forgiveness without repentance?

Hi sscot,
My thoughts on this interesting question.

Repent and believe... Grace comes before repentance and belief. And without any conditions. How else are we to feel the need for repentance?.What faith did Paul have before his conversion?These people you mentioned could have been struggling with their sins and Christ answered their deepest concerns on this issue.To have faith as a condition of forgiveness seems a works issue.Faith follows grace and repentance follows faith. The greater the faith and belief the more need for repentance.
I am always sinning,always repenting and will only be free of this the day I die.My only hope is in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Greetings.
deathdancer.

It does not say the man on the mat had faith but seem's to imply the ones who brought the man had faith. Yet Jesus forgave this mans sins. Even if this man had faith as well Jesus forgave him without any mention of repentance.

Personally, I think it was five. For two reasons, although there may be more.

The first is that this man allowed his 'friends' to take him up the outside stairs onto the roof, then watched as they pulled up the roofing and then allowed himself to be winched down into the room below. I think he might have said something if he was not in agreement with the actions of his friends. ;-)

The second is this very topic which you have raised. Why would Christ 'impose' forgiveness upon someone who felt he had no need for it. What did Christ know about this man's sickness that we don't know? Why begin to talk about sins when the man, as far as most people may have known, was just paralysed. Is it possible that Christ knew of some connection between this man's past and his current sickness? “Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14 KJVS)In your second case forgiveness is not really mentioned. As with quite a few stories in the NT is not 'finished' in the way of a novel but leaves lots of ends untied. The Lord doesn't specifically 'forgive' this women but simply says that he doesn't 'sentence' her. [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=8&verse=11&strongs=2632&page=1&flag_full=1]katakrinO[/url] is really one stage further on that 'judging'. It is the guilty verdict and the pronouncement of the sentence. He refused to do this but that in itself is not the same as saying he 'forgave' her.

George Mueller had a very interesting salvation experience. . . . he had lived a life of sin as a young man, but was saved after attending a Bible study and hearing/meditating on the Word of God. However, at the time he was NOT overwhelmed with a sense of his great sin. He was later, though -- a few weeks or months after he was saved; only then did it begin to sink in how offensive his sin was before a holy God. Then he exhibited true repentance.

This account comes from Pierson's autobiography of Mueller.

Hi there! You know I have thought of this many times. It is my own experience That when I came to know the Lord I did not feel the need of repentence, The need I had was of a savoir and He saved me, then when I recieved the Holy spirit I knew about the need to repent. I do not believe that an un regenerate person can truly know about repentence. Unless you are born of God you cannot see the kingdom of God. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal what we are and what we need to repent of. It seems the more I know God the more I see the need for repentence, the more He shows me my inmost hidden sin..dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. I think it is impossible for a person without the power of Gods Spirit to repent...

these are my thoughts to your question.
in the instance where men are brought to Jesus and he says: and seeing there faith, he said unto them thy sins be forgiven thee... it may be quoted a little cifferent in the gospels, but, when a lost person comes to Jesus Christ and sees his need of salvation and realizes he is lost. the 1st thing we would tell them is(this is summed up)they need to believe God, that includes having faith in God as we believe Him. and on that basis we ask the Lord for forgiveness for our sins and to be washed in the blood, to be saved. i think we often have a mentality that in leading a soul to christ we need them to repent of individual sins and if they forgot 1 in the process, they arent quite saved yet, rather repentance is a fruit or result of believing God and having faith in his word. I dont have anything against confession of individual sins, i believe it has its place, but it isnt a prerequsite to being saved. God looks at our faith and says, your faith has made you whole. i dont know whether these sick men brought to Jesus were "saved" yet. but God must have seen there faith and honoured that. i hope you see my heart and i hope this makes sense. correct me if you think im in error

The answer is most likely something like this:

Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Blessings Greg

I was searching for some information on this...
I am very very confused.
You see, when I read the Bible, it seems very clear that repentance comes first. Maybe not every scripture is explicit on it, but I mean the spirit of the words of scripture says to me "repent and believe". And so when my pastor started neglecting repentance (or when I noticed he was) I went to talk to him about it. I really felt like God led me to tell the pastor that he needed to preach on repentance.
There is a lot of worldliness in my church even though everyone says they repented. I feel like they don't get taught what repentance is.
I professed my faith before I repented of my sins, but then I lived in sin for about a year. How could that be saving faith if I just kept sinning?
What is believing in Christ if we don't turn from our sins? Just escaping judgment? Just "loving God" as I hear sometimes?
The pastor thinks that if he makes everyone fall in love with Christ, that they will just repent automatically. Even though he preaches that hell exists I was never sure why I deserved it until someone else explained it. Am I being nitpicky or is it the big deal I think it is?

sscott,

You got a lot of interesting replies to your question. Now I will share mine...

Ihave noticed in different incidents when Jesus healed he will mention their sins. To me the issue is not so much a forgiveness/repentance one but that when Jesus encounters sin in any form it must be addressed. Jesus will confront it when he has the opportunity to do so. Seems to me this is the grester issue in these incidents. Compromise with sin is an impossibility with Jesus.

About the woman 'caught in adultry'. The OT law required that in an incident like this that both would be stoned. So were the Pharisees not being hypocritical by not bring the man in with the woman? He was just as guilty under the law as she was, why make the difference? Where these men not saying that women are more deserving of punishment for sin then males? Seems to me this is the greater issue here. Jesus did tell her to go and sin no more, indicating that repentance was expected.

This entire issue is summed up in Luke 24:47 (NASB): "and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." This verse should answer all questions pertaining to this issue. What do you think?

ginnyrose

This entire issue is summed up in Luke 24:47 (NASB): "and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." This verse should answer all questions pertaining to this issue. What do you think?

Hope wrote:

He told me I was trying to put him in a corner by "holding one verse over [his] head".

This response sounds normal from someone who is working evade the issue.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Is there something significant in that most repentance teachings (that is, other than telling the hypocrites to repent from rejecting Him) occur after Jesus has been crucified? That is in epistles and in His words after? It seems belief is the emphasis of His teachings before His death and resurrection. I could be wrong though.

I believe one of the biggest reasons for this confusion about repentance and forgiveness is the view of these things as two seperate one time deals. The question, "Which comes first: forgiveness or repentance?" is irrelevant, because you cannot have one without the other. Repentance is a style of life and forgiveness is an ongoing event. When repentance stops, so does forgiveness.

Nile

Does not repentance come from obedience to do what is right and true. Obedience does not make son's of God, but son's of god come into obedience by the things they suffer as son's, by the chastening of the Father to son's. Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

So sonship must come first for repentance to do the work of God in man, just like Jesus Christ, "He learned obedience by the things He suffered".

If we look at the scripture to "repent and be baptized", what is said?

Acts 2:37-39 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

How are our sins remitted? 1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

To confess sin and know we are forgiven we must be son's of God by the Son that is in us. Or confession means nothing for forgiveness is with the advocate, Jesus Christ, and unless He is our Lord there is no advocate. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If a man sins in the flesh, that means nothing to the spirit of a man for His Spirit is Christ and He that born from above cannot sin. So flesh sins can be forgiven by confession and the advocate Jesus Christ by His Cross from the Father cleanses us from all unrighteousness. But the spirit of a man cannot sin for it is Jesus Christ.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Repent and be baptized must come after the birthing of son's, then they are from God, not from man.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is how two scripture that seem apposed to each other come from the wisdom of Christ by the Holy Spirit. ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
This is man who sin not the Spirit of Christ that is born from above in him cannot sin.

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The sin unto death is denial of the Son of God is His Only Begotten Son of God.

I can sin in the flesh and if I do I have an advocate with the Father, that is Jesus Christ the Righteous.

The Christ in me that is born from above cannot sin.

In Christ: Phillip

Great Question!

To start with we should note that John the Baptist, Jesus and the early church all preached repentance(See Mark 1:4, 14-15; Acts 2:38). Paul descibed the gospel he preached this way in Acts 26:20 "...I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." We have to conclude from Scripture that repentance is a critical part of the gospel's message.

As we are saved by grace through faith, some may say repentance need not precede our coming to Christ and being saved. I personally have trouble understanding how one could come in faith to God without repentance. If one worships "god as they want him to be," they may be so bold as to approach him unrepentant of sin. But that god does not exist and cannot save. The God who is and was and is to come as revealed in Scripture is loving and forgiving, but also just and holy. When one comes to God as he is, I expect they understand that they cannot stay as they are. God alone has made salvation possible, but for us to receive that blessed gift, we must by faith turn from sin and toward he who saves.

Concerning the passages mentioned: With the sinful woman, as one noted earlier, Jesus clearly expected repentance. Also note that Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:17 that "God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Why? Because those who do not believe are condemned already. Based on these things, I do not think we should be bothered by the passage of the woman caught in adultery. Whether her encounter with Christ birthed belief in her heart or not, we know that he expected her to walk in repentance.

The other account mentioned is very interesting. Jesus seemed intent not only to show that he could heal, but also forgive sin. Sometimes sickness is caused by sin (John 5:14). Perhaps that is why Jesus said what he did. However, I think it is reasonable to assume the paralytic also had faith.

I am wary of assuming that both of these people received salvation as we think of it based upon Jesus' response to them. It is possible, but we should meditate on it before we assume that as the reality.

I can't say I understand it all, but in light of the rest of Scripture, I continue to conclude that one cannot receive salvation without turning from sin.