What if Israel had obeyed god?

D

daniel- Jun 2, 2007

Hello,

as i was reading Romans today, this passage caused me to think about God's sovereighnty.
Please follow my thought:

Romans 11

[7]
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[8]
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[9]
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
[10]
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
[11]
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Based on this, I asked myself:
What would have happened if the Jews would indeed have done what god commanded them to do?
What if they had obeyed him, entered the promised land and obtained the promise?
Would they still be there today, sacrifing animals?
The fact that they fell away from god and later on rejected the Messiah, made it possible for God's plan to save mankind to unfold.

But if they would have done what god commanded them to do, how would things have gone?
Do you get what I mean?
The very fact that they disobeyed brought salvation to the gentiles and mankind.

So, what was gods "initial" plan?
Of course he knows the beginning from the end and so brought forth the messiah that would be crucified. That was his plan.
But this plan is based on Israel not doing what god commanded them to do. Or am I mistaken here?

God had a plan for Saul. He indeed could have stayed his anointed king. But he fell away and so god raised up David.

God had a plan for Israel. They could have indeed entered the promised land and lived there the way god intended them to live there.
But then, how would have god brought forth salvation for mankind?

I found this thought to be very interesting, does anyone have any suggestions?`
Where in all this am I mistaken? :)

Thanks for reading
Daniel

sermonindex Jun 2, 2007

As they say: A text, without the context, is pretext.

Try reading that entire chapter and I think your question and other's lately about "The Jews" will be answered. Really - the answers to your questions are really in that one chapter alone.
Reading it plainly and literally would also make it clearer.

It's not "God HAD a plan for Israel" ... God has had a plan for Israel from before Creation and HE hasn't changed His mind one iota (Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.) ... as it says through Romans 11 and so many other books of our Bible. To make of two peoples into one. "To the Jew first and also to the Greek". WE are grafted into 'them', not the other way around.

"the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"

Rom 11:26,27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

"And they shall look upon him whom they have pierced" Zech 12:10 - John 19:37 - Rev. 1:7

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he 'foreknew' .... Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a 'remnant' according to the election of grace ....
A remnant of Israel that God foreknew were the first to be called "the elect" - now we also, are joined together with them ... that is, the "gentiles" which God through his foreknowledge knew from the foundation, would come and remain in Him by choice are also the same 'elect' - One people.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Amo 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Jer 30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwelling places; and the city shall be built upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as formerly, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
Jer 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer 30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
Jer 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me forever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Jer 32:41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
Jer 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Jer 32:43 And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.
Jer 32:44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.

Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Eze 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
Eze 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
Eze 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.
Eze 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.
Eze 34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.
Eze 34:29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.
Eze 34:30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 34:31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children forever: and my servant David shall be their prince forever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

All of Zech 14 and Micah 4

Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
Joe 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell forever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
Joe 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

I guess we just can't "what if" - if it was God's Plan & Foreknowledge from the Foundation of the World.

Sorry that this may be a lot - but dito on the "thanks for reading."

Annie

U

UniqueWebRev Jun 2, 2007

daniel- wrote:
Hello,
as i was reading Romans today, this passage caused me to think about God's sovereighnty.
Please follow my thought:
Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Based on this, I asked myself:
What would have happened if the Jews would indeed have done what god commanded them to do?
What if they had obeyed him, entered the promised land and obtained the promise?
Would they still be there today, sacrifing animals?....But if they would have done what God commanded them to do, how would things have gone?
Do you get what I mean? The very fact that they disobeyed brought salvation to the gentiles and mankind....God had a plan for Israel. They could have indeed entered the promised land and lived there the way god intended them to live there.
But then, how would have god brought forth salvation for mankind?
I found this thought to be very interesting, does anyone have any suggestions?`
Where in all this am I mistaken? :)
Thanks for reading
Daniel

Daniel,

Actually, even had all the Twelve Tribes lived in obedience to the Law, there was still a fault in mankind through Adam that could only be gotten out through the death of Jesus.

God made sure that the Jews that were in power did not accept Jesus by blinding them to the truth. Jesus still had to die on schedule to fulfill the prophecies, complete the plan of the law, and give us the plan of grace. Even had all the Jews welcomed Jesus, there were still plenty of Roman's to take care of the job.

Jesus's claim to be King of the Jews would still have gotten him killed, since the Roman's would not have agreed, even had all of the Jews, which God made sure they would not. God needed Jesus to be crucified, so that the rest of the world would have an opportunity to be grafted into Abraham, and obtain salvation by grace.

And it was because of the Jews continuous inability to obey God that they were so often scattered and brought back. And God used all of this to teach a series of lessons that lead up to the plan of grace.

There would have perhaps have been a lot more Messianic Jews killed by Rome, but a lot fewer Messianic Jews killed by Christians, although if the Roman Catholic Church still came into being,

I have a nasty feeling that they would still have gone after the Jews, not for their lack of belief, but for heresy, since they would not have believed the same, even as we Protestants cannot treat the RCC as other than a huge cult, due to their beliefs that are not in the Bible.

It's interesting to think on, but in the end, God would pretty much have needed to bring it all about as is now planned...since it was known and planned from the beginning.

Basically, it is the details that would have changed, the Jews might have been in Israel, no longer sacrificing, but living as 'Completed Jews', as I have heard Messianic Jews called lately.

Some persecutions and judgements would have been less, because of less disobedience by the Jews, but frankly, under the Law, there was no way to live as God wanted us to live, with the Law in our hearts, and not in our outer ways alone.

The fact that the Jews fell away from God over and over again, and later on rejected the Messiah, made it possible for God's plan to save mankind through Jesus to unfold.

For God's goal alone has been from the beginning to get Himself a family. Adam blew that one for us, but Jesus rectified the situation for all of us who would but believe, and act on that belief.

But God still promised a remnant of Israel to go on into the Millenium, and they will replenish the earth under Jesus's rule, and with us as the government.

I look forward to it...it should be a lot of fun, being with Jesus. And frankly, we will have a lot to do on earth, and a lot to learn in the New Jerusalem when off duty. We are all so very young in Christ!

Blessings,

Forrest

sermonindex Jun 2, 2007

Hi Daniel

I've been at the computer for hours today, so must read your post more carefully after having a break.

Just a quick comment on the question, and an example from personal experience:

Everything is part of God's plan. He even arranges it that we fail or disobey Him in order to bring the greater good. He USES even what wicked men do - how much more His own people?

My example was when I went to Uganda, Africa, to work in a children's home for a year in 2002. I was determined to go, even though the Lord was saying "wait". I convinced myself it was His will, though I knew deep down that it wasn't - because I wasn't ready.

He allowed me to go, though I had a harder time than it might otherwise have been, because I had no peace. Even though I love Uganda, and felt "homseick" for a long time after coming back.

The Lord showed me, while still there, that He hadn't just allowed me to go but had ~~[i][u]~~planned[/u][/i] the whole thing! He knew very well that when the opportunity came I woldn't be able to wait, so He arranged the opportunity!

The reason? He wanted to deal with certain things in my heart (such as the "needing to be needed" that drove me to want to go in the first place). If I hadn't gone - in disobedience - I wouldn't afterwards have let Him deal with these things.

Blessings

Jeannette

O

ornega3 Jun 3, 2007

Hello daniel-,

This is a reply to your posting, as well to all others with what I've felt led to relate on this topic.

While it is difficult to understand, and there are varying viewpoints, I'd like to approach it from the view through Romans 10. Said briefly, God's chosen people Israel disobeyed, but the Redeemer was to come through Israel to bring all nations to him. Israel did not receive her King, but he is her husband and He, for his own glory and name's sake will birth the nation of Israel.
He is still birthing individuals into his church and kingdom. See Rom.10 v.11-15. His salvation is for any and all who come to Him, Jew and Gentile alike.

But while we have knowledge of the history of God's people through Scripture, and of the New Covenant, I don't think at all that we can say that we know, or can know all God's mind and will as can be summed up in one paragraph. It's always wise to keep in mind that we are people, and God is God.
And yes, he became a man, but he is still fully God. God, the always existent, the personage and power that brought all creation and our reality- physical, mental, spiritual and social into being. In considering the broad scope of Israel through Scripture, we should consider that we too, are people, with similar struggles, wants, needs and hopes in life. And rather than any faulting of the infidelity of Israel, we should sorrow that God's will was not obeyed, bringing about the judgements of God. Even though we have knowledge of God's dealing with Israel to read in the present day and can, as we should, consider it good in that we can thank God, we need to heed still the admonitions given to all the people of God. There is all that is applicable from God's word to us in the present day.

I think it's unwise to liken God to a cosmic chess player, or as people as his pawns and puppets. God is of more greatness and goodness than people's ideas of Him. I also think it's utterly wrong to say that he willed or caused Israel to disobey, to thereby bring about His hidden or ulterior plan, or willed Eve with Adam to be deceived and to disobey his revealed will to them. God's perfect goodness is shown in that he has given us freewill. We can speculate on matters, with God having absolute foreknowledge, but our speculations would be just that. There was a reality of people and conditions present at those times that we cannot know in detail, but what we do know is that people are of a fallen nature, none of us immune to the influences of tide and tempest.

And, of course, we cannot comprehend all reality then or now, as God sovereignly does and should not assume that we have 'God' understanding nor presume on his actions or will. We can know and we can think, and to comprehend as much as we can, and certainly what God has revealed to us through his Word. But in order to stay grounded, it's good to consider that God is. And we are. That we even came into 'being' is more than we can truly fathom. Even more, that we can be adopted into his family. His will for all people has been revealed through his Son, as in Rom. 10:13 and throughout Scripture. Again, we should not presume on God or make Him conformed to our ideations, involving His will and 'plan' concerning this people or that, meaning saying that he made the Jews reject him so that he could save the Gentiles.

It is stated in the Psalms that God's will is the same for every generation. Each self, of its own self, is accountable to God, and throughout Scripture, God works through people on individual bases. I for one am truly glad that God is who he is in character, as revealed through his Son, and that he is utterly trustworthy, concerning his dealings with us his creatures. And so, brothers, it is people who would err, and not God.

ornega3

O

ornega3 Jun 3, 2007

quote:

Hello,

as i was reading Romans today, this passage caused me to think about God's sovereighnty.
Please follow my thought:

Romans 11

[7]
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
[8]
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[9]
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
[10]
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
[11]
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Based on this, I asked myself:
What would have happened if the Jews would indeed have done what god commanded them to do?
What if they had obeyed him, entered the promised land and obtained the promise?
Would they still be there today, sacrifing animals?
The fact that they fell away from god and later on rejected the Messiah, made it possible for God's plan to save mankind to unfold.

But if they would have done what god commanded them to do, how would things have gone?
Do you get what I mean?
The very fact that they disobeyed brought salvation to the gentiles and mankind.

So, what was gods "initial" plan?
Of course he knows the beginning from the end and so brought forth the messiah that would be crucified. That was his plan.
But this plan is based on Israel not doing what god commanded them to do. Or am I mistaken here?

God had a plan for Saul. He indeed could have stayed his anointed king. But he fell away and so god raised up David.

God had a plan for Israel. They could have indeed entered the promised land and lived there the way god intended them to live there.
But then, how would have god brought forth salvation for mankind?

I found this thought to be very interesting, does anyone have any suggestions?`
Where in all this am I mistaken? :)

Thanks for reading
Daniel

Just to add to my last post but not get into a whole new can of worms, scientifically speaking(?), if Israel had obeyed, it seems safe to say that reality would be different. Would we even exist? What would the course of history have been? It seems that only God can answer that question. It's something it seems we'll be sure to ask him when we get there.

Blessings to you all,

ornega3

Ephesians: What a foundation you stand on now: the apostles and the prophets; and the cornersone of the building is Jesus Christ himself! We who believe are carefully joined together with Christ as parts of a beautiful, constantly growing temple for God. And you also are joined together with him and with each other by the Spirit, and are part of this dwelling place of God. Ch.2 v.20-22

sermonindex Jun 3, 2007

Hi

Just to add a thought or two onto the "what if...?"

In general, it's probably true that "What if...? Is just as futile as "If only...".

What's done is done and what happened happened, so speculating is useless.

However, if we are spurred on by this question to seek to understand more of the character of God, to seek to know Him better, that can't be bad, can it? :-D

As long as we remember that "What if...?" isn't the ~~[i]~~real[/i] question. And maybe only the Lord knows our real question!

Job kept asking "Why...?" when he was suffering so much, but when the Lord came to him he stopped asking. Because ~~[i][u]~~an encounter (or a fresh encounter) with the Lord, answers all our NEED[/u][/i], not all our questions!

Another example, (though there was no question asked this time), is the paralysed man in the Gospel whose friends brought him to Jesus. His obvious need was for healing so that he could walk. But Jesus first answered his REAL need, forgiveness of sins -then healed his body as a bonus!

Looking at the question, I think God would have done exactly the same as He did do! He just would have done it in a different way!

Think how many times mankind rebelled against and seemed to frustrate His purpose. One time He had to destroy the lot - except for a handful (the Flood). Another time (as in the present question) there was a 40 year delay.
Another time Herod tried to destroy the infant Jesus.

Yet each time, God found a way to bring His purposes to fruition.

What of these days? Isn't the Enemy trying to destroy the Church, as well as Israel, by enemies and persecution without and corruption and idolatry within?

Yet always His purpose is sure, and He will bring it to pass.

We can rebel against Him, as Israel did, and had to return to the wilderness for 40 years, we can take ourselves out from entering the good thing that He would have done for us, we can miss His purposes, but He still does what He does and no-one can stop Him!

Blessings

Jeannette

sermonindex Jun 3, 2007

Hi Ornega

I posted some of similar thoughts before reading yours. But you have given us a lot more to chew on. Thank you.

By the way, re your last post, it would be less confusing if you put the original post in "quote" mode. I read most of your post, thinking why was it so familiar? before realising that it was quoting Daniel's original post.

All you need to do is either press "Quote" at the bottom left hand corner of the reply box, or type [quote...] at the beginning, and [/quote...]at the end of the quote, only without the dots.

like this

You can also use the top of the message box, type whatever you want to say in the little box, then press any of the buttons you want to make it italics, bold, quote, underline, or any colour you like from the colour box. Then press "add" and it pastes your typing right at the bottom of the box.

It took me ages to get the hang of it, it's much more fiddly than Word, or ordinary emails. But after a while one get's used to doing it.

Blessings

Jeannette

O

ornega3 Jun 3, 2007

like this

Hello LittleGift,

I've sent you a mail as a rejoinder, thank you again, and God bless.

ornega3

R

rowdy2 Jun 3, 2007

Jesus from Galilee

I think It may help you a great deal if you would make a study on who are called Jews by the Bible because ten tribes had separated themselves.

Today we call every one of Israeli descent or nationality a Jew but the Bible doesn’t, it makes distinctions between Samaritans, Jews and Galileans

In the time of our Lord, Palestine was divided into three provinces, Judea, Samaria, and Galilee and collectively they were Hebrews or Israelis .

Galilee of the nations or Gentiles was the home of our Lord during at least thirty years of his life in Galilee (Matt. 4:15), or Upper Galilee or norther Galilee, or Galilee of the Gentiles. The area of land toward the south called Lower Galilee.

People of Galilee were not called Jews, they were called Galileans and the people that lived in Judea are called Jews in the Bible. The only people that our Lord sent His Galilean disciples to warn that the day of the Lord was upon them were the Jews.

My understanding is that all but one of the Apostles were Galileans. .

Isaiah 9
1. Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
2. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
3. Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4. For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.
5. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
8. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.
9. And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart,
10. The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.
11. Therefore the Lord shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together;
12. The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
13. For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the Lord of hosts.
14. Therefore the Lord will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
15. The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16. For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
17. Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
18. For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
19. Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
20. And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
21. Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

.

Yes a great star shone on Bethlehem of Judea but there was a light also Our Morning Star, Christ (Rev. 22:16; comp. 2 Pet. 1:19). Christ promises that he will give the "morning star" , that he will give to them himself, that he will impart to them his own glory and a share in his own royal dominion..

Eddie

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007

Hi daniel-

Just a few thoughts on your topic, though not very focused on your specific questions.

At the back of my mind always, is that God promised the Saviour to Eve, first. This is the context within which He invited Abram to obey Him, later changed his name to Abraham, Sarai's to Sarah and Jacob's to Israel.

I have no doubt at all that the picture of smoke and fire on Mount Sinai when the law was being given to Moses, (where mountains denote authority or headship) is enacted for real when the Holy Spirit appears like flames of fire on the disciples' heads.

Paul's thesis of how the whole world's inhabitants have been concluded under sin, that God may have mercy on them all, and that Abraham is the father of faith dating from before his circumcision, are all aspects of the promises in scripture, if God's word is to be heard with ears of understanding.

I have been thinking about the role of the children of Israel in all this, and how many more than they are now known as 'Jews', and have concluded that they were chosen by God to exemplify a whole range of human behaviour, to which no gentile can claim to be totally immune. In this respect, with the eyes of the world on them and their laws, Jesus had to be Jewish, to demonstrate openly an end to whatever was wrong with human nature.

From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Eden, to the children of Israel ~~[i]~~all[/i] finding themselves in Egypt where they would learn about external idolatry as never before, to their incomplete possession of the land when they returned to it, we see that God set them up to demonstrate that even with all His help, His power and pleadings, they needed a Saviour too, that the inner change of heart God desired, could be theirs first.

Annie brought out a verse I didn't know existed, in her post above:

Jer 33
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and ~~[b]~~if[/b] I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26~~[b]~~ Then[/b] will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed ~~[b]~~to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob[/b]: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

These verse are a bit tricky because of the figure of speech which is being used to emphasise God's intention, but I pick it out because it has an interesting circle in it, of Jacob's seed through David being chosen to reign over Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's seed.

This sounds a bit like 'The Lord said unto my Lord...'

This also appears to make the seed of David higher than the seed of Jacob (Israel) - the elder (flesh) serving the younger (spirit), David being 'a man after' God's 'heart'.

EDIT:

So, is this 'replacement theology' or not? :-?

EDIT end

Interesting.
:-?

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007

excellent question. more excellent for the bravery you showed in asking it here, for i have tons like yours(and one of them was what you asked) that i dare not utter for the implications.it's always interesting to me that Israel was to be example to the surrounding area in being Holy to the Lord. One of the most intriguing thing i found about the exodus from egypt is that there is really no word about what the effect was upon the surrounding area, until you get to the books Numbers and Deutronomy and Joshua. i will give a tease question, which i believe is behind the question you raised, what's the role of Satan in the temptation of Eve? could she have taken the fruit to eat it without first ever being cajoled by the serpent? and from that question, i at leat have 3 other questions that arise in my mind

R

rowdy2 Jun 7, 2007

Reply

Israel was warned that if they did not repent that they would be sent into captivity and they were. A remnant was restored to the land as friends of God and the holder of the promise that they were chosen to bring forth the Messiah. They again took their birthright lightly and rejected the chance to be frist to except the Christ. But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked and did not come to the wedding feast so God rejected them or reprobated them because of their own worthlessness (Jer. 6:all; Heb. 6:7-8 rejected because they failed to make use of opportunities offered them (1 Cor. 9:27; 2 Cor. 13:5-7).

The only time I can recall that Israel reached out to another nation when they were not in captivity themselves was when with great reluctance Jonah went too the people of Nineveh and warned them to repent. They only fed the spiritual scrapes of their tables to the Gentile nations that they refered to as being dogs and only gave them dredges to drink.

To day all them of a broken spirit and a contrite spirit are invited whether they are Jew, Greek or Gentile. But the Jews will be rejected if they don’t wear a wedding garment cleansed pure white by the cleansing blood of their Christ and ours the Prince of Peace.

We as Christians or Jews know:

Nahum 1
The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked, the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers. Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Eddie