[b]Crowd Surfing
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=9ff5afeaec72d54436fc
"If you try and win the world by being like the world, the world will win you!" - Keith Daniel
And sadly it has in many contemprary evangelical circles. We need to forsake this lukewarm, worldly christianity and embrace the genuine article. Contemprary christian music has played a large part in the major downfall of the modern church.
Contemprary christian music has played a large part in the major downfall of the modern church.
It’s very sad that so many people believe that if it has a “Christian” label…it’s Christian. This is not a Biblical way to think at all. “Family safe” is the other one that really gets me.
I personally do not have cable or satellite, but when I visit my parents I will see some of the most shocking things ever, and this is just while walking past the TV room…and they have Sky Angel!
)Sky Angel is “Family Safe/Christian” satellite)
You are very right Greg. This type of activity so troubles me, many are terribly deceived.
I wonder what type of devotion or sermon followed.
I agree so much with both of you. I read two very nice articles by Tozer about it. In one he compared this to the golden calf...
"It is now common practice in most evangelical churches to offer the people, especially the young people, a maximum of entertainment and a minimum of serious instruction. It is scarcely possible in most places to get anyone to attend a meeting where the only attraction is God. One can only conclude that God's professed children are bored with Him, for they must be wooed to meeting with a stick of striped candy in the form of religious movies, games and refreshments.
This has influenced the whole pattern of church life, and even brought into being a new type of church architecture, designed to house the golden calf.
So we have the strange anomaly of orthodoxy in creed and heterodoxy in practice. The striped-candy technique has been so fully integrated into our present religious thinking that it is simply taken for granted. Its victims never dream that it is not a part of the teachings of Christ and His apostles.
Any objection to the carryings on of our present golden-calf Christianity is met with the triumphant reply, "But we are winning them!" And winning them to what? To true discipleship? To cross-carrying? To self-denial? To separation from the world? To crucifixion of the flesh? To holy living? To nobility of character? To a despising of the world's treasures? To hard self-discipline? To love for God? To total committal to Christ? Of course the answer to all these questions is no." -Religious Boredom by Tozer
This was the other article which is even cooler.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=161
Those articles by tozer really say it all. I have often struggled with "this mess" in my mind and prayers. We have a large youth group at our church and some think that this contempory thing is the only thing that will attract the kids. I have come to disagree but as of now am just a lone voice in the wilderness. I feel/know what really attracts people is the Holy spirit. To often though churches seem to major in the minors and minor in the majors (confession,repentance,holiness) Sadly I'm afraid that it is more about the "form of Godliness" without the content! These are serious times and I fear lest a whole generation(s) of young people lose thier soul in false easy believeism. In prayer.
"It is now common practice in most evangelical churches to offer the people, especially the young people, a maximum of entertainment and a minimum of serious instruction. It is scarcely possible in most places to get anyone to attend a meeting where the only attraction is God. One can only conclude that God's professed children are bored with Him, for they must be wooed to meeting with a stick of striped candy in the form of religious movies, games and refreshments.This has influenced the whole pattern of church life, and even brought into being a new type of church architecture, designed to house the golden calf.
So we have the strange anomaly of orthodoxy in creed and heterodoxy in practice. The striped-candy technique has been so fully integrated into our present religious thinking that it is simply taken for granted. Its victims never dream that it is not a part of the teachings of Christ and His apostles.
Any objection to the carryings on of our present golden-calf Christianity is met with the triumphant reply, "But we are winning them!" And winning them to what? To true discipleship? To cross-carrying? To self-denial? To separation from the world? To crucifixion of the flesh? To holy living? To nobility of character? To a despising of the world's treasures? To hard self-discipline? To love for God? To total committal to Christ? Of course the answer to all these questions is no."
Hello,
i watched the video, and i perfectly understand your concerns.
But...i don't know.
You know, i have been to brazil for the last 3 months and have experienced church life here.
One could say that there is a little "revival" going on here.
At least, the church I am visiting is growing every day and the Pastor(s) are preaching holiness and radical living.
It is not counterfeit, even though I do have some little concerns with some teachings, but these are minor things.
So, I have come to realize that the people here are different. They listen to different music, have different pasttimes and have a different style of clothing.
They do not sing hymns, they don't even know hymns. Often the worship is loud and people are jumping like in that video.
I was asking god about this...and on my way to being judgmental I believe he showed me that I cannot judge according to STYLE.
I cannot judge according to outward appereance.
As i said, i perfectly understand your concerns and with most things I agree, but if i would show you a video from the church here in brazil, you would propably think the same.
But I can assure you that people here are being won for true discipleship, cross carrying holy living and truly loving god.....even though their outward way of worshipping god, their mentality and their style may offend our perception of "holiness".
I hope I was able to put my thoughts into right english :)
just my 2 cents..
This may bring a bit of understanding to why some are so discouraged by what was shown in that video
"If you try and win the world by being like the world, the world will win you!" - Keith Daniel
I scanned godtube.com, much of the stuff on there is grievous
Hey -daniel
In the Middle and South Americas, you guys do have a very party-like, loud atmosphere. In Africa, they have dances in their worship.
There is probably a place for this. Even Jewish music gets pretty bouncy and has a dance that goes with it. And baptists sometimes do clap, hehe.
However, it seems that worship is being made a time to have fun, apart from the joy that God gives you Himself. Those people hopping aren't hopping because of God, they are hopping because of the drums and because thats what secular people do when they listen to this music. It isn't impossible to want to hop for God, but if we are honest with ourselves we know that isn't what is happening here.
No matter what culture you're in, there should be something like hymns, I think. In America, everybody hates hymns. I love hymns. Why do I love hymns? Because the barely adorned music leads me to contemplate my Savior only, and I am not distracted by a bunch of other clamoring instruments and voices. The lyrics are God-centered and much more edifying than the CCM that the rest of America listens to. And the reason I love hymns, are the reason they don't.
But should Brazil and Africa have the very same hymns we do? I don't think so at all. Different cultures have different reactions to beats. I read in a research paper that when missionaries first went to Africa they thought the music was offbeat, but it turned out it was just a complex pattern. Different cultures will want different instruments. And every culture has a way to do the baptist "clap".
But the point is, a time of worship should always have a solemn, contemplative, edifying (we should hear every word!), beautiful section. And when you go to rejoice, and more upbeat music, there must still be humility humility humility. So thats really what we're getting at here. It isn't about style, its about attitude. And it may be strange to the culture you're in but it honors God.
Those are my thoughts... :-)
Hey hopepurifies,
I completely agree with what you have said.
The church here has its "beautiful sections". It is just not the hymns you know.
Anyway, I for myself am glad that I will be back to Europe, soon :)
Again, I understand and agree with most of your concerns!
My whole point was:
You cannot judge about the condition of a people because you saw a 20-second clip of something that may not fit into your perception of holiness.
Do I make sense?
daniel
the reason I love hymns, are the reason they don't.
But the point is, a time of worship should always have a solemn, contemplative, edifying (we should hear every word!), beautiful section. And when you go to rejoice, and more upbeat music, there must still be humility humility humility. So thats really what we're getting at here. It isn't about style, its about attitude. And it may be strange to the culture you're in but it honors God.
Indeed! I believe humility is the thing that is lacking with most modern worship songs.
the only thing i can say I'm so so so so tired and just so utterly grieved at the state of most churches, the video there is to me the "heart" of the Swedish church at large, no different in any other western country i can imagine, i need to be weeping more for his church,
right now I'm just broken, I'm broken because so many people are going to burn in hell, even thou the went to "church" whole their life's. I don't remember who said it but....the largest misssionfield are in our churches....
GOD HELP US, we are so utterly lost i don't think we even realize how far far of the edge we have gone. and the sad thing no one seems to be alarmed,
Speaking about Africa, mid and South America and their 'beats'. I would like to throw more light on this.
Being a missionary in South Africa, we have found that when true repentance and salvation takes place the cultural ties are broken completely. One must therefore understand the root of those traditions.
How far should one go regarding this music thing. I would say as far as possible. One can test the fruit and then plainly see the motive.
Regards,
Revived
I've been involved in churches that were contemporary entertainment oriented. Many times I've heard "this is the way to reach this generation!"...
I have an almost 4 yr old son, and two older sons who were once almost 4 (and another son who will be almost four in another year). Here is a fact: if you put a plate of gummy bears and a plate of meat and veggies in front of him... which will he eat? Gummy bears.
As a parent, what do you do? Let him live on gummy bears? No way! You make that child eat his meat and veggies! Why? Because it's the only way he can grow and be healthy.
So what does the church do? If offers gummy bears thinking once they eat the gummy bears they'll want meat and veggies. Wrong! He wont want meat and veggies because his immediate hunger is met by the gummy bears... but not his nutritional (spiritual) needs.
I like rock music stylistically. It's what I grew up on, however the older I get the easier it is to not be so consumed by it. Lets not debate the merits of musical styles... the issue is the church's attitude that this, and other forms of "entertainment" are the only way to reach this generation of young people. I personally dont think this generation is all that shallow. I think they are looking for truth just as any other generation since Adam has.
If we take the gospel to the streets, and the kids reject it... you know what? We shouldn't be surprised. And on top of that, scripture tells us to dust off our sandels and move on. The world rejected Him, and it will reject us. In the meantime, a few along the way will be prompted by the Holy Spirit to respond.
Scripture says we should compel them to come in... not beg them to come in. Not seduce (entertain) them to come in. It said compel. To me, this means make the offer. Tell them about such a great salvation... but if they slap your hand back, move on. Pray for them, but move on.
Once they do come in, forget the entertainment in order to keep them there. Get the Word of God into them. The Word of God is power, and it is what brings salvation. Not music. Not skits. Not retreats. Not trips to Dollywood.
It's all about the Word of God, and the working of the Holy Spirit thru that Word.
And yes, people like us here on this forum are looked down upon because we oppose this foolishness. So what? One thing coaching has taught me... dont be concerned with what others think. Do whats right.
"oh... you're uncaring, Krispy, because you say we should just walk away from people who reject the gospel!"
No. I just believe in being obedient to God. Jesus said "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6)
Jesus said that... not me.
The entertainment minded church does just the opposite.
Krispy
Ah reckon, I must be living in the boonies! I am mortified with this video! To think people called THAT worship??!! Worship of what?
Now, I responded emotionally. But is that not what music engages - your emotions? To me it is similar to cooking spoiled meat to feed to your guests: it stinks and does not smell edible at all although with thorough cooking it might NOT kill you but it sure would not be appetizing.
Lord, have mercy!
ginnyrose
Being a missionary in South Africa, we have found that when true repentance and salvation takes place the cultural ties are broken completely. One must therefore understand the root of those traditions.
To tell you the truth, this very thing did disrupt my peace a bit. I only stopped listening to my thrash heavy metal a month or a month and a half ago? From there I pretty much ended up getting rid of a ton of music. And now I pretty much listen to the godly music section on here and things that would fit well on there. But then my friends who listen to any music put on a Spanish worship CD that wasn't much different than the stuff I had gotten rid of, just with a few different instruments. And so it stung my conscience a little bit. But I didn't want to judge a "culture". ?
Maybe some of you have heard of Urbana? It is a big conference for missionaries or people thinking about becoming missionaries. At one time I was wondering if missions was for me, and so I went. They seemed pretty ecumenical because they had Rick Warren and female pastors as speakers, and when I confronted the book selling guy about the Emerging Church section in their bookstore, I was told to be open-minded. Not withstanding, Urbana07's central interest was to get us to respect all cultural expressions of Christianity. Indians did a rain dance to Jesus. A girl from Hawaii did the dance thing for God. A drama team did dramas. I'm just not sure about all of it you know? I don't want, like my friends said, to convert the entire world into American Baptists or Presbyterians or whatever. But at the same time... what is holiness? You know?
When Paul says we become all things to all peoples, what does that mean? Does that mean we do rain dances for Indians? I used to use it to justify being a goth (to reach the goths ya know?). But I don't think its right. What does it mean?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%209:19-23;&version=49;
"oh... you're uncaring, Krispy, because you say we should just walk away from people who reject the gospel!"
I enjoyed your post Krispy
A lot of people think we should chase them down and get them in the church at any cost but the examples found in the Bible do not contain this method.
What about the rich young ruler?
Jesus just let him walk away.
Nobody loved him more than Jesus.
I agree HP, there is a line somewhere. We shouldnt go out into the world and turn people from other cultures into middle class Americans. We dont see ourselves as a "culture"... we see ourselves as normal. American Christians are uniqely American. I would suspect a Jamaican Christian is Jamaican. Etc etc...
We dont turn black people into white people when they get saved. And black churches in America are VERY different from white churches. You know what? I love visiting a black church now and then. It's great, and it completely different from a white church. And I want my kids to see it.
God created us in His image, but he also created us different from each other culturally. Many cultures have pagan roots. American culture, which is rooted deeply in Greek culture, has pagan roots.
Does that make American culture evil? Not necessarily... Obviously the sinful evil part of our culture we are to forsake. But I didnt stop being an American, thinking like an American, etc. Nor do I expect and African to stop being or thinking as an African, except in the aspect of sin.
But at the same time, we are called to be a holy people seperated unto God. There is a Christian "culture", if you will, that transcends earthly cultures. If I meet someone from the other side of the world who is a believer, we have an immediate bond and camraderie no matter what the earthly cultural differences may be.
But I'm against getting someone from Zimbabwe saved, and then putting a suit and tie on him and forcing southern gospel music down his throat and making him a clone of an American Christian. In fact, he'd be much better off if he never learned to be like an American Christian.
Krispy
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