Veils

Just some thoughts on this subject. I wondered whether to put them here or in the "meditation" section:

Hebrews 6:19[i][b][color=000099] ...This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus...[/color][/b][/i]

Hebrews 10:19f [i][b][color=000099]Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us pdraw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith...[/color][/b][/i]

We have access in Christ "within the veil", as it says in Hebrews, but I suddenly realised, during conversation with a friend, that we have "veils of our own that sometimes we won't, or maybe can't, let go of - unless the Lord deals with them. "Veils" of our own making, false coverings...

Is that why, in the Song of Solomon chapter 5, (taking it as an allegory of the Lord's relationship with us), the girl had her veil taken from her by the watchmen when she sought her Beloved (after being unwilling to let Him in)?

I always saw this taking away of the veil (or mantle) as a punishment, but now wonder if it represents the Lord's [i]mercy[/i] to us!

In that culture, taking away a woman's mantle was to shame her - the greatest shame and insult - exposing her before the world. But to at last find her Beloved, and come into the relatioship with Him that He desired, it maybe was necessary that she be stripped of this "false" covering.

For the bride before her bridegroom, after they are married, removes her veil. And a wife can be naked before her husband, but before no other man - yet not ashamed.

Earlier in chapter 5 she had even hidden behind her own doors and bars, and only after He withdrew did she find the willingness, indeed desperation, to open the door and seek Him.

Can we truly come within [i]His[/i] veil until we let go of our own?

Is this why we often seem to have difficulty with haveing a sense of His Presence in our lives, or in "getting through" in prayer?

Moses put a veil over his face when he'd been talking to the Lord. Was that to cover the glory on his face, or to cover the fading of it?

But we don't need to be covered in His presence (2Corinthians 3:7-4:6))

3:18 [i][b][color=000099]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, care being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color][/b][/i]

4:6 [i][b][color=000099]For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [/color][/b][/i]

Ruth took off her mantle when Boaz accepted her plea to come under his covering (ie to marry her). And instead of a covering, hiding her - as it were - from him, it became a container for a gift of grain - as much as she could carry (Ruth 3:9-17)

Zechariah 3 is an amazing passage too. The [i]high priest[/i] in filthy clothes, [i]in the presence of the Lord![/i] It could be taken as Jesus who "became sin, who knew no sin, that we might become the righteousness of God in him". Even his name, Joshua, is the same as Jesus'.

Or it could be taken as a picture of the "covering" of the Lord on the believer.

But there was a time in this vision when they took away the filthy clothes and he was naked!

Are we hiding behind our gates and bars, hiding from Him? Am I???

Are we like Adam who put on a false covering of his own making, and hid because he knew he was naked? Or like Israel at Sinai, when they pleaded that God wouldn't talk with them any more because they were afraid - even with the Veil in place.

We have to be made naked before the Lord - even though Satan accuse and seek to destroy us - before we can come within His veil, and be reclothed with the garments of salvation, the robes of righteousness!

All glory to HIM!

Jeannette

Interesting questions here. I would like to comment.

While the glory may have been fading, it was refreshed every time Moses spent time with the Lord, with his face unveiled.

Exodus 34:29 - 35
Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony [i]were[/i] in Moses' hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

Then Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses talked with them. Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them as commandments all that the LORD had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.

But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.

This is exactly the point Paul is making in the 2 Corinthian 3 verses, where there is no mirror in some translations - making the parallel much clearer. Derby puts it this way:

18 But *we* all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by [i]the[/i] Lord [i]the[/i] Spirit.

And Tyndale put it that we are looking at the Lord, with 'His face open to us'. In both these (mirrorless) parallels, the point is that [i]we[/i] can look on His face directly, as Moses looked on God's.

Before you say Moses did not 'see' God, take a look at this, and note that the blood had just been shed and the ceremonies performed with it.

Exodus 24
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put [i]it[/i] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [i]it[/i] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 [b]And they saw the God of Israel[/b]: and [i]there was[/i] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [i]his[/i] clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also [b]they saw God, and did eat and drink[/b].

God did not withdraw Himself from such a clear view, until after Aaron had made the golden calf. Israel continued to worship it, despite every attempt on God's part to turn their hearts towards Himself, although there have always been those who hear Him (prophets, kings and priests) and some turned to Christ. And yet, God did not make Himself [i]completely[/i] invisible, still appearing in the fiery cloudy pillar many times.

While the glory of the Old Covenant was fading and temporary (we know), it is easy [i]not[/i] to appreciate just what an improvement it represented in government, compared with the outright slavery the Hebrews had endured.

I think we all experience a growing distance in our fellowship with God, if we don't treasure being in His presence above all other treasures.

The other thought I have, regarding the removal of our 'veils' is here:

Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [i]did[/i] from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
12 [b]For the word of God [i]is[/i] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart[/b].
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but [u]all things[/u] [i]are[/i] [u]naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we[/u] [i]must give[/i] [u]account[/u].
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [i]our[/i] confession.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all [i]points[/i] tempted as [i]we are, yet[/i] without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Just as you said, Jeanette, it is His mercy which speaks to us by His piercing word, bringing Him closer, or, urging us to be open with Him.

(Jeanette, may I say what a pleasure it is to have a one-word title to a thread! ;-) )

ADisciple said]

...About the mirror. I am not much of a Greek scholar, but the word translated "beholding as in a glass" in the KJV is in the Greek one word: "katoptrizomenoi" which, I understand, means reflecting, mirroring. "Katoptron" is, according to Thayer, a mirror.

But as I see it, the thought is not that we look into a mirror, and thereby see the glory of the Lord indirectly, or second hand. [b]Rather, the glory of the Lord is itself the mirror in which we look with open face, and seeing Him, see ourselves[/b]. As we really are! (Now, THAT is quite a long-thinking kind of thought. Seeing Him in the mirror of New Covenant glory, we are transfigured into the same image!)

I would like to tweak the 'and ourselves' to suggest that what we are likely to see of ourselves initially, should drive us to our knees. But, while we do not fear to look at Him and His glory, it should be a transforming experience - despite what we find out about ourselves in the process.

1 Cor 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Thank you all your comments, although its nearly midnight so I can't comment just now.

There was only one reply for such a long time that I'd stopped following ithe thread, and its now nearly at the bottom of the page, so bumping it up, may have time for more tomorrow!

Thankyou, especially for the new thoughts and meditations - it seems to be turning into quite a huge subject! For example you could add the concept of "covering",in the sense of atonement, as in the "mercy seat" on the Ark - which really means "atonement cover".

Just one snippet to add from Songs 1:7, "turn aside" (KJV) means "is veiled". She could not be unveiled in the presence of others, even His friends, only before her Beloved.

Mmmm

Goodnight, God bless you all

Jeannette