Our goal is not to obey the law. Our goal is to be controlled by the Holy Spirit.

This is significant and important. We are controlled by the Holy Spirit, and not by our own mental understanding of what is right or wrong.

When we are controlled by the Spirit ( in other words, ruled by God), then we fulfill the law naturally without having to think about it. Our only thought is about God. We delight in God and seek His will. We continually surrender to Jesus so that He may control us by the Holy Spirit.

When you ask, "What is a lie?"....I must be inclined to ask this question: Why do you ask?

We could debate for years what is lie. What did God mean when He commanded us not to bear false witness? What was God's purpose for saying this? What was His intention and will?

Some people might say, "God said don't lie, and that means don't lie ever!" However, anyone who says such a thing is not obeying God, they are obeying their own interpretation of the law. They are creating a black and white rule that is above or greater than God. Only God can say, "This is what a lie is. This is what I meant by that commandment."

If you are trying to create a black and white statement statement to apply to all situations, then you are endanger of entering into sin. You are worshiping something other than God. Our primary goal should be to follow Jesus by complete surrender or submission to His authority as established by the Holy Spirit within us. We should not seek to obey by our own understanding of the law.

You do not need to interpret the law or mentally know what a lie is any longer if you are in Christ. If you wish to please God, then all you need to do is be controlled by the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit controls you, then you have pleased God. However, if you try to please God with your own mental understanding of the law, then you will sin. You have placed your own wisdom above God.

Proverbs 3:5(NAS)
Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

In Christ,
Blake

That is a very different situation if you lied to protect the righteous.

But if you are covering up a youth pastor who has a double life. You all love his day life as a sweet loving pastor, and the other side of his life is a serial sexual predator.
Then he get caught with one of his victim, and he lied that is the only one time he did it, and he blamed the last victim for what he did without facing her deep long standing problem. And he lied that he will never do it again.

He lied all the way trying to get everyone off his back, and now he is planning another victim.

If you keep covering him up, because you love one side of him. Without thinking about all the past victims and future victims. You will have blood on your hands.

You are also deceived by him.

That's so interesting, I was just wondering about this. I had been reading the story of Bruther Yun and came to a part where he was captured by the PSB and feigned madness and was soon released. He said he felt the Lord telling him to do so and remembered how King David had done the same in the Bible.

George Platt,

I dont think you are no David, he did not lie, and he truely repent, and he did not lie to blame to undermine his mistakes.He took full responsiblity of what he did.

You are actually like Saul, he blamed others for his fault, in the end he will fall on his sword and kill himself.

Interesting posts.
Another verse that showed some insight to good balance in truth is 1 Sam 16. The Lord sends Samuel to Jesse's to annoint David and Sam is afraid Saul will be mad. So in 2 & 3 God says "But Samel said "How can I go? When Saul hears of it, he will kill me." And the Lord said, "Take a heifer with you , and say "I have come to sacrifice to the Lord."
And you shall invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; and you shall anoint for Me the one whom I designate to you."

Of course we all have to judge our motives at all times; but I learned that we do not owe all truth to all people. God arranged circumstances so that Samuel had a public purpose he could share and felt no need for him to share private info with the King.

On the WWII thing ... that is a hard one; perhaps it is which sin is worse. Helping the enemy kill innocent people or lying to protect them. I have no doubt that God would lead us in that moment of our need.

Passing Thru - Good verse. It affects me the same as it does you. I meditate on that verse a lot :)