Once saved always saved- or "the perserverance of God"

Ok- once again... The bible teaches that when God saves a man THAT MAN WILL BE SAVED in the last day- otherwise that man was never saved.

1 John 3:6 "Whoever (unrepentantly bathes in) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

1 Peter 1:4, 5 "4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

John 3:16 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life;"

John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[a] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 10:28-29 "28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

Eph 1:13, 14 "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

Phil 1:6 "6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;"

Romans 6:14 "14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Phil 2:13 "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

1 John 2:19 "19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Romans 8:38-39 "38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Let me explain...

Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" IT IS CHRIST WHO BEGAN.

Phil 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." IT IS GOD WHO WORKS.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." All who have ever fallen away(permanently) were never saved in the first place.

******If you are TRULY saved(justified) you will continue being saved(sanctified) and will finally be saved(glorified).

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1 John Cpts 2 & 3

"3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"4 Whoever commits(pratices) sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
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God hates sin and somebody who loves sin consequently hates God and is lost. If you are saved you will strive to be holy.

1 Peter 1:16
"because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.""

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

A real conversion is when somebody REPENTS of all thier sin (by the power of God). Turns away from all of it and experiences a radicaly changed life in love for God. If they don't perservere they were not saints. If somebody lives in and practices sin, they are lost.

Its not that by your works you are saved but if you are saved you have works! Otherwise you have a dead faith!

James 2:20
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

James 2:26
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

"Once saved always saved" This phrase is devastating to people who twist things to thier own destruction. The question really is...

2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."

2 Peter 1:10
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble"

WERE YOU SAVED? DID YOU REALLY CHANGE? ARE YOU LIVING IN SIN? DO YOU PRACTICE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?????

Repent, believe, have faith in God, trust Christ's sacrifice, be "Born Again" (or regenerated), follow Christ, obey God, love God, know God, seek God, fear God all the days of your life. Do all these things with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Salvation is by Grace, through faith, in Christ Alone. Be converted! (Provided by God)
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John 10:29
Romans 8:38-39
Ephesians 1:13-14

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." -Martin Luther

I'd like some biblical responses to these scriptures- If any one could explain

1 John 3:6 "Whoever (unrepentantly bathes in) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

I'd like to hear a response. Otherwise, the scriptures are clear.

GraceAlone wrote:
I'd like some biblical responses to these scriptures- If any one could explain

[b]John 3:16[/b] [color=990000]"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."[/color]
What is everlasting life?
[b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000]And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. [/color]
If one listens to preaching "another Gosple" with a difrent Chrsit, one may fall.

[b]John 3:36[/b] [color=990000]"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life;"[/color]
If one may go to a coledge and get indoctrinated to atheism and stop believeing, one might fall.

[b]John 5:24[/b] [color=990000]"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."[/color]
One might hear anothger goisple and belive it and not have everlasting life.

I could go on, but it is about being decieved, that is how one falls from grace.
It's not about how much sin one does to loose salvation, but what one believes.

There sure are a lot of preachers that disagree with this. Zac Poonen has said he never understood how someone could believe in OSAS when there are so many scriptures that contradict it.

Before you ask…I’m not sure which messages he says this in…but it’s more than one.

tjservant wrote:
There sure are a lot of preachers that disagree with this. Zac Poonen has said he never understood how someone could believe in OSAS when there are so many scriptures that contradict it.

Before you ask…I’m not sure which messages he says this in…but it’s more than one.

There are a lot, but right now I'm not sure were they are. ;-) Check out verses about losing first love, enduring to the end, etc.

All I can say is that it sure seems that you can fall away from God and that it's really up to us, because why would we be told to endure to the end if we couldn't fall away from God?

Jordan

This is the scaryest warning I know of:
[b]Matthew 24:24[/b] [color=990000]For false christs and false prophets will rise up. And they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.[/color]

The question is, if they are elect, what are they doing being lead astray?

Have you ever thought that what one belives is what one does? That to believe with the intellect is not to truly believe? The scripture says the devils believe and tremble. What we believe is what we do. That is why Jesus says we shall know them by their fruit. He meant the fruits of the Spirit given in Gal 5. Also to show the difference we are given the works of the flesh just before this.
In Romans chapter 8 we are told that if we live according to the flesh we shall die,but if by the Spirit we do put to death the works of the flesh we shall live. So if we truly believe in Christ we are born of His Spirit and the Spirit of Christ is the revealer of the true path. We cannot be decieved unless we wish to be. Of course we do grow and it is a process but when we are decieved it is usually because we want to leave room for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.

This is my opinion, take it for what it is worth.

I believe that the rejection of the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is a consequence of our unbelief in the awesome power of the gospel of Christ.

Look at these verses:
Romans 14:4, "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Philippians 1:6, "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

Jude 1:24, "Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,"

There are countless others. When we loose sight of the power of the gospel and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life, we are left with the hope that a person will not fall away.

Ray Comfort in his famous 'Hell's Best Kept Secret' sermon said one day that David Wilkerson called him and said, 'I thought I was the only one who hated 'follow-up'. Follow-up is when you take workers in the harvest field and have them go out to make sure the new believers are truly following God. He believes in nurturing a new believer and discipling the new believer...but follow-up to make sure they are truly following God? How pathetic!

The reason so many people 'fall away' is because they never 'fell in' in the first place.

Amen JaySaved :)

Belief is more than just an agreement to a list of facts. Its trust in Christ unto salvation.

Point is if a man is truly a believer then he will believe the rest of His life.

If somebody falls from the faith (starts living in sin) they were never a christian. (or more clearly "they never truly believed")

3 John 3:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.

1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever (unrepentantly practices) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Because Calvinists believe that God shows His irresistible grace to totally depraved people whom He has unconditionally elected before time, Calvinists have no choice but to believe that it is impossible for a genuinely-saved person to forfeit his salvation. This is what the Calvinistic doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is all about. True saints will persevere in faith, and if they don’t, they were never truly saved in the first place, according to Calvinists.

Piper certainly holds this view. Amazingly, however, at the start of his chapter about Perseverance of the Saints, he states,

Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end (p. 23, prgh. 2).

Piper is correct in observing that there are many warnings in Scripture addressed to those who do not hold fast to Christ. Indeed, such people will be lost in the end. It is astounding, however, that Piper cannot see the glaring contradiction in what he says. Clearly, if a person is genuinely saved due to God’s unconditional election and irresistible grace, then there is no possibility of him losing his salvation. Thus, if election is unconditional, glorification must of necessity also be unconditional. If one is elected, he must by definition eventually be glorified. This very truth Piper has already declared one paragraph earlier:

It follows from what was just said [Piper’s interpretation of Romans 8:28-33] that the people of God will persevere. The foreknown are predestined, the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified. No one is lost from this group. To belong to this people is to be eternally secure (p. 23, prgh. 1).

How can it be true that the elect will certainly be glorified and the elect may not be glorified? Both can’t be true, yet Piper says otherwise! He blatantly contradicts himself in the space of a few sentences.

Moreover, logic dictates that if people are saved due to God’s unconditional election and irresistible grace, there is no sound reason for Scripture to warn anyone to persevere in faith. Those who are genuinely saved will persevere in faith and cannot do otherwise. They need no encouragement, because their salvation has been guaranteed since the foundation of the world. Likewise, those who are only phony believers have no reason to be encouraged, because their faith isn’t genuine, and it is certain that they won’t persevere, because their damnation has been guaranteed since the foundation of the world. To encourage such a person is to encourage him to remain deceived a little longer, until he discovers the inevitable—he has been predestined to be damned, and there is no reason for him to attempt to persevere in faith. His faith is bogus.

That is why it is virtually impossible for a consistent Calvinist to have absolute certainty of his salvation until his final breath, because he must always live with the fear that his faith may prove to be bogus if he doesn’t persevere in faith until death.

Again, if unconditional election is true, conditional glorification cannot be true. If conditional glorification is true (which it is), unconditional election cannot be true. Yet Piper repeatedly maintains that both are true. For example, he writes:

We do not breathe easy after a person has prayed to receive Christ, as though we can be assured from our perspective that they are now beyond the reach of the evil one. There is a fight of faith to be fought. We must endure to the end in faith if we are to be saved (p. 23, prgh. 4).

Here Piper says that a person who has prayed to receive Christ is not “beyond the reach of the evil one.” But if that person is one of those who was predestined to be damned, he has not been truly saved in the first place and his prayer was ineffectual. He never escaped Satan’s clutches. If, on the other hand, the person is among those predestined to be saved, then there is no possibility of his forfeiting his salvation. And if he, being elected, is not beyond the reach of the evil one (as Piper says), then Satan is more powerful than God, and Piper has voided God’s sovereignty, something no good Calvinist should do!

A few paragraphs later, Piper reverses his position again, writing,

God’s elect cannot be lost. This is why we believe in eternal security—namely, the eternal security of the elect. The implication is that God will so work that those whom he has chosen for eternal salvation will be enabled by him to persevere in faith to the end…” (p. 24, prgh. 7).

But if this is true, why are there so many scriptural warnings to believers against falling away from the faith, many of which Piper lists (e.g., Mark 13:13; 1 Cor. 15:1-2; Col. 1:21-23; 2 Tim. 2:11-12; Rev. 2:7, 10-11, 17, 25-26; 3:5, 11-12, 21)? If true believers can’t fall away, why would Jesus and Paul warn them about what can’t possibly happen?

The truth is, Scripture repeatedly warns believers against falling away because it is possible for genuine believers to fall away. For the same reason, Scripture also repeatedly admonishes believers to continue in the faith. All of such scriptures stand in direct contradiction to the Calvinistic doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints.

Piper then quotes from Jesus’ words in John 10:26-30 to prove that the elect cannot be lost. This passage of Scripture is the favorite of just about all who believe in eternal security, whether they are Calvinists or not:

But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

This passage of scripture, of course, is not the only passage of scripture in the Bible. It highlights the faithfulness of Christ, but notice that it also mentions some characteristics of those to whom Christ is faithful: Jesus’ sheep hear His voice and follow Him. They are the ones who shall never perish or be snatched out of His hand. This fits perfectly with the testimony of the rest of Scripture. As long as we continue in faith, as evidenced by our following Jesus, we need not fear that we will perish or be snatched out of our Father’s hand. If we stop following Jesus, we are no longer His sheep.

This scripture, like so many others, teaches a conditional eternal security. That is, we must continue to follow Jesus to ultimately be saved. Yet Piper uses this scripture to buttress his view of unconditional eternal security which stands in direct contradiction to his view of conditional glorification, which is nothing less than conditional eternal security! Piper believes in both unconditional eternal security (based on the doctrine of unconditional election) and conditional eternal security (based on the doctrine of conditional glorification). He is a very inconsistent Calvinist.

In this same chapter, Piper reverses his position again. Writing about believers who fall away, Piper says,

The fact that such a thing is possible [believers falling away] is precisely why the ministry of the Word in every local church must contain many admonitions to the church members to persevere in faith and not be entangled in those things which could possibly strangle them and result in their condemnation (p. 25, prgh. 3, emphasis added).

I couldn’t agree more with that statement. But Piper again contradicts himself. After telling us that it is impossible for the elect to be lost, Piper now tells us that we must admonish church members to persevere in faith and not be entangled in those things which could result in their condemnation! But do these church members have a genuine faith? If yes, then they are among the elect and it is impossible for them to be ultimately condemned (according to Piper and all other Calvinists)! They need no admonishing. Or, is their faith bogus? If yes, then they are currently not saved and need no admonishing to continue in a faith that isn’t genuine. They need to be saved, but will only be if they, according to Calvinism, have been unconditionally elected. And if they are not among those elect, then it is impossible for them not to be condemned (according to Piper and all other Calvinists)! We deceive such people even more if we encourage them to persevere in faith, because we give them a false hope that they are currently genuinely saved!

In summary, we see that the Calvinistic doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is, for the Calvinist, an absolutely necessary doctrine, even though it is unbiblical. If God bestows His irresistible grace on totally depraved people whom He has unconditionally elected, then it would have to be, of necessity, impossible for any of those people to forfeit the salvation that God gave them against their totally depraved wills. They are, of course, robots from start to finish. And it can be no other way in Calvin’s system of theology.

However, if people possess wills that are free enough to repent and believe under God’s prevenient grace, and if God has chosen from the foundation of the world to give eternal life to all who will believe, then it stands to reason that it is possible for regenerate people to fall away from faith by the exercise of their free wills, just as the New Testament repeatedly teaches. Because conditional glorification is indeed true, then unconditional election cannot be true. If there is an election (which there is) then it must be conditional. Thus the Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional Election falls with the Calvinistic doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints.

written by David Servant

no relation...tjservant is my screen name

Election is unconditional, but glorification is not. There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end (p. 23, prgh. 2).

As for Piper's belief that someone can be elected and not glorified, I disagree. If you want to discuss that, take it up with someone who agrees with him.

Moreover, logic dictates that if people are saved due to God’s unconditional election and irresistible grace, there is no sound reason for Scripture to warn anyone to persevere in faith.

The admonitions in scripture to persevere are their to remind all who profess faith in Jesus to persevere. Simple as that. The fact is, many who claim to have faith, actually do not. Those who do not persevere are proven to be false believers. The scripture constantly warns us to persevere so that we will not have a false sense of security in our 'faith without works'.

By the way, to all who do not hold to a Calvinistic theology, what does predestination mean as recorded in the bible?

The fact is, many who claim to have faith, actually do not.

I understand that people have alot to say about this subject but mabey you could respond to the verses posted instead... !Espcially! these :) I'd appreciate it.

3 John 3:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.

1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever (unrepentantly practices) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

I just posted part of that article for people to read. I have no desire to get involved (any more than I am) in an OSAS discussion.

There are thousands of books that are for it

There are thousands of books that are against it

There are thousands of preachers for it

There are thousands of preachers against it.

We will all appear before "The Judgment Seat of Christ"

I just want to get an answer to this question:

To all those who are not Calvinists and do not believe in Eternal Security/Once Saved Always Saved/Perseverance of the Saints, what does the bible mean when it talks about Predestination.

remeber Judas.... that should be enough to see how bankrupt the "once saved always saved" notion is

Judas was never a Christian. Jesus made that clear throughout his ministry.

Hi...

I posted this in the last Once Saved/Always Saved/Predestination/Eternal Security thread.

I typically try to avoid such discussions about doctrinal issues that are so hotly debated. There are scriptures on both sides that seem to indicate the validity of each point. We must remember that pure "truth" does not contridict itself.

Have you ever met a person who walked wholeheartedly with the Lord and then fell into a life of sin? Have [u]YOU[/u] ever been tempted to fall into a life of certain sin?

What is the end result for an individual who departs the faith and enters back into the world?
Was that person ever truly saved?
What is the spiritual condition of such an individual?

To claim that a person can live in sin while walking [u]with[/u] Christ is dishonest to the faith. They CANNOT walk together if this person is living in sin. I don't believe that an individual can even HONESTLY PRAY while living in blatant, unrepentent sin. An individual (including a pastor) may pretend that all is well, while they are actually dying on the inside.

Regardless of whether we want to use/justify the term "once saved/always saved" or "once justified/always justified", the Word of God is expressly clear about the end of an individual living in sin. If you are living in blatant, unrepentent sin -- you shall [u]not[/u] inherit the Kingdom of God. To say otherwise is to insult the Spirit of Grace (Hebrews 10:29). The Word of God is also clear that it is indeed possible to depart the faith and run ahead of the Lord (II John 1:8-9).

What is the bottom line in such a discussion?
--- Don't die in sin.

:-)

Amen brother

As long as we keep to that- WE'D ALL GET TO GLORY!

Keeping in line with 2 Corinthians 13:5 and self-examination.