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Theology

God: Linear or "Eternal Now"??

sermonindex May 6, 2007


[b]A Theological Treatise on the Natural
Linear Attribute of God[/b]

or

[b]Two Fundamental Reasons for Rejecting the
Platonic/Stoic/Manichaeism/Augustinian
"Eternal Now" view of God[/b]

[i]By Jesse Morrell[/i]


[b]The "Eternal Now" View Explained From Original Sources:[/b]

Heathen Philosopher Plato taught that God experiences no "before" and no "after" but experiences all of time in a single, changeless, eternal moment.

Eastern Cultist Philosopher Enneads of Plotinus :

"We know Eternity as a Life changelessly motionless ... not this now and now that other, but always all; not existing now in one mode and now in another, but a consummation without part or interval. All its content is in immediate concentration as at one point; nothing in it ever knows development; all remains identical within itself, knowing nothing of change... What future, in fact could bring to that Being anything which it does not now possess ... as it can never come to be anything at present outside it, so necessarily it cannot include any past; ... futurity, similarly is banned; nothing could be yet to come to it. ... one which never turns to any kind outside itself that has never received any accession that is now receiving none and never will receive any .... " (Third Ennead VII,4-5, p.120-121)

Augustine in "The City Of God" -

"... It is not as if the knowledge of God were of various kinds, knowing in different ways things which as yet are not, things which are and things which have been. For not in our fashion does He look forward to what is future, nor what is present, nor back upon what is past; but in a manner quite different and far and profoundly remote from our way of thinking. For He does not pass from this to that by transition of thought, but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness; so that of those things which emerge in time, the future indeed are not yet, and the present are now and the past no longer are; but all of these are by Him comprehended in his stable and eternal Presence. ... nor does His present knowledge differ from that which it ever was or shall be, for those variations of time, past, present ad future through they alter our knowledge, do not affect His... Neither is there any growth from thought to thought in the conceptions of Him in whose spiritual vision all things which He knows are at once embraced." (City of God XI Ch. 21 p.333)

Augustine in his "Confessions" -

"...in the Eternal nothing passeth, but the whole is present; whereas no time is all at once present: and that all time past, is driven on by time to come, and all to come followeth upon the past; and all past and to come, is created, and flows out of that which is ever present... see how eternity [is] ever still-standing, neither past nor to come." (Confessions Book XI p.262)

Augustine in a sermon -

"Eternity is stability, but in time variety; in Eternity all things stand still, in time one thing comes, another succeeds." (Nicen and Post-Nicean Fathers, Volume 6, Sermon LXVII, p.)

In other words, "eternity" according to this philosophical view is not time "forever and ever" but eternity is rather the absence of time, a stagnant stand-still without any succession, duration, chronology, or sequence; from which God looks upon and dwells in all of time - past, present, and future simultaneously. God is not "everlasting" in the sense of never ceasing duration, but God is at a "ever stand-still" in the sense of absent of the succession of duration, dwelling in the past, present, and future all at once.


[b]1. "Eternal Now” Renders Creation Impossible[/b]

The creation of something presupposes that it was not in existence before hand. You cannot create that which already exists; you can only create out of nothing that which was nothing, therefore the creation of something presupposes the non-existence of something. For God to have created duration, sequence, chronology, or succession, which is to say if God created time, you must presupposes that time did not exist. But such a creation, going from non-existence to existence, is itself duration, sequence, chronology, and succession. Without the existence of succession, it is impossible to create succession when succession did not exist. For such a creation requires succession.

God could not speak the sequence of, “let there be time“ before the existence of time in any sort of chronological or linear fashion, and then create time when it did not exist, because such would require time, sequence, and chronology to pre-exist. A pre-requisite to the activity of creating is unavoidably time, which is also called duration, sequence, chronology, and succession.

The omnipotent creating power of God would be rendered useless and unusable in a “stand-still” realm. If it is a “stand still”, passive realm, you cannot have active creating motion. Unless time already existed before creation, God could create nothing at all. The creation of all things, even that of the creation of time, would require succession in order for a thing to go from non-existence to existence. Without time being a natural and eternal attribute to God‘s existence (time caused by necessity of His eternal self-consciousness), God could be the Creator of nothing, for creation of a non-existing thing to an existing thing requires the sequence of time, the succession of events, the chronology of creation. Such a time requirement would be upon the creation of time itself. The creation of anything requires the existence of time or else “nothing” cannot go from non-existence to existence in order to be “something”. Going from a non-existence to existence is a chronological sequence. You cannot chronologically create chronology without the existence of chronology. The creation of time is a natural impossibility given the nature of creating. If time did not exist, time could never be created. Creating time is a self-contradiction, a natural impossibility, a logical absurdity.

Time is the necessary framework in which all successive action, all creation, can take place. Sequence is an unmovable condition for the creation of anything, including the hypothetical creation of time. The creation of a thing requires a preceding state and a proceeding state; the preceding state of non-existence succeeding to the state of existence and the state of existence preceding the state of non-existence. In the creation of anything there must be an antecedent and a consequent. Precedings, proceedings, antecedents and consequents all requires duration and sequence as a necessary condition. Therefore duration, sequence, chronology, succession, or "time" cannot be created. It is a natural impossibility.

The truth of Genesis 1:1 is the ultimate presuppositional starting point of all systematic Christian thought, being universally presupposed by the intuitive reason of all intelligent agents. But "Eternal Now" is fundamentally destructive to all Christian thought, rendering Genesis 1:1 completely and utterly impossible, though Genesis 1:1 is an uncompromising fundamental truth to all Christianity explicitly taught in scripture and automatically assumed by the universal consciousness of all intelligent agents. "Eternal Now" inevitably violates both the explicit teachings of scripture and the intuitions of the reason.


[b]2. "Eternal Now" Renders All Things Eternal[/b]

If God's eternal being means that He lives in the past, present, and future simultaneously, and there has never been any change or sequence in which the presence of God has been subjected, then the past, present, and future must be as eternal as God is. The past, present, and future, with all that it contains, could not be any younger then God and God cannot be any older then it. They all must be co-eternal if the “Eternal Now” doctrine is true.

The past, present, and future must have always existed, (along with all those beings which dwell in the past, present, and future) if God has always been there, if God has never experienced sequence or change to His presence. God can only eternally dwell in an eternal dwelling place. If God never started to dwell in the past, present, and future, and never ceases to live in the past, present, and future (for such starting and endings are sequence and change), then the past, present, and future has always, still does, and will always exist given this position.

For God to create the Heavens and the Earth, implies that God‘s being was not there to dwell in the uncreated. If uncreated, then naturally God could not dwell there, and if He once did not, but now does dwell there, what is this but sequence or change to the presence of God? Therefore, if God‘s Being experiences no sequence or duration, but is at an “Eternal Now” or at an “eternal stand still”, if God‘s presence dwells in the past, present, and future eternally, then the past, present, and future must be as eternal as God is. Therefore there was never a time in God‘s reality in which the past, present, and future did not exist and were created. For by necessity, they must have existed eternally in order for God to eternally dwell there. For God to have eternally dwelt in the past, present, and future, the past, present, and future must be eternal as well. And therefore the past, present, and future was never created in the reality of God given this position.

Simply, if God’s presence is not subjected to change, and God’s presence has dwelt in all of time, then God must have eternally dwelt there, and therefore all of time must be eternal for God to have dwelt in all of it eternally, or else God’s presence has been subjected to change and duration. If God’s presence never goes through change of sequence, if His natural attributes experience no succession or duration, then where God’s presence has dwelt He must have eternally dwelt, or else His presence has been subjected to change, sequence, succession, and duration.

God cannot be the Creator if He does not live in time, if His being has no natural attribute of succession or duration. God could not create anything, if God eternally experiences all things. God‘s eternal experience of all things would necessitate the eternal existence of all things. Because God‘s eternal experience of all things necessitates the eternal existence of all things, then all things and all people have always existed and will always exist, if it’s true that God‘s eternal experience has always and will always experience the past, present, and future.

If God does not always and will not always experience the past, present, and future, then there is change to the experience of God which is contrary to the "Eternal Now" position, contrary to the philosophy that God experiences no “before“ and no “after“ but is at an “eternal stand still“. But if God eternally experiences past, present, and future, then all of the past, present, and future, with all of those in it, are eternal as well.

If all things are experienced by God eternally, then all things (including time) must be eternal. If God eternally experiences time, then time must eternally exist, and is therefore not created. Therefore if "Eternal Now" is true, time could not have been created, since time has been eternally experienced by God. This again is self-contradictory to the point that the "Eternal Now" view attempts to prove, i.e. that time was created and eternity is the absence of time. If time has been eternally experienced, then time must eternally exist. Therefore time would have no beginning or end since God's experience would have no beginning or end, and according to this view, God's experience goes through no successions or changes. But this is completely self-contradictory to their "Eternal Now" position.

In essence: Eternally experienced = eternally existent = uncreated = eternally existent. If God eternally experiences all things in one changeless moment, then all things eternally exist; and if all eternally exist then all are uncreated; and if all is uncreated then all is eternally existent. This is inevitable if all things are eternally experienced by God “in one changeless, stand-still moment”.

[b]Conclusion:God’s Existence is Linear By Natural Necessity[/b]

There is abundant scriptural evidence for:

[b]1. [/b]God being the Creator of the universe, the Creator of things that are external to His own natural and eternal attributes.

[b]2.[/b] God alone being eternal, while everything else being temporal, that God alone is infinite while everything else is finite.

Based upon these two undisputable scriptural truths, that God is the Creator, and created things temporal and finite while He alone is eternal and infinite, the ancient pagan philosophical view of "Eternal Now" or “eternal still standing” being a natural attribute to God's existence should be utterly rejected as sheer non-sense, being absolutely and utterly recognized as an absurdity. An understanding and acceptance of the biblical truth that time itself is grounded in the succession of God's eternal consciousness, and is therefore a natural and eternal attribute to God's existence, is a vital perception requisite to a proper theology.

God is the God that dwells in the "now". The past is no more except in the eternal memory. It does not exist and is not still occurring in some alternative dimension. And the future is not yet, it is not occurring in some alternative dimension. Only the now is actual reality in all of reality, only the now is occurring. The omnipresence of God includes only realities; it does not include unrealities or anything that is non-existing.

God is everlasting from everlasting, dwelling in never ceasing, never ending present time. He has always existed and will always exist in the now. God's experience of now is eternal. And the saints spending “eternity” in Heaven and the sinners spending “eternity” in hell will not experience a "stand-still" joy or a "stand-still" torment but will experience never ceasing, never ending duration of pain or pleasure; an eternal succession of bliss or an eternal succession of misery. Such is the nature of “eternal life” and “eternal damnation” presented in the scriptures - perpetuation of consciousness. Eternity is never ceasing experience, the never ending consciousness of an onward, perpetual, forward, linear motion without termination. And such is a natural, eternal attribute of God's very being, because of the eternal self-consciousness of the Godhead.

Since time cannot be created, being a self contradiction and requiring a natural impossibility, then it must be an internal, eternal attribute to the being and existence of God, since God alone is eternal. His eternal self-consciousness being the foundation for time, which attribute of self-consciousness we were made with, being made in His image. Thereby God is naturally experiencing duration, as we are naturally experiencing duration, since God is eternally self-conscious and we were created self-conscious, made in the image of His own existence.

God's nature or natural attributes are never changing but are eternal. The personality of God is made up of Intelligence, Sensibilities, and Free-Will; and such are the eternal elements of His personality. But God’s personality has succession of experiences. God is a God who experiences succession of reality, the successions of events, who has succession of emotions, thoughts, and decisions.

"Eternal Now" or “eternal stand still” is contrary to the very nature of God's personality, contrary to His active linear existence of being. His eternal attributes essentially require that He be in the progressive now. The God of reality is not the god of Philosophy, but is the God of Scripture. God is not a stagnant, passive, frozen Being outside of our realm of personal experience; but He is a dynamic, active, creative, personal God, which created our own being and our own existence in the very image of His own. And all who have a personal relationship with Him, and expect an eternal relationship with Him, consciously or subconsciously affirm His existence as being eternally such and not at all as an "eternal stand still" as some philosophical theologians have dogmatically assumed.


[b]Scriptures attributing succession to the experience of God;[/b] actively creating that which previously was non-existent, experiencing the sequence of emotions, making new plans, changing old plans, not hearing then succeeding to hearing His people, etc:

Gen 1:1-31, Gen 6:6, Gen 22:12, Exo 32:14, Num 11:1-2, Num 14:12-20, Num 16:20-35, Num 16:41-48, Jud 2:18, Jud 10:13-16, 1Sam 8:18, 1Sam 15:35, 1Sam 23:10-13, 2Sam 24:12-16, 2Sam 24:17-25, 1Kings 21:21-29, 2Kings 13:3-5, 1Chron 21:15, 2Chron 7:12-14, Isaiah 46:9-10, Isaiah 38:4-5, Jer 7:5-7, Jer 26:19, Jer 38:17-18, Jer 38:21, Eze 20:5-22, Eze 33:13-15, Hos 11:8-9, Jonah 3:10, Amo 7:3-6, Job 35:13, Ps 7:11, Ps 40:5, Ps 66:18, Matt 25:41, Acts 15:7, Acts 21:10-12, 2Pet 3:8

P
philologos May 6, 2007

Is this the beginner's guide to Open Theism?
There is another 'beginner's guide' to Open Theism on [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism]wikipedia[/url]
There is another uselful introductory article [url=http://www.ondoctrine.com/20openth.htm]here,[/url] and another [url=http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/read_articles.asp?id=69]here.[/url]

This last URL is part of a series on Open Theism that you can find [url=http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/articles_list_alpha.asp?alpha=O]here.[/url]

U
UniqueWebRev May 6, 2007

Jesse,

You are forgetting a good dea, and assuming too much. God is all powerful, and can create a timeline within eternity. God can be everwhere and everywhen as He chooses. And, although God is eternal, He does change His mind from time to time. And although He is eternal, what we call eternity was most likely created by God, and to Him, might be experienced very differently than we suppose.

Or did you forget...'With God, all things are possible'?

Blessings,

Forrest

sermonindex May 6, 2007

Logic is a flawed system created by a fallen race to make sense of a sinful universe.

I fear our feeble minds are unable to comprehend one billionth of the awsome majesty of the Lord God.

It's fun to try though. >;')

U
UniqueWebRev May 6, 2007


Corey_H wrote:

It's fun to try though. >;')

Oh, Corey, you always make me laugh!

Bless you,

Forrest

R
RobertW May 6, 2007

God is the God that dwells in the "now". The past is no more except in the eternal memory. It does not exist and is not still occurring in some alternative dimension. [u]And the future is not yet, it is not occurring in some alternative dimension.[/u] Only the now is actual reality in all of reality, only the now is occurring. The omnipresence of God includes only realities; it does not include unrealities or anything that is non-existing.

I would propose rethinking this view very seriously. As with much of the teaching of Finney on the atonement, this attempt to explain free-will also does damage to it.

Heb 9:26-27

Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (NAS)

This is Christ at the consummation of the ages making atonement for the sins of all time. This is Christ setting time aside and appearing at the end of all ages to offer Himself once and for all for sins (See Matt 13:39 for def. of end of age). This is why He has not had to die over and over again. The sin has been atoned for; but the appropriation of the sacrifice determines who will benefit from the atonement.

Heb 9:11-14

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Christ as our Great High Priest entered once at the end of all ages into the Tabernacle made without hands to obtain eternal redemption for those that are being saved (see also Rev. 13:8). This Tabernacle is in Heaven. It was necessary also that it also be purged. The pattern is set forth... [i]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh...[/i] The sacrifice was burned and the ashes were kept for later. Running water was added and they could be appropriated accordingly. No water- no cleansing. No ashes- no cleansing. [i]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?[/i] The Holy Spirit is frequently referred to metaphorically as 'water'. The sacrifice of our Lord is appropriated (applied) to the sinner because it was offered through the [u]Eternal[/u] Spirit. This is forwards and backwards. This is why God could forgive Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc., because the effect of the sacrifice having been made at the end of all ages was 'captured' in the eternal Spirit (The Holy Spirit). This is why what happened 2000 years ago will forgive sins 2000 years from now (if time carries on). Forgiveness of sins exists until the end of all ages because that is when The High Priest went into the Temple with the blood. It was offered at some unknown point in the future corresponding to the end of all ages and covers all sins that are past (which would be the sins of all the ages).

Access into this finished work is by grace through faith. This is why Hebrews 11 in there. No matter what age the person lived the sacrifice of Christ made in the end of the ages benefitted them. This is why God could forgive sins and allow men to approach. In God's knowledge it was a done deal. He already saw it.

However, there is a sequence to events as they play out on the earth that have to be taken into account. While Jesus was on the earth the Holy Spirit could not yet come. There is a bit of mystery here, but it is evident that God allows things to play out also as if He is not taking into account what He already knows. He allows things to play out so that every mouth may be stopped. We might throw in the towel if we knew we would lose the game at the end, it is human nature. But God is not like man and His thoughts are not our thoughts. He would in effect come to bat and attempt to hit a home run at every opportunity until the nineth inning ended. That is just how He is. Even if He knows the persons soul will be lost He continues to deal with them the same. He responds to their response to His initial response. It is a process. And God will work through it until the end. Why? I ask that because I am human and my thoughts are not God's. Futile? Maybe, but it is God's way of doing things. This is why He says in Hebrews 2 times- TODAY if you will hear His voice harden not your hearts. There is always opportunity to respond to God while He is calling. There is no need to constrain God to any kind of time construct in order to explain anything. God is doing what He is doing and He is calling people to repentance and faith.

P
philologos May 7, 2007

This view eliminates all the 'omnis' or 'alls' from the attributes of God.

Omniscience is 'all knowing', but the God of Open Theism is not 'all knowing'.

Omnipresent is 'all present' ie everywhere, but the God of Open Theism is not everywhere, He is just in the 'now'.

Omnipotent is 'all powerful' but the God of Open Theism is not all powerful because there are things beyond His power.

If God is infinite there is nothing that is 'outside' God and nothing of past present or future that is not known to Him. If God's knowledge can be 'improved' by subsequent experience He is 'imperfect'.

John was given a vision of the throne and of the Lamb. The Lamb has passed through death and was standing. He is described as having 7 horns and 7 eyes. Horns are the symbols of power, and eyes are the symbols of knowledge. Seven is the number of completion or perfection.

This vision was given to reassure John that the Lamb had all power and all knowledge. If he has all knowledge but lacks some power there would be contexts in which he was unable to be a Saviour. If he has all power but lacks some knowledge, there could be contexts which would escape his care and providential provision. Our Lamb has 7 eyes and 7 horns. I reject Jesse's attempt to impair his vision.

sermonindex May 7, 2007

Oh, Corey, you always make me laugh!

There's one! I must have a singular wit. Hehe.

L
Logic May 7, 2007

Say that God is not [b]in[/b] the future but only [b]knows[/b] it as it is now.
[/b]Psalm 139:16[/b] [color=990000]but with your own eyes you saw my body being formed. Even before I was born, you had written in your book everything I would do.[/color]

If God only knows the future He would use a book.
If God is in the future He would see.

If God is in the futuer, that would mean that the future exists now in another dimention as Lazarus1719 mentioned.

P
philologos May 7, 2007

I would recommend that Jesse reads something like A W Tozer's "the knowledge of the holy" and particularly the chapters on [url=http://glorifyhisname.com/sys-tmpl/koh10/]"The Divine Omniscience"[/url] and the one on [url=http://glorifyhisname.com/sys-tmpl/koh8/]"God's Infinitude".[/url]

The chapter on the Omniscience of God begins the second paragraph with To say that God is omniscient is to say that He possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. But it is more: it is to say that God has never learned and cannot learn. If Jesse is right Tozer is completely wrong. If Tozer is right Jesse is completely wrong.

sermonindex May 7, 2007

Jesse, I'm afraid I got lost in this one, it was just so long!

Seems to be playing philosophy mind games. Like ?Bishop Butler, who philosophised that nothing existed except when observed by someone else.

A limerick was written:

[i][color=000066]There was a young man who said, God
Must think it exceedingly odd
If he finds that this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the Quad.[/color][/i]

To which the good Bishop apparently replied

[i][color=000066]Dear Sir:
Your astonishment's odd:
I am always about in the Quad.
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be,
Since observed by
Yours Faithfully,
GOD.[/color][/i]


Jeannette

sermonindex May 12, 2007

Omniscience is 'all knowing', but the God of Open Theism is not 'all knowing'.

Open Theism says that God has all knowledge, that is, God knows all that there is to know.

Does God know that I have a 12 year old son? Not at all. "Well, then you are taking away from God's omniscience. If God is omniscient, he knows you have a 12 year old son."

No, I am not taking away from God's omniscience. Why? Because I don't have a 12 year old son.

Likewise, if the future is open, God must know it as such. To say that God does not know that the future is all exhaustively determined does not take away from His omniscience, if in fact the future is not exhaustively settled.

Our future moral decisions haven't been made yet. They are contingent, not certain. And if contingent, and not certain, then they are not exhaustively knowable, because they are not objects of knowledge.

God knows all that is an object of knowledge. But new knowledge is originated when you make certain choices that were previously contingent. Open Theism then does not take away from God's omniscience, since omniscience is knowing all objects of knowledge, yet some things which will be objects of knowledge are not yet objects of knowledge.

Omnipresent is 'all present' ie everywhere, but the God of Open Theism is not everywhere, He is just in the 'now'.

God is everywhere that there is to be. Is God present on the Death Star? Not if the Death Star does not exist in reality.

God is present in all of reality. But if the now is the only reality that is reality, God is in all of it. And if the past is no longer a reality, no longer occuring in an alternative dimention, and if the future hasn't happened yet, not occuring in an alternative dimention, it is not taking away from the omnipresence of God to say that He does not dwell in non-realities.

Omnipotent is 'all powerful' but the God of Open Theism is not all powerful because there are things beyond His power.

God cannot change His eternal, unchangable attributes. If God's eternal, natural attribute is dwelling in an "eternal now stand-still" realm, He wouldn't be able to change it. And if God's eternal, natural attribute is living in a linear fashion, He wouldn't be able to change it.

But only in the Open Theist view can God have a free-will. Not only would man's free-will be bound by foreknowledge, but God would be bound by foreknowledge.

If God has exhaustive foreknowledge of everything, and His foreknowledge is accurate (which it would be of coarse) then God cannot act contrary to His own foreknowledge, just as man could not act contrary to God's foreknowledge.

But what is free will? Free will is the power of contrary choice. But exhaustive foreknowledge renders such a power a mere apparent ability, but not an actual ability, since no choice could have been contrary to what it was, as God foresaw what it would be.

But was Jesus bound by foreknowledge when He said He could pray for 12 legions of angels to come and deliver Him? Certainly not. The future was open. It was contingent. He could willingly lay down his life, or could pray for 12 legions of angels. Neither God, nor man, are bound by foreknowledge, but both God and man have the power of contrary choice, because the future is open and choices are contingent not certain.

L
Logic May 12, 2007

Lazarus1719 wrote:

But was Jesus bound by foreknowledge when He said He could pray for 12 legions of angels to come and deliver Him? Certainly not. The future was open. It was contingent. He could willingly lay down his life, or could pray for 12 legions of angels. Neither God, nor man, are bound by foreknowledge, but both God and man have the power of contrary choice, because the future is open and choices are contingent not certain.


That is Molinism, of which, I am in total favore towards.
However, wouldn't what you mentiond be a counterfactual?

Like:
If I did not Eat the cookie that is now gone, then someone else did.
If I had not merried my wife, then someone else would have.

Don't forget [b]Matthew 11:23[/b] [color=990000]for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.[/color]

J
JaySaved May 12, 2007

Jesse, this might all sound nice on a paper, but it is so fundamentally flawed. First, God is not bound to time as we know it. This is the most powerful argument against Open Theism.

Secondly, if God cannot know the future then why did He predict so many things successfully in OT?

Also, how can your God make the statement "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place."

If Open Theism is correct this this verse should say, "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to show to his servants the things that might soon take place depending if certain people do certain things because I can't really know; since man can thwart my plans

You are in error brother, please listen to your friends here at SI.

C
Christinyou May 12, 2007

Colossians 2:4-12 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. ((((((Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,)))))) after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

J
JaySaved May 13, 2007

Psalm 139:4 and 16

4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

J
JaySaved May 13, 2007

But was Jesus bound by foreknowledge when He said He could pray for 12 legions of angels to come and deliver Him? Certainly not. The future was open. It was contingent. He could willingly lay down his life, or could pray for 12 legions of angels. Neither God, nor man, are bound by foreknowledge, but both God and man have the power of contrary choice, because the future is open and choices are contingent not certain.

Jesus did have the ability to call the angels, but He never considered calling them because it was not God's will. Jesus said in John 5:19, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise."

Jesus was bound by God's plan. Luke 24:26-27 "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."

Doesn't sound very contingent...sounds very predetermined. I believe early Christians would agree:

Acts 4
23When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

"'Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed'--

27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

D
dohzman May 13, 2007

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

If God is in the futuer, that would mean that the future exists now in another dimention as Lazarus1719 mentioned.

At what point does the future exsistance start? That statement would have to presume the exsistance of human beings in that dimension. And at what point or increment of time would this type of logic allocate to or for a starting point and a new starting point? It's very core is flawed, good for sci-fi I guess, that's probably why some people live to be in there 100's and other die so early in life, that by and in itself disproves such an idea.BTW God lives outside of time, time is after all part of His creation.

L
Logic May 13, 2007

I'm not saying hat God is in a nother demention or that He is in the future.
I will say that He know the future as it is now, even though it does not exist yet.

As far as prophecy goes, God eather knows it will happen and ''Declaring the end from the beginning'' or He makes it happen by manipulation.

BTW God lives outside of time, time is after all part of His creation

I wouldn't think that time is a creation, it is a mesurment of elapsed happenings(movements).
How would God be outside of a mesurment of that which happens?

Furthermore, man created the way he mesures time based on the movement of the Sun and Earth.
Now, it's based on the atomic vibration of cesium 133 which needs to be reset every now and then because of the slowing down of the Earths spin.

E
elected May 13, 2007

Quote:
Psalm 139:4 and 16

4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

Open theisem deminishes God's knowledge, i believe it's a very sophisticated philosophy that tries to explain God and his attributes by siple logic and lieving no room for awe, wonder and for that which is unexplanable.

There are those new theologians who have come with this briliant new idea of God as if it has been hidden for ages and now revealed at the end of times to those who "understand" him by the genuis of their mind.

these "new truths" are like a "new gosple" and "new undertanding of God" i better prefer the old truths that have been revealed since the ancient of times through prophets and apostles and believed by the CHURCH for 2000 years.

If God knows before i speak every word of mine and if he knows all the days of my life before i was born that means he knows my personal future life with all it's choices.

God doesnt live in time only but time lives in God because he is the Author of creation and time.

God is everywhere in time and beyond time and he was there before time came to existence.If God lives only in time it means he is constantly changing himself(what a scary idea), so He is not unchangeable.......away with such philosophy.....God is all perfect in all of his attributes and perfections otherwise he would be a " small god". Let us be careful not to rob God the glory that is due to him.

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