Does anyone have any knowlege on the Apostolic church. A local pastor that was a customer of mine at work has invited me to do some one on one mentoring with me, but I am not familure with their doctrine or movement. Well I have learned that they are penticostal, born out of the welsh revival. Any help would be great!
There are a lot of churches out there that go under the banner of being an "Apostolic Church." You are probably interacting with a pastor from a oneness-pentecostal church, which denies things such as the Trinity, and believes that speaking in tongues is the evidence of salvation, etc.
...which are obviously false doctrines. If this is what they are, stay away.
Krispy
I was raised in an Apostolic Church. I don't attend one now, but you will be hard pressed to find a denomination that is more devoted to personal holiness and vibrant worship. Say what you will, but they are people who truly love God.
believes that speaking in tongues is the evidence of salvation
They believe that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost, not salvation.
Their main divergence with mainstream Christianity is their view of the Godhead, which, in reality is not much different than the view of your average Church-goer who has not intensely studied theology.
EDIT: Not trying to campaign for them, just stating what I have known from experience. Just stick close to the Word, and seeking Jesus.
Hi
Ignitemysoul wrote:
Does anyone have any knowlege on the Apostolic church. A local pastor that was a customer of mine at work has invited me to do some one on one mentoring with me, but I am not familure with their doctrine or movement. Well I have learned that they are penticostal, born out of the welsh revival. Any help would be great!
You don't say what area you are from, or even what country, (never heard of Appleton!), so I don't know if the Apostolic churches in your area are at all like the ones here in Wales.
The Apostolic churches I know are very similar to other traditional Pentecostal denominations, such as AOG and Elim. Their beliefs are basically mainstream, no doctrinal errors such as has been mentioned.
Their main differences from other Pentecostal denominations seem to be in church organisation, and what they call the "apostolic vision". Apparently the founder(s) had a "revelation" of the ministries in Ephesians 4; that the church should have apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers etc. And especially that the apostle and prophet work very closely together in ministry.
At least that's my understanding of it. The local churches are organised on that basis. Each leader is designated by one of those ministries. Although anyone is usually permitted to prophesy in meetings, the designated prophet is expected to give directional guidance on important matters, through a prophetic word, and no-one is called into office unless the prophet calls him by name to that work. For example, if you knew that God was calling you as an evangelist, you probably wouldn't be allowed to have an evangelistic campaign unless you were an "official" evangelist.
At least I think that's how they operate.
They tend to be rather insular (rather like the Plymouth Brethren are, although with very different church organistaion and practice of course). Many members were born and brought up in the denomination and often seem to have little contact with other churches, because all the meeting and teaching they need is provided within the denomination.
I used to know quite a few Apostolics, and sometimes went to their meetings. An Apostolic Pastor I was friendly with, when in the Presbyterian church, gave me a book about their history. It kept going on about this "apostolic vision" and how it was superior to the way other churches did things. I got rather fed up with it.
When I returned it the pastor asked how I liked it. Trying to be tactful (I thought it was dreadful!) I said "It's a bit denominational". He looked so disappointed at even that mild criticism! He obviously thought the book would "convert" me to realising how wonderful and superior the Apostolic revelation was!
Blessings
Jeannette
King Jimmie is right on target.
I've been to their meetings (unknowingly cuz they like to hide the Jesus Only stuff and Baptism in His Name Only and Tongues necessary for Salvation as long as they can)
I made friends with some on line and they invited me to their forum to debate the Trinity.
Just to give you a taste of what the official Apostolic Forum/Beliefs are ....
http://godplace.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=3a158f5acb07d613691f8a57d2c38dae&topic=24194.0
(Sorry - I need to re-learn how to post URLs)
Nothing but sound doctrine should attract us to a group. The Mormons get slain in the "spirit" and are very loving too.
God doesn't take too kindly to the remaking of His Gospel/the 'way' to Salvation nor HIS Triune Nature changed.
Signs and wonders and "niceness" is not how a fellowship should be judged ... and even all the more in these days.
It sounds as if they're nothing like the Apostolics I know, though I have come across this "Jesus only" teaching - very much a fringe cult it seems.
GrannieAnnie wrote:
King Jimmie is right on target.I've been to their meetings (unknowingly cuz they like to hide the Jesus Only stuff and Baptism in His Name Only and Tongues necessary for Salvation as long as they can)
I made friends with some on line and they invited me to their forum to debate the Trinity.
Just to give you a taste of what the official Apostolic Forum/Beliefs are ....
http://godplace.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=3a158f5acb07d613691f8a57d2c38dae&topic=24194.0
(Sorry - I need to re-learn how to post URLs)
Nothing but sound doctrine should attract us to a group. The Mormons get slain in the "spirit" and are very loving too.
God doesn't take too kindly to the remaking of His Gospel/the 'way' to Salvation nor HIS Triune Nature changed.
Signs and wonders and "niceness" is not how a fellowship should be judged ... and even all the more in these days.
Unless they came out of the traditional, original Apostolics?
Jeannette
Here's a good source for more of their beliefs and where they got them from.
Yeah, I hate to agree with you on that word "cult", but I'm afraid it's a true "counterfeit". I don't like saying that because I love them. I got pretty close to those on that board for the short time I was there and the fellowship I was in until the Jesus Only part slipped out from their Pastor.
Hi Jeannette,
I am so sorry I am from Appleton, Wisconsin, USA. I found their web site actually www.atchurch.org Some of their many beliefs are:
WE BELIEVE... There is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4). He is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all living beings. He has revealed Himself to humanity as the Father (Creator), in the Son (Savior), and as the Holy Ghost (the indwelling Spirit).
WE BELIEVE... God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He is the Eternal One, the Creator of all things, and the Father of all humanity by creation. He is the First and the Last, and beside Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). There was no God formed before Him; neither shall be there any after Him (Isaiah 43:10).
WE BELIEVE... Jesus is the Son of God according to the flesh (Romans 1:3) and the very God Himself according to the Spirit (Matthew 1:23). Jesus is the Christ (Matthew 16:16); the Creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17); God with us (Matthew 1:23); God made flesh (John 1:1-14); God manifested in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16); He which was, which is, and which is to come, the Almighty (Revelation 1:8); the mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus Himself testified of His identity as God when He said, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:7-11) and "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).
WE BELIEVE... The Holy Ghost is not a third person in the Godhead, but rather the Spirit of God (the Creator), the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. The Holy Ghost comes to dwell in the hearts and lives of everyone who believes and obeys the Gospel, as the Comforter, Sustainer, and Keeper (John 14:16-26; Romans 8:9-11).
WE BELIEVE... Water baptism is an essential part of New Testament salvation and not merely a symbolic ritual. It is part of entering into the kingdom of God (God's church, the bride of Christ), and therefore, it is not merely a part of local church membership. (See John 3:5; Galatians 3:27).
WE BELIEVE... The baptism of the Holy Ghost is the birth of the Spirit (John 3:5). This spiritual baptism is necessary to put someone into the kingdom of God (God's church, the bride of Christ) and is evidenced by speaking in other tongues (other languages) as the Spirit of God give utterance.
It was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28-29) and Isaiah (Isaiah 28:11), foretold by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:11), purchased by the blood of Jesus, and promised by Him to His disciples (John 14:26; 15:16). The Holy Ghost was first poured out on the Day of Pentecost upon the Jews (Acts 2:1-4), then upon the Samaritans (Acts 8:17), and later upon the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-46; 19:6). "The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).
Interestingly I discovered a coworker of mine has attended their and now attends a different church but the doctrine is the same. Salvation is obtained by repentance followed by water baptism, the baptism of the holy spirit with tounges as evidence! This is really the first that I have heard of this. Not a real popular teaching around here at least.
They believe that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost, not salvation.
I thought Apostolic Oneness-Pentecostals believes that all born-again believers will be baptized in the Spirit at conversion, and thus, speak in tongues, thus, evidence of salvation. Perhaps I have confused them with somebody else.
I don't know if the Apostolic churches in your area are at all like the ones here in Wales.
Sadly, there are many churches with a wide variety of beliefs espousing to be apostolic. Such tends towards confusion when talking about these groups. I think if memory serves correct, this "apostolic" group you mention in Wales is of Scottish-Presbyterian origin from the 1800's. There were some individuals about that time that claimed to have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, divine healing, prophetic utterances, etc. After being merely charismatic for a while, they eventually stumbled across Ephesians 4:11-13, and rigidly organized themselves along these lines.
Thanks for posting this Ignite.
You can see how it starts out very Biblically, until the Holy Spirit part on.
The Three ARE "ONE GOD" and all of that much is true .... The "LORD" of the O.T. is still the same LORD we worship now in Christ. But they can't wrap their heads around The Three "are" One ... and even us Trinitarians need time to see that Jesus, as HE was called after being conceived is still the same GOD that was the Pillar of fire and Cloud and Glory over the Temple and all that Israel followed, etc..
The same God that spoke to Abraham and so on through-out. I think it's the most Awesome Reality of all. We just call HIM "the Son of God" ... but before conception, HE was Elohiym {plural/masc}.
We seem to lose something when we don't understand that HE became the Son of God 'at' conception. "THIS DAY have I BEGOTTEN thee."
He's the One God, Elohiym, that walked in the Garden with Adam. And One Fine Day He'll be that way again.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
GLORY !!!
was it ravenhill who said?
The evidence for being a apostolic church is apostolic success.
Hmmhmm, you know - back when Ravenhill said things like this, there wasn't as many misuses of that term as there is now.
Folks wanted a book of Acts type Church and that was all well and good ... but now, most of us don't even say "Apostolic" at all because it's not in anyway used in the proper sense anymore at all or with the same thoughts that Ravenhill or Keith Green and them were thinking back then.
The Catholics use that term. The Jesus-Only use it and now the new prophets/apostle movements use it. And I sure don't want to get into the big discussion on the latter - that's fer shur.
Although, I could post a link of what I think of it if someone wanted though. :-D
But in the meantime - I avoid anything using that term completely, Now.
No problems! You Americans tend to think the USA is the only country in the world, but I love y'all anyway! We Welsh merely think that Wales is the
Ignitemysoul wrote:
Hi Jeannette,I am so sorry I am from Appleton, Wisconsin, USA.
Cymru am Byth!!! (That's Welsh) :-P
That was a joke - honest...
I found their web site actually www.atchurch.org Some of their many beliefs are:WE BELIEVE... There is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4). He is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all living beings. He has revealed Himself to humanity as the Father (Creator), in the Son (Savior), and as the Holy Ghost (the indwelling Spirit).
WE BELIEVE... God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He is the Eternal One, the Creator of all things, and the Father of all humanity by creation. He is the First and the Last, and beside Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). There was no God formed before Him; neither shall be there any after Him (Isaiah 43:10).
WE BELIEVE... Jesus is the Son of God according to the flesh (Romans 1:3) and the very God Himself according to the Spirit (Matthew 1:23). Jesus is the Christ (Matthew 16:16); the Creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17); God with us (Matthew 1:23); God made flesh (John 1:1-14); God manifested in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16); He which was, which is, and which is to come, the Almighty (Revelation 1:8); the mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus Himself testified of His identity as God when He said, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:7-11) and "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).
WE BELIEVE... The Holy Ghost is not a third person in the Godhead, but rather the Spirit of God (the Creator), the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. The Holy Ghost comes to dwell in the hearts and lives of everyone who believes and obeys the Gospel, as the Comforter, Sustainer, and Keeper (John 14:16-26; Romans 8:9-11).
WE BELIEVE... Water baptism is an essential part of New Testament salvation and not merely a symbolic ritual. It is part of entering into the kingdom of God (God's church, the bride of Christ), and therefore, it is not merely a part of local church membership. (See John 3:5; Galatians 3:27).
WE BELIEVE... The baptism of the Holy Ghost is the birth of the Spirit (John 3:5). This spiritual baptism is necessary to put someone into the kingdom of God (God's church, the bride of Christ) and is evidenced by speaking in other tongues (other languages) as the Spirit of God give utterance.
It was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28-29) and Isaiah (Isaiah 28:11), foretold by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:11), purchased by the blood of Jesus, and promised by Him to His disciples (John 14:26; 15:16). The Holy Ghost was first poured out on the Day of Pentecost upon the Jews (Acts 2:1-4), then upon the Samaritans (Acts 8:17), and later upon the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-46; 19:6). "The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).
Interestingly I discovered a coworker of mine has attended their and now attends a different church but the doctrine is the same. Salvation is obtained by repentance followed by water baptism, the baptism of the holy spirit with tounges as evidence! This is really the first that I have heard of this. Not a real popular teaching around here at least.
They aren't the only Pentecostal/charismatic group that insist on tongues as being evidence of the Baptism in the Spirit, but the only ones I've heard of that teach that it's actually necessary to salvation.
The idea that tongues is the "initial evidence" is common in otherwise "sound" groups. It's been discussed here a lot fairly recently. The result of making the instances in Acts, where people spoke in tongues when they received the Spirit, into a rigid rule.
I've heard the idea of water baptism being necessary to, and actually bringing salvation, but not in connection with the other teachings.
Of course, the RC church also teaches "[water] baptismal salvation", and even some of the denominations that came from the Reformation have not completely shaken free from this idea. The Welsh Presbyterians, where I was, still have this concept in the section of the service book to do with infant baptism. It says something like, (after the sprinkling) "Thank you Lord, that this child is now a member of your Church" and calling the child "Your child". I never used this of course, (it was only a suggested form of service, not a rigid rule), but tried to make it clear that a few drops of water, (or even "dunking") in no way made anyone a Christian.
Yet this was the reason I eventually came out - the Lord wouldn't even let me do that any more.
Blessings
Jeannette
But in the meantime - I avoid anything using that term completely, Now.
This is sad. Art Katz says in his book "Apostolic Foundations" that far from avoiding this most holy word, the Church should have a great jealousy over it. Instead of shrieking in horror over the word, we should salivate over it. For apostolic is what the Church should be.
No problems! You Americans tend to think the USA is the only country in the world, but I love y'all anyway! We Welsh merely think that Wales is the best country, and that Welsh is the language of heaven.
Welsh? Wales? What's that? I read something about some [url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/whales_dc]whales being stuck in a waterway in California.[url=http://www.welchs.com/]Welch's Grape Juice.
:-P
Hi KingJimmy,
Well, Ya pegged it on page one alrighty ... but as far as "salivating" or "shrieking in horror" .... I think Neither is/should be the case.
Our "foundation" is Christ. I doubt the original Apostles would want that term used 'particularly' and wouldn't mind if some of us didn't care for the term, especially after what's been done to it.
I'm not meaning this to be a point of contention ... as I'm sure is not your intent either .... but "Christocentric" would suit me just fine or Word of GOD Centric, like Sola Scriptura and so on Theocentric.
I love the Early Church fathers, the first 300 yrs or so ... but I don't read them as Scripture.
If terms are not in the Word, I feel the liberty to avoid or shy away from "terms" that have been mostly used to define "movements".
I think God will understand .... as long as we hunger after Him, His will and His alone.
Have a great nc day neighbor.
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