Another Katz Like Speaker?

I was wondering if anybody out there could identify a speaker on SI that has the authority, depth, and edge of Art Katz? I have tried listening to some other speakers recently, and I must say that while they seem like good men, they seem to lack.

Any suggestions?

Not the same as Art Katz but I do recommend one minister of God who has soberly awakened me beyond measure. He is like the voice that wakes up the ten virgins in Jesus' parable calling out, 'The Bride Groom is coming, get your oil in your lamps, get them trimmed and bright, for he is comming to meet you!'. His name is Paul Washer I recommend watching the sermon video that says,- Shocking youth message, stunns hearers.' All of his messages are full of fire. He wore out his hips as a missionary preaching in the Andes Mountains. He also preached in Eastern Europe and Africa. Keith Daniel is another one you should listen to as well. Paul has the same edge, just a different blade. Just like how every star differs in glory, some blaze red, some blue, some white, some brighter, bigger and hotter, but all are magnificent.

Would echo Sparks in this regard. It takes some concentration to apprehend the depths he plumbs.

But knowing KJ from his contributions, I think I am hearing you brother from where you are coming from.

Certainly Sparks wouldn't have escaped your attention knowing Art's appealing to him on ocassion and of course your own tenure here. One that did come to mind;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?op=&cid=129] Devern Fromke[/url]

A different edge as others have mentioned. Guess it depends brother, I wonder if the seemingly simple might be too easily over looked? ... The word [i]challenged[/i] has been a reoccuring theme of late.

Would echo Sparks in this regard. It takes some concentration to apprehend the depths he plumbs.

But knowing KJ from his contributions, I think I am hearing you brother from where you are coming from.

Indeed, I am aware of Sparks from my exposure to folks like Watchman Nee, Chip Brogden, and Art Katz. I know some have celebrated him much, but I can't say I've ever read or heard very much from him that has impressed me. Perhaps the things I have been exposed to in regard to him were not very good representations of his overall teaching. Somebody sent me a box full of his books once for free, and I read one book and scanned through another. I think I read his book on prophetic ministry, and thought it horrible.

So, if anybody could point out must hear messages from Sparks, I'm willing to give him a fair shake.

Devern Fromke

I've never heard of him. I'll give him a gander. Do you know anything about him? Any recommended messages that stick out?

I've listened to all the preachers mentioned and they are excellent but I do not believe that there are any that have the prophetic "message" about Israel that Art has been given by God. Others will probably disagree but we all have our own opinions!

Yeah, I don't think you'll find anybody else that really has a prophetic message about Israel and the Church like Katz has. His proclamation of this message is rather unique, but hopefully, will start sounding from other voices.

Reggie Kelly is probably the closest; he has writings on the benisrael.org website but I do not know if he has ever stood and ministered the word. I would definitely listen to him! But I believe he is the only one closest to Art that we will find today.

Yeah. I've always wondered about brother Reggie. I've read his messages on the web site, and have listened to his contributions to the Ben Israel prophetical school. But he doesn't seem to have any taped messages. I don't think he desires to have any sort of itinerant speaking ministry like Katz though. But I dunno, at the same time he has done a TON of traveling like Katz has, as if he had plans to do such. When Katz finally goes onto glory though, he seems as if he would succeed Katz as the voice of the Ben Israel community. But even then, he seems much more at home as a teacher than as a prophetic voice, though, hardly without a truly prophetic perspective on things. He seems much more the resident Ben Israel theologian.

Hi KJ,

From Sparks,

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=47] Blessedness of the Unoffended[/url]

And if you don't want those old Sparks books my address is ... ;-) Seriously, hope you would give them another look some day. "The Stewardship of the Mystery" was one of those that took me literally years to go through ... Every time I picked it up I just kind of glazed over, would read a bit but my head was somewhere else entirely. Last year I picked it up again and was just amazed ... wondering if this might be something of a possibility with yourself? A different season ... Appreciate your honesty regardless brother.

Devern Fromke ...

Here is a sampling, in his own words, tucked into this thread about midway down;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11795&forum=34#92070]A Witness and a Testimony ~ Sparks & Tozer[/url]

And another or two;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10984&forum=34#85459]DeVern Fromke ~ Our Presentation, Then Our Unveiling[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=9314&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Running the Race to Reach the Goal - DeVern Fromke[/url]

For audio sermons ...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1510]David - Failure and Effectiveness[/url]

[b]Description[/b]: [i]This is a highly recommended series by Devern Fromke for all those seeking a closer walk with God. In this sermon Mr. Fromke speaks concerning the order that flows out of a Christian walk rooted in the right priorities. Where things are in proper priority, things function efficiently and effectively. He uses the 1 Chronicles 13-15 accounts of Davis attempts to bring the Ark up to Jerusalem to illustrate the due order of seeking God's kingdom first.[/i]

It's part of a series as mentioned, just look under the main heading there.

Here is a bit more information on him;

[i] DeVern Fromke has traveled for more than 50 years as a teacher at large in the body of Christ. Along with his wife, Ruth, he has minstereed in Brazil, New Zealand, Europe and Japan, sharing this God-centered message. After graduating from Seattle Pacific University he worked with Youth for Christ, then taught in several high schools and served as headmaster of Heritage Christian. Now president of Sure Foundation Publishers, and Ministry of Life literature outreach, he continures his writing from his home in Indianapolis.[/i]

http://www.surefoundation.com/

I believe he was also a frequent contributer to the Keswick conventions.

Going through this exercise here also reminded me of another recommendation;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16662&forum=36#129536]spritual authority[/url]

See the links to Stephen Kaung.

Happy searching brother

You can get free T Austin Sparks books from austin-sparks.net btw.

You can get free T Austin Sparks books from austin-sparks.net btw.

Oh you bet ... A great deal of his writings are up as well. I would have to purchase anything in book form.

I must say Jimmy, I am surprised at your apparent induction into the Art Katz "fan club". ;-) I always had the impression that you weren't all that impressed by him.

Two names come to mind, that I am surprised haven't been mentioned. Tozer and Reidhead. Both these guys emphasised much of the deeper life, and "perfection" teachings that Art ascribes to (particular emphasis in the first chapter of Apostolic Foundations). Albeit, they didn't give the kind of emphasis to Israel that he did, there is a definite kindred.

Regarding the prophetic aspect of Israel, perhaps considering [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=539]J Jacob Prasch[/url]. Many who know Art, over here in Australia also associate with Prasch. Again, not that they would be in total agreement, but they do share views of Israel.

Another one from left field, regarding Israel, and the Time of Jacob's Trouble, is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=549]Chuck Missler[/url], who certainly associates the Tribulation with the Time of Jacob's Trouble. One notable difference is that Missler believes in a pretrib rapture, when Art doesn't, however the crux of the data is similar.

I doubt that anyone will ever truly fill the shoes of this stately man of God. In many ways, however, Art is the voice of obscurity. He serves the body of Christ, in that he testifies to the existence of men like himself. I have met a few men who are of like caliber, and yet they almost seem to shun the spotlight.

I for one will be forever indebted to this man's sincerity and integrity before God. Like many, I began listening to him to find fault, only to find that the fault was mine. Oh, that more could tolerate such extremity, and benefit from the revelation that comes from one who has truly been set apart for God alone, a living embodiment of the words, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your path."

Oh, that more could tolerate such extremity,

Good stuff here Aaron ... In hindsight those that were put up may well be off the beaten path as regards ... Oh I hate to use this word, style, but perhaps to my mind it is this aspect that always gripped me about Art;

I for one will be forever indebted to this man's sincerity and integrity before God.

It is that and his pressing the issue of honesty that I would be most grateful for. Towards the matters of Israel and eschatology I still float along the camp of 'perhaps' and would lean much more towards ... upheaval surely than "rapture". That is neither here nor there. It is wonderfully peculiar that it seems to make such little difference in some ways, not towards the topic itself, but towards character, brain sweat, hard thinking ... indeed [i]extremity[/i].

The knots in the pit of the stomach were some of the first recognizable traits that found likeheartedness over the cavalier ways and means of the world of Christendom, "Plastic" as Art would put it. A whole vocabulary he has given expression with that is quite foreign to most ears. The phrases and sentiments have well etched themselves and come up in lines of thought all the time ...

[i]... full of data and facts[/i]

I listened to many of his sermons and I was equally stunned by his prophetic vigor. I have not yet come across anyone like him to present the subject of Israel and the church in such depth. I am German and his message challenged me to the core. Although I was born in 1961 and had nothing to do with the holocaust I discovered that there was a deep rooted residue of shame about this in me and my nation in particular. Art opened up a much deeper understanding of God's redemption for Israel and the gentile church in times to come.
I actually got in touch with Art last year and drove him around on his last UK trip.

We must hear people like him and I am sure God will rise up people like him - if they are willing to pay the price. I also want to take the opportunity to give a word of warning. Inasmuch we like to listen to these rugged prophets, we come under greater obligation to follow Jesus closer than ever. The Jews and Gentiles loved to listen to John the Baptist and many were fascinated by his cutting message - including Herod. Those who followed Lamb of God were fewer. Sermonindex is a Goldmine of godly teaching - but if the message does not change us I can imagine a scenario on judgement day as a paraphrase of Mat 12:41-42

Quote:

People from ages past who did not own a bible and could not read yet rendered their hearts at God's word will stand up in judgement against us saying: "You heard some of the best prophets and teachers on your Mp3 players. Where is your fruit?"

By the way, Art is very sick at the moment, please pray for him.

More on www.Benisrael.org

Narrowpath

I just listened to Art Katz's message "The Spirit of Truth" and was absolutely amazed at the "accountability to Truth" that I was faced with as I listened....
Actually I am unable to aptly describe how his preaching affected me.
I had not ever heard "of him" let alone listened to any of his messages, until just now.
I know it had to be Spirit inspired that I click on to his page.
I thot I had just "randomly" found his name when I was looking for someone "new" to listen to. (nothing random, in that search...for sure).

I could soooo identify with the agony of spirit when he visited churches, and the words were true but the spirit was not.

His description of the Dove: being a single focused vision bird; very particular and precise at where it will perch...made a powerful picture of The Truth of the Holy Spirit.

I found myself "groaning" from time to time over points he made as to the "performances" and "manipulation" in our lives with people as well as in the church today.

His honesty regarding his weakness and vulnerability as a man causes the Glory of the Spirit of God to be alll the more evident in this man's ministry.

So, if there are others with this same power, and ability to hold me so "minutely accountable" in the sincerety and depth of my Walk with Christ, than I want to know who they are too.

Sermonindex is a Goldmine of godly teaching - but if the message does not change us

Absolutely correct, I would add [i]daily[/i]. Well stated.

Added edit;

Talkn2u,

You might give this a listen as well;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3278]And They Crucified Him[/url]

[b]Description:[/b] Empty entertainment/worship sung by pretty people -Doctrinally-correct sermons devoid of power -Sunday-only Christian lives barely distiguishable from the world All these and many more ills are symptoms of a disease Art clearly identifies in this message. It's such a fundamental thing, our understanding of the cross. It's an indictment of our lives and the current impetence of the church. In the final analysis, unless we know ‘Christ and Him crucified,’ our knowledge of God will be false.

I must say Jimmy, I am surprised at your apparent induction into the Art Katz "fan club".

Yeah. I've been a pretty big "fan" of Art Katz since about July of last year. I didn't much care for him the first time or two I heard him. He speaks with a sobriety and character that few do.

I have met a few men who are of like caliber, and yet they almost seem to shun the spotlight.

Such men don't need to be in a spotlight, nor do they seek after it. They don't need to. For their entire lives are a sermon. As one fellow teacher told Katz when he still was a public school teacher, "Katz, even when you are silent you are an accusation!"

Like many, I began listening to him to find fault, only to find that the fault was mine.

Indeed, I remember when I listened to a sermon and realized underneath I had some anti-semetic attitudes that in part influenced my interpretation of Scripture and understanding of world events. I can remember in past times secretly having a level of glee when things would heat up in the mid-east and Israel would suffer a blow of some sort. "HA! They got what was coming to them!" I then realized that such an attitude was contrary to the attitude of mercy that we will be required to show the Jews in the last days. I realized then I would be unable to show a Jew in flight the mercy he will need in those days.

Towards the matters of Israel and eschatology I still float along the camp of 'perhaps' and would lean much more towards ... upheaval surely than "rapture".

I would encourage you to really search the Scriptures to see if these things are true. One thing I've noticed here on SI is that many people like Katz, but are unsure about his eschatology, especially in relation to Israel. And initially, I wasn't so sure myself. However, over the past 6 months or so, I have intensely been studying the Scriptures and comparing them to what Katz says. And I must say, I believe what he says is very firmly grounded in the Scriptures.

And I think until one sets about to truly wrestle with these issues, one will never truly grasp what Katz is saying. For Katz's message that he has been preaching since the early 80's has been eschatologically soaked in things regarding Israel and God's dealings with them. As Katz says time and time again, these nuts and bolts type things ultimately give us a revelation of God's character, so that we can see God as He indeed is. God as God.

However with all this said, should one study Katz's eschatological message through and through, and sees that it fails to line up with Scripture, then I think one should largely abandon his sermons altogether. For his sermons are so intimately woven with his eschatology that they cannot truly be understood apart from it. And if he is wrong in these things, then you are dealing with some sermons that don't have very sure foundations.

Of course, I can see where this might put some long term SI members in a limbo like state. Especially if you are a big David Wilkerson fan, who holds some theological persuasions opposite that of Katz, with both claiming prophetic revelation for both stances. E.g. The timing of the rapture (Wilkerson being pre-trib, Katz being post-trib). Both can't be right, and somebody has missed it in no small way. So, deciding where one stands on these things is important.

However with all this said, should one study Katz's eschatological message through and through, and sees that it fails to line up with Scripture, then I think one should largely abandon his sermons altogether.

I don't see that as necessarily so brother. The quote that is attached as the signature of late at bottom I would appeal to, not necessarily the intelligence capacity ;-)

I do hear what you are saying however and the intertwining is unmistakable. My penchant as you would likely gather is towards matters of the heart, "the what's back of it" aspects of our spiritual and fleshly wrestlings, the meaning behind things, definitions ... Of course all that is inherent in something like this and I am not attempting to draw a line of demarcation.

You are right in that I have not given a thorough study of all this and my 'perhaps' is not to mean anything other than that. At the same time I do not know that I need to hold down to a particular outworking that though determined before the foundation of the world is still largely held at a distance from the vast majority of saints. Of course somebody is ultimately wrong, I just don't feel a particular compulsion to have to know who that is.

Hope that doesn't sound dismissive as it is not, nor is it a mere wiggle or a compromise, for now it is just to be ready come what may. I certainly have an interest, just not the particular season of ... attention? Maybe that's it.

crsschk...great recommendation!
I listened to "And They Crucified Him"
Oh my!!! Art's depiction of what one goes thru during death by crucifixion was painful to hear..yet, THAT is the CROSS that needs to be spoken of when we speak of Jesus...

His heart, His attitude, His Spirit, His Love, His Willing Obedient Sacrifice that He went thru is every bit as Powerful, as is the Horror, devastation, ugliness, and satanic trap as is the Sin Jesus died to overcome and bring us Victory from!

It took sooo great a sacrifice to conquer so great a horror...
Oh how we need to see sin for what it is...And I believe that if we would view sin in its true sense, we would not treat the Name of Jesus so lightly.
That is why my heart cries for the Church to wake up and speak Truth!!!!
Where is the message that brings the Conviction of our hearts that causes us to repent????

I am going to listen to that sermon again...thank you!!!