Question on Romans 11

I would like those who hold or lean towards Calvinism to answer this questions because I don't understand how these verses fit's with Romans 11 seems go go from Gods Election and grace to warning the Elect of falling away.

[b]Romans 11:4-5:
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [/b]

So there is a remnant according the God's Election and grace.

but in Romans 11:21-22 it says:

[b]21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. [/b]

Here God is warning the Elect that they can be cut off. So my question, for those who hold to Calvinism, is how can God's Elect be cut off?

I've been musing on the word 'elect', myself. Suddenly, last week, I realised it is JESUS who used it here, and Paul and the others were (only) following His lead. This is not a theological mistake, though we may have trouble tuning in to the best way to understand the term.

Matthew 24:24
"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

For the moment, I'm settling on the thought that it generally means 'called out', rather than chosen for one's own merits.

Just for the record, I'm not claiming to be either Calvinist (though I believe in God's sovereignty) or Armenian (though I hear Jesus saying 'whosoever will, may come'). And I think I believe more and more that God is after a relationship with man. Intrinsically, to get into this relationship, we must receive and obey His 'Maker's instructions' - or nothing works.

Jay, Paul is talking to BELIEVERS who have been grafted in.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, [b]wert grafted in among them,[/b] and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The Gentile believers were grafted in with the Jewish believers and wanred they they could again be cut off. One cannot be GRAFTED into Christ and not be part of Christ. Those who are grafted in have to be elect right?

also the whole chapter/letter is written to believers.

Jay said

Not all natural branches are cut off but a majority are.

I noticed (Jay) your correct comment about 'Fulfilment Theology' in the "replacement theology" thread, and want to remind you that the whole point of the New Covenant is a completely fresh start for everyone who engages with it meaningfully. Jews as well as Gentiles have to receive the death of Jesus Christ to their flesh (natural inheritance) as well as their sinful nature. To all intents and purposes, when the Messiah was [u]cut off[/u] but not for His own sins, the entire human race was formally cut off from God also, so that the only way back into fellowship with Him (grafting into the olive tree and the Vine), is by faith in the death and resurrection of Christ.

It is extremely beguiling for Israelites / Jews to imagine they bring something to their own salvation through their natural inheritance, when in fact they have been concluded under sin with the rest of us. If that is accepted, then they qualify for that peculiar kingdom of priests, as He always desired for them.

Jay,

I believe there is no difference between saved Jew and saved gentile, as they are one in Christ; we are all part of the royal priesthood and holy nation (etc).

What I was trying to say in my previous post is that I have come across carnal thinking which is forgetful that Israelite / Jew is [i]excluded[/i] from this ministry until born again / adopted. (Sorry about the double negative...)

Are we agreed (do you think)?

They can't. The very fact that they are cut off proves that they were not elect.

How can you say they can't when Paul says they can.

Paul is speaking to believers:

Notice verses 19-20

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

Notice Paul is talking to believers who have been grafted in and WHO STAND BY FAITH.

Then in verses 21-22 he warns them about being cut off.

And again, to show Paul is talking to believers look at verse 30:

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,

Paul says they were ONCE DISOBEDIENT. Now they are obedient and have obtained mercy.

rookie said

This particular passage speaks of those in each generation are holy because the root that nourishes them are holy. Each branch is representative of a holy generation of people. This interpretation is seated in the following verses that precede it...

In the above section of Scripture we find that in the generation of Elijah, there were 7000 men who did not bow their knee to Baal, [u]which means they were not the seed of the devil[/u].

Speaking for myself, I don't think one can say this in the same way about those under the Old Covenant as one can about those under the New.

Under the Old, the Jews were holy by remaining separated unto God and following the commandments. Any who were worshipping Baal, ought to have been put to death, and certainly their souls would have been cut off from God as a punishment.

When Jesus said:

John 8:44
"You are of [i]your[/i] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [i]does not[/i] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [i]resources,[/i] for he is a liar and the father of it.

He was speaking of the state of mankind in general, not just the Jews that didn't believe in Him (I believe). And this would be true of those who didn't bow to Baal also, even though through the Law, they were counted 'holy'.

On the matter of a 'generation', this also is an Old Covenant truth.

(Young) Genesis 5
1 This [i]is[/i] an account of the births of Adam: In the day of God's preparing man, in the likeness of God He hath made him;
2 a male and a female He hath prepared them, and He blesseth them, and calleth their name Man, in the day of their being prepared.

(KJV) Genesis 5
1 This [i]is[/i] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

(NKJV) Genesis 5
1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created.

Both the KJV and Young keep the sense of plural generations. But when we come to Christ, we find:

(NKJV) Matthew 1:1
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

(KJV) Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Does the 'generation' of Jesus Christ all have God as their Father?

Isn't this how the human inheritance of 'your father the devil' is finally dealt with - by the crucifixion of our old man (Rom 6:6) - and the terms of [i]our[/i] 'holiness' are not because we are separated by keeping the Law but by grace through faith we are able to walk in the Spirit 'in newness of life' (Rom 6:4)?