What constitutes a Biblical marriage?

What constitutes a Biblical marriage?

Are these people married in the eyes of God? Has God bound these satan worshippers together in holy matrimony?

Example #1

The minister was, and is, a false convert. It was found out later that he was living a life of complete evil…drugs, adultery and abuse…you name it he was doing it. He had many deceived.

The bride is a professing atheist.

The groom was on drugs during the ceremony and does not remember say “I do”, or even hearing any of the statements.

They got married to qualify for a trip to Mexico that was for married couples only.

Example #2

The Vegas Marriage

Preacher got his license from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine and has never professed Christ. (He dresses like Elvis)

Bride and Groom never went to Church and have lived their lives devoted to the work of satan

Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Is the marriage vow more important to take than the very words of Christ? Sometimes traditions overrides the word of God.

Have you ever wondered WHY Jesus said those words? Is it because he understood human nature? Was he thinking of Israel’s history – like what they promised at Mt. Sinai, after Moses gave the commandments: Everything the Lord said, we will do’ or after Joshua read the law : < i> “Whatever you have commanded us we will do.” Josh. 1: 16
Joshua, essentially said, Right!!! Oh, sure!!! when he told them: “You are NOT ABLE to serve the Lord.” But the people said, “NO, we WILL serve the Lord.” Josh. 24

You know the story! Can we expect those in our highly dysfunctional, messed up culture to do better than the Israelites?!

When I see the lovely young couples standing at the alter making their wedding vows in a church full of happy people, my heart always grieves. I know that these young folk have no idea of what’s ahead. They have no idea of what they CAN do and CAN’T do. Like most of us, when we were young, they think they can manage life. They have yet to face the reality that, just maybe they CAN’T keep their vows, and they CAN’T make their spouse keep them, and they can't make their marriage happy, let along change their hair color: "And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black." Matt 5:36 (Okay, maybe that's not the best illustration for our culture - but you get the point!)

In spite of our horrendous statistics re marriages, etc our culture continues to play a game by rules (vows, hopes) it CAN’T keep. I call this gross denial. And when we Christians expect more of people than they can do, we are no better. We are playing by the same useless rules.

So why did Jesus say that it is EVIL to make vows beyond the simple yes and no. Is it because that sets people up to live a lie, or to think they can control their future, or trust in something besides God

Thankfully Christ knows that we are totally incapable of managing life, keeping vows, and keeping the law. That’s why we need the new life he has offered us. Why would we insist on anything else?

Diane

tjservant wrote:
What constitutes a Biblical marriage?

Are these people married in the eyes of God? Has God bound these satan worshippers together in holy matrimony?

Example #1

The minister was, and is, a false convert. It was found out later that he was living a life of complete evil…drugs, adultery and abuse…you name it he was doing it. He had many deceived.

The bride is a professing atheist.

The groom was on drugs during the ceremony and does not remember say “I do”, or even hearing any of the statements.

They got married to qualify for a trip to Mexico that was for married couples only.

Example #2

The Vegas Marriage

Preacher got his license from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine and has never professed Christ. (He dresses like Elvis)

Bride and Groom never went to Church and have lived their lives devoted to the work of satan

Hi TJ,

I'd say those people are married. The Bible is full of cases were there are people that weren't following God, but it still says they were husband and wife.

Ahab and Jezebel are examples of this. Even though they were idolaters they were still married.

If you think the people that in the two examples you gave should get remarried or married for really, then all those who marry before coming to Christ should.

Jordan

TJ,

I forgot to give you this sermon link,

http://www.charityministries.org/msg_detail.a5w?vlast_index=2913

If I got the right one, this talks about the definition of a marriage and talks about the question you asked.

Blessings,
Jordan

I'd say those people are married.

So a man that is a confirmed satan worshipper can perform a marriage that God views as good, just, and binding?

If the minister doesn’t matter…what does?

I thought I should say a few things to clarify my reasoning for asking such questions. I am not looking for excuses or trying to find reasons to permit ungodly actions.

I have often faced questioning at work or different locations about the topic of marriage and it seems that many people attribute the Godliness of their minister to their marriage. This is from the same crowd that thinks they are saved because they are members of the Church.

It got me to thinking about some of the situations I have seen or heard about in my life. I am simply looking for the insight of others.

I have heard that the whole idea of a minister performing a marriage is residue from Catholic priesthood. Does anyone know if this is true?
What do people here think of marriages that are recorded in a family bible, but do not use a state license?
I think everyone agrees that what a marriage should be is an agreement between two individuals to live their lives together as a new family. This agreement should be made before God, their families, and everyone else.
But what do we think of marriages that aren't as they should? Like the examples tjservant mentioned?
Well I think that a person should be completely aware of the fact they are getting married (ie: not drugged up). They should also get married for the sake of being married (not for some other reason like a discount cruise as in the example). But a man and a woman who enter a marriage together, aware of what they are doing, for the purpose of starting a family (even if a 2-person family) then they are married. Otherwise we wouldn't have the question of newly saved women leaving or staying with their husbands.

I believe both examples are real marriages.

In the first example, if you groom did not want to get married or know about it, I would say it is not a marriage. As you stated it though, he wanted to get married and agreed to it.

The motives for getting married don't affect whether it is a marriage or not. If it did, hardly any non-believers would be truly married.

The minister doesn't matter at all in my opinion. I don't believe you need a minister at all.

I believe the bare essential of a Biblical marriage is this:

***
If a man and a woman both agree to be married, then they are married at a time they both agree upon.
***

That is the [b]bare necessity[/b] of marriage. I believe God will recognize any marriage that has this component. The ceremony, the minister, the approval and recognition of the government, family and friends - these are all secondary things. Let me give some examples which I believe are all marriages in the sight of God.

Example #3

Two people are planning on getting married on June 20th. They are on a plane together on June 19th when the plane crashes in the middle of the ocean. By the grace of God they survive and end up on an island. The islanders don't speak English. There is little of hope of getting off the island anytime soon. With just a private ceremony between the two of them and without the knowledge of the islanders, the government, the family or friends, the two people take each other in marriage as planned on June 20th.

Example #4

Two atheists of different race want to be married. All the families and friends involved except for the two people are extremely racist. They plan the wedding. None of their families or friends attended the wedding. None of their families or friends recognize the marriage as legitimate. Even so, the atheists marry and are seen as married by the government.

Example #5

Two Jews want to be married in an anti-semitic nation. The two Jews have been living in the mountains with other Jews to hide from the government. They have been there 5 years. The families, friends, and elders agree that the marriage is a good idea. Without the approval of the government, the two Jews are married.

Please don’t take any of this the wrong way. I just want to discuss things that have arisen when I talk to people.

They should also get married for the sake of being married (not for some other reason like a discount cruise as in the example).

This is one of the big problems today. Why get married? I have heard many people say why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

The way the government is set up, it’s financially smart to get married. Couple discounts are found on everything from hotel rooms to steakhouses. I believe this can affect many areas of the couple’s lives and is a compelling factor to marry.

But a man and a woman who enter a marriage together, aware of what they are doing, for the purpose of starting a family (even if a 2-person family) then they are married.

What do they need to be aware of? That they are entering into an institution ordained by a God they don’t believe in? That they will be held accountable whether they believe or not?

It’s hard to get the unsaved/unspiritual to understand the things of God.

I think it's interesting to note that though godless people reject pardon through Christ, many still feel impelled to marry. Why is this? Societal norms? Pressure from parents? Government? I don't know of [i]any[/i] ancient civilization or tribes of people alive today that have not inaugurated some kind of marriage vow/covenant system...no matter how primative or paganistic it may be. The ancient Chinese, Greeks, Polynesians, Aztecs. They all had their covenant ceremonies. Even so-called "atheists" get married. When these men and women underwent their vows, did God see them as truly [i]married[/i] according to their official system? I certainly believe so. And God saw it when they [i]broke[/i] those covenants as well, violating their own consciences, storing up even further wrath for themselves on the day of judgment.

I can only speak from a 21st century western Judeo-Christian platform, a civilization to whom the cross of Christ and God's free redemptive pardon has been shown. We are a blessed people to whom the Bible has been given, and, in it, the express will of God for every man and woman, saved or unsaved. The fact that people fulfill their vows before the Justice of the Peace here in the USA, or are married by an Elvis Presley impersonator does not, I believe, invalidate the covenant in God's eyes. For if they [i]break[/i] the covenant they made in Las Vegas, God shall hold such in the balance of His justice. If God is able to bring unrenerate men and women together (which He does) and they opt to get married in underwater scuba gear while diving in the Caribbean Sea, what does it matter? A covenant has still been erected, one which is validated and officiated by the powers and state authorites put in place by God - and such an act is legally binding in the courts of law, as well as, I truly believe, in the eyes of God.

As for those that have legally come together in matrimony while in the flesh for monetary reasons or for purely lustful intentions, I believe God will still hold such accountable. If I, unsanctioned by God, take out a large bank loan to start a questionable buisiness, and lose it all...am I still accountable [b]by God[/b] to pay back the loan? Of course I am! I realize this strange example may not square with many people, but I think the principle is the same: God holds us all morally accountable, even when the original intention of our actions may not have been of Him.

My two cents anyhow. I didn't feel I had any type of divine inspiration while writing this post; just sharing some of my personal convictions, and such are very much open to critique and/or gracious adjustment.

Brother Paul :-)

did God see them as truly married according to their official system? I certainly believe so

According to THEIR official system.

Is this the same as God's system?

If the Godliness of the minister doesn't matter, and if the participants need not have accepted Christ…what criteria is there?

Are there any requirements for entering the holy institution of marriage?

If the minister doesn’t matter
If their ideals don’t mater
If the paper documentation doesn’t matter

What makes a marriage?

Is it just a decision two consenting adults can make…regardless of there beliefs?

And when two people make this decision, God puts his binding stamp on it whether they understand it or not?

Aren't God's establishments of justice and law set up on earth and entrusted to the ancillary governing agencies of men (often unsaved)? Since the banker is unsaved do I still have to pay back the loan? I took a vow of surety to pay it back, and God holds me accountable. If I took my wedding vows before an unsaved minister or someone who got their credentials from a box of breakfast cereal, will it alter my future accountability in God's eyes? If such is not the case with marriage, God then must repudiate each and every marriage outside the evangelical Christian church. Not one ancient Greek, Egyptian, Roman, Babylonian, Aztec, Chinese marriage was ever validated in his eyes and every man and woman who was and is not of the Judeo-Christian faith was and is a fornicator, regardless of their marriage vows and enduring fidelity.

Pilate's wife who had the bad dreams about Jesus was not really Pilate's lawful wife in such a case - at least, not in God's eyes - as they had been married in a pagan ceremony, yet the Bible says that she was Pilate's [i]wife[/i].

I posted the below scenario on a number of forums a while ago. The majority of replys were of the 'legal' marriage doesn't matter variety. I would appreciate some more replys from this forum.

ontheway

It is common for people here in Thailand to live together, as it is in the West. There are many believers in Church that are living together and have done so for many years. Some are active in church and even have positions of ministry. It is quite possible that they might have a wedding ceremony in front of the church but they do not get legally married. They do not sign a legal register at the county office and therefore the wife does not take the husband's name. The believers in their local body recognise them as a couple/family.

I would appreciate comments on the following questions, also scripture relevant to the topic would be good.

1. What does God think of their union?

2. Are they married?

It is common for people here in Thailand to live together, as it is in the West.

If it's anything like in the West, this is wrong. Those involved are fornicators and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

There are many believers in Church that are living together and have done so for many years.

If this "living together" is the same living together that happens in the West, it is wrong. There is no question.

Some are active in church and even have positions of ministry.

Entirely irrelevant.

It is quite possible that they might have a wedding ceremony in front of the church but they do not get legally married. They do not sign a legal register at the county office and therefore the wife does not take the husband's name.

Why not? Unless they have good reason, such as Christian persecution, I believe this is wrong. Marriage is always a legal agreement if at all possible. God has made this clear in His word.

The believers in their local body recognise them as a couple/family.

A "couple/family" is not a marriage. Even if the believers recognize them as married, I do not think this alone is grounds for marriage, unless governmental approval is not possible.

Nile

EDIT: Some of my comments were undeservedly harsh and I've removed/changed them.

I like the term you used...vows. Is a minister needed?

Is a minister needed?

When two children of God are united, this question is not really an issue. They get married in the church, usually with their Pastor officiating. But what happens when two irreligious people desire to marry? Can the marriage only be validated in God's eyes if a minister officiates? This, I think, would be a trite, weak, legalistic notion. Almost like a formula, akin to Roman Catholic infant baptism. What does the obligatory minister matter if God is out of the equation in their personal lives?

How can someone make a conscious covenantal vow under a God they do not know or have never met? They make vows of fidelity toward each other, and if a mention of accountability to the unknown God is included, so be it. But because they may not fully understand the seriousness of what they are entering into, does this automatically disqualify their lawful union in the eyes of God? When they consumate their marriage vows will they have committed fornication? Adultery, perhaps. But if neither were previously married...will their bed still be defiled? I believe that if the land they live in recognizes their marriage as legally and morally binding, and if the minister or judge has the state's authority to pronounce them "husband and wife", then God also records their vows and holds them legally to the covenant, even if they don't acknowledge Him or were married by an Elvis impersonator. The state recognizes it, and God also does, as he has established the legal custom of marriage in every land and tribe and tongue throughout history. Even genuine Christians who marry in the church are required by the state of Texas to go to the Justice of the Peace where you raise your hand and swear for the legal filing of your certificate.

We must obey the ordinances of men, put in place by God. I believe that if a couple refused to go to the JP after leaving their church, they would be in disobedience to God. Their marriage would remain unofficial. I'll leave it to you to decide whether God would also see it as such!

Thoughts? :-)

Brother Paul

I think I’m starting to form an understanding. You can say you don’t believe in the devil, but still be one of his followers. Not believing in the Godly institution of marriage does not mean you have not entered into it.

Okay, what about the young couple (18 ish) that pledge their love to each other forever and ever before they sleep together. Have they entered into a “marriage”?

that pledge their love to each other forever and ever before they sleep together

"They gave each other a [i]pledge[/i]? Unheard of! Unthinkable!"

Sorry, TJ. Couldn't resist quoting Rev Tevye from "Fiddler on the Roof". One of my all-time favorites. Have you seen it?

Well, I think you know the answer to this question. If these two 18 year-olds (what is the significance with age, btw?) gave each other a "pledge" to love each other forever and ever, then they shouldn't have any problem waiting for marriage. Lust wants sex before marriage; love is honorable and pure and longsuffering and desires only the best for the other person. If the guy truly loved his girlfriend he would wait for marriage and honor and cherish her with a pure, undefiled bed. To have her before marriage is a selfish, sinful, defiling act - fully illegal - no matter how many earnest pledges they gave each other. Prisoners pledge and plea and swear oaths before judges on the bench. They sweat bullets when the gavel is in the judge's hand, and are, for the most part, deadly serious [i]at the time[/i] when they pledge to clean up their lives immediately if the judge deigns to grant them clemency. But what usually happens?

If they are granted clemency, they may fly straight for awhile, but the moment is over. The gut-wrentching, immediate danger is gone. People normally give pledges in heated of moments of desperation, only to inexorably cool off when they achieve what they pleaded for. God is no fool, and He'll never bend his standards pertaining to pre-marital carnal knowledge on account of the emotion-driven pledges of wicked men.

What do you think? Boyfriends and girlfriends give each other similar pledges a trillion times over. Even as I type this, some boy is giving a gullible girl a pledge right now and they will sleep together...and break up in a matter of months.

God's marital law is perfect and He is right and good. Any person who tries to enter into sexual relations otherwise is a thief and a robber, climbing over walls, eschewing the only narrow way leading to safe, blessed, carnal pleasure - which is to be found [b]only[/b] through the doorway of marriage.

Oops! It looks like another thread has snuck up, and my last post was meant to link to the other thread. Sorry.

Anyway, I noticed that no one has yet offered scriptures that define what God would accept as a proper procedure or circumstance by which a union is authentic. This is crucial! The absence of that “procedure” is the bases by which the partners are deemed fornicators - and thus judged as rebellious against God. But as I stated earlier, without clear indication of a divine LAW which is being violated, their accusers are no different than the Pharisees who accused the apostles of breaking the law (really THEIR law). I see that one poster even claims that those who don’t have a “proper” ceremony are hell-bound. Please offer clear scriptures to warrant such a verdict! Otherwise you are merely transferring your personal cultural values onto a foreign culture.

In my own search I was drawn to the following verses: (Notice that they tell us nothing other than that marriage is a fact of life. God and Jesus seem to acknowledge that. Maybe we should too.)

”For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;” Matthew 24:38

Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage.” Luke 20:34

There’s nothing here about what God would recognize as legit or not. From what I can see in scripture it seems that God is most concerned with how we (the saved ones) live out our daily lives TODAY. It’s not about how the relationship got started, but how it is lived out: fidelity, love, submission, etc etc. Let’s admit - among the early Christians, probably most of the unions did not begin from a godly base. Maybe they were united under the pagan deities. (I need to research this) And then, often one would become saved and the other not. The biblical response to that dilemma had more to do with relational than legal issues: ie – if the unbeliever accepted it or not. Please note the biblical RATIONAL: “God called us to live in PEACE” 1 Cor. 7:15

If I understand correctly, according to God, relational peace is a higher virtue than just sticking together for the “legal” sake of it. (no mention in the word about legal marriages)
This sounds scandalous, I know. But then, God’s ways are not our ways.

PS: I noticed also, that biblically, the partners must both consent – even the woman (not normal in most cultures – even some today) 1 Cor. 9:39 So, from that point of view the only union that is NOT valid (or acceptable to God AS a marriage) is where a partner is forced into it. (besides those where one is already joined to another)

Am I tracking right????
Diane

gave each other a "pledge" to love each other forever and ever, then they shouldn't have any problem waiting for marriage.

Waiting for what marriage? What makes it a marriage? A minister that doesn’t matter? A document that means nothing? A ceremony? Are these things necessary in God’s eyes?