Itching ears..

I agree with what you say. Even on this site there are a few posters who seem to be doing everything they can to prove the errancy and fallibility of the scriptures, yet they profess to be followers of Jesus. I get sick when I watch TBN. There are very few decent programs on TBN. Prosperity Preaching abounds all around us. This site is incredible. ThanksMatt

This is what I said in the other thread which I would like to quickly post in this one:It is a false Church full of false Christians that will round up for themselves false teachers to teach them false teachings. They must be men who do not know their bibles.Leonard Ravenhill: Why Revival Tarries, pg 86 "The conflict of the ages is upon us. This unbiblical distored thing called the church, that mixes with the world and dishonors its so-called Lord, has been found out for what it is, a fraud."

Thanks for starting the thread.One thing jumps to mind: it's true that many simply can't endure sound doctrine, one in particular is the Holiness doctrine. They have all manner of arguments (Scriptural and otherwise) to establish that Christians can't have true victory over (willful, known) sin in this life, and that a Christian can't "lose his salvation" (I'm still not comfortable with the term, I prefer "die spiritually," but it's the same thing). And the Devil's in there playing his usual game of exaggerating whatever anyone says. The Holiness people get the wrong idea about a hard-line Calvinist who believes in Perseverence of the Saints but also believes if someone doesn't "persevere" they were never a "saint." Everyone else tends to only hear "Christians don't sin," "I haven't sinned in 20 years," etc, and get the wrong idea because those statements mean something very different to the speaker and to the hearer. I think most of the misunderstanding is in the definition of the word "sin," which has been discussed at length somewhere around here.One of my favorite passages on this:1 Corinthians 69 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God."Be not deceived" ! Meaning (I believe) that this is an issue God knew some would be deceived on.

I don't know if I can say how much I love this site. You're right, TBN is rubbish for the most part. Thanks Lazarus for that Ravenhill quote. I think that sums it up.Keith, I don't know what you're trying to say at the end there....

Quote: "One thing jumps to mind: it's true that many simply can't endure sound doctrine, one in particular is the Holiness doctrine. They have all manner of arguments (Scriptural and otherwise) to establish that Christians can't have true victory over (willful, known) sin in this life,"With the doctrine of holiness in mind, 1 Cor 10:13 makes sense. "No temptation has overtaken ou except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."This scripture says that you can overcome all sin that tempts you. Some say "A Christian can not live without sin." Well I have a question for that christian. Which sin can't you live without? Which one? Or should I say 'which sin won't you live without?' Isn't it true that if you can say 'no' once then you can say 'no' twice?

Keith, I don't know what you're trying to say at the end there....I meant that Paul's prefacing the list with "Be not deceived" implies that there is something important being communicated that we could likely be deceived about.1 Corinthians 69 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God.Today there are a lot of people that have been deceived into thinking that certain fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners SHALL inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of deceived are in positions of great influence, here are some quotes to illustrate:"And so, sometimes out of ignorance or whatever it might be, they attempt to gratify and meet those needs the same way they did before they were saved, and therefore, you can't tell a carnal believer from a lost man. That is, you can't tell the cold from the carnal because the truth is, they're both acting the same way. Now, one of them is in Christ and one of them isn't. One of them is lost and the other one is in Christ. One of them knows about God and knows him in the experience of salvation; the other doesn't know him at all."Charles Stanley (Atlanta, GA: In Touch Ministries, 1982), Spiritual Vs. Carnal: Study in 1 Corinthians, audiotape #8, PQ092."As far as overt behavior is concerned, a carnal believer cannot be distinguished from an unbeliever.R.B. Thieme, Jr., The Prodigal Son (Houston, TX: R.B. Thieme, Jr. Bible Ministries, 1974), p. 8."Paul can only mean that these carnal Corinthians lived like unsaved men. That clarifies why the word carnal can label both unbelievers and believers, simply because the lifestyles of both are the same. The cure for the unbeliever's carnality is salvation; the cure for the believer's is to grow in the Lord (italics his)."Charles C. Ryrie, So Great Salvation (Victor Books, 1989), p. 62."Carnal To have the characteristics of an unsaved life either because one is an unbeliever or because though a believer, one is living like an unsaved person (italics his)."Ibid., p. 155."Let me clarify something because many, many in the family of God have no room in their theology for the carnal Christian, which creates tremendous confusion. If you don't understand the carnal Christian, you will begin to believe that you have fallen from grace. You will believe that you have been born again and then you will think later when you do these number of things, you have not been born again."Chuck Swindoll, Clearing the Hurdle of Carnality: Selections from 1 Corinthians, audiotape CHH 5-A.I know this is the third time I've quoted this Scripture in this thread, but I want to drill it in:1 Corinthians 69 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God.The above quotes from the contemporary authors came from a tract a friend gave me, the next paragraph is a paraphrase of the tract's closing argument, based on the above Scripture.First, Paul states in question form that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God, then tells us in the next verse how to identify someone who is unrighteous from their behavior. The sexually immoral, drunkards and the greedy, among others, are included in this group and will, therefore, be excluded from the kingdom, unless they turn from their sins. No exception is made for one who previously believed on Christ. This is the true grace teaching, according to Scripture.Some more Scriptures, without comments because it's God's Word that matters, not mine (that won't stop me from liberal use of bolding, though) :Luke 6:46"And why call ye Me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not the things which I say?Luke 1326 then shall ye begin to say, `We have eaten and drunk in Thy presence, and Thou hast taught in our streets.'27 But He shall say, `I tell you, I know you not from whence ye are. Depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity.'28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.Matthew 713 "Enter ye in at the strait gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat.14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?17 Even so, every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.20 Therefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven.22 Many will say to Me in that Day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?'23 And then will I profess unto them, `I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'Ezekiel 320 Again, when a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die. Because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."Ezekiel 1820 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed and keep all My statutes and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live: he shall not die.22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him. In his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23 "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die, saith the Lord GOD, and not that he should return from his ways and live?24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.James 519 Brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him, 20 let him know that he who converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. 2 Peter 21 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evilly spoken of.3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you -- they whose judgment now for a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not....14 having eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin, beguiling unstable souls; their hearts they have exercised with covetous practices; accursed children!15 They have forsaken the right way and have gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness,...18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh and through much wantonness those who had clean escaped from those who live in error.19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption; for by whom a man is overcome, by the same is he brought into bondage.20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they had known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it has happened unto them according to the true proverb: "The dog turns to his own vomit again," and, "the sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire."James 114 But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. ...27 Pure religion, undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.Jude3 Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.4 For there are certain men who have crept in unawares, who were foreordained of old for this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Keith, Thanks for clarifying. Brother,that was crystal clear:I can feel the fire and smell the smoke.I hadn't thought of that verse in Ezekiel for some time. That really makes me think. Thanks again. :-o

The love of the truth will deliver those who obey. Again, I submit another thought of Art Katz, the book, True Fellowship: To Him Be The Glory In The Church:"The Love of the Truth The issue of being saved from deception is the issue of the Cross. It is the issue of our willingness to be ruthless with regard to ourselves, bearing the suffering of it when God makes the issue clear. If we are escapist, running from confrontation, rationalizing and justifying our conduct and finding a way to explain it that gratifies us and saves us from the awareness of sin as sin, then we are to that degree candidates for deception. The love of the truth is the only thing that saves us from deception. But that love of the truth is not a love for something technically correct; nor is it a love for correct principles. Love of the truth is something different and can only be understood as God sees and understands it. The most acute expression of that truth is Christ and Him crucified. The fellowship or individual, who moves away from the Cross, and allows the Cross only to be a ceremonial and architectural decoration, makes itself or himself a candidate for deception. If we are not living a cruciform life, and if we are not willing for the suffering of the Cross, but instead want the blessing of it, then we are also candidates for deception. That deception will likely come from very God Himself, who will give lying delusions to those who have rejected the love of the truth. Mere tolerance for the truth or even respect for the truth is not enough. Only a love for the truth keeps us from deception. Truth is painful, especially the truth about ourselves. We have all kinds of ways to rationalize and justify our actions, because we simply do not want to see the truth about ourselves. We have got to be ruthless in this regard and apply the Cross, and bring to death that thing that God brings to us and allows us to see. The most intense expression of that pain and suffering is not from the opposition that comes to us from the unbelieving and unregenerate world, but from the very people who are the dearest and closest. If it came from the unregenerate we could bear it, but when it comes from someone in our own household, we begin to taste something of suffering in its most intensive forms. I believe that any suffering less intense than that cannot bring the deep work of chastening that God is after. God knows it, and those people who are opposing us are actually serving His purposes in the formation of our character as His sons and daughters. If we can understand this sanctifying depth of the work of God, by which even our brothers or our spouses seem to have become our enemies, or we toward them, it will save us from seeing them as enemies, and we will begin to see them in a new redemptive way and see that they themselves are suffering in the role they are required to play. We can, therefore, have a more redemptive and sympathetic view of a suffering that they must bear until the mystery itself is finally outworked. That puts us on a much more sanctified and saintly ground, otherwise they are looked upon as being ‘enemies of the faith’ or a ‘thorn in the flesh,’ when in reality, they are not. It is not so much the actual death that scares God’s people, as the fear of death. It is the prospect of suffering that intimidates us more than the suffering itself. How many of our rationales and justifications for keeping ourselves from intimate union with the children of God as a community of God’s people really stem from our fear of the exposure? We are afraid to be found out, afraid to fail before the eyes of others, afraid to suffer the humiliation, and therefore we gird ourselves about with every kind of justification in our thought, and even employ scriptures to keep us from this kind of ‘danger.’ God is the God of truth, and therefore, anything that is feigned, phony and postured, anything that is an affectation or a show, is a lie. God slew Ananias and Sapphira because they held back part of the sale proceeds and made the part that they gave to appear as the whole. It is a whole religious game of holding back from God and from each other, and we are making the part that we do give to appear as the whole. It is far better that we would suffer the knowing, and other’s knowing, our true condition than that we should live some kind of deceptive life before others and God. Every day disposes us to which path we are going to take in life. We can play it safe and live our lives secretly and privately, and be a little island in the midst of the crowd, or we can open ourselves. We can love the truth, seek the truth, and pursue the truth and suffer for the truth, or we can play it safely and conventionally and never be able to produce in others anything more than what we are. We can know the correct phrases and communicate them to others, or we can come increasingly into the abounding joy and glory of the Lord through suffering. Day by day we are making such choices."In ChristJeff