Binocular vision! - Hebrews 11

Hi everyone

These thoughts came as a result of the discussions on Israel, but they are far wider than that, so it seemed best to begin another thread.

Not to do with our different opinions and interpretations but to do with one of the [i][b]keys[/b][/i] to interpretation, that I have only recently begun to understand, although I have used it, without clearly understanding (such as saying that Predestination and Free Will are [u]both[/u] true).

I don't know if I can explain in words what I “saw”, or whether you can receive it in those words, but will try.

In essence it's so wonderfully [i]simple[/i]!!!

Physical and spiritual run together and touch, interact and intertwine, yet they are distinct.

The Spirit divides by the Word, between soul and spirit, joints and marrow (Hebrews 4). In the Hebrews passage the context is discernment of our motives, dividing in us between “flesh and spirit”, between that which is of God and that which is not. However, I believe it applies elsewhere too.

We live in two dimensions at once, are citizens of two kingdoms at once. We are “seated in heavenly places in Christ” yet are also still plodding along in this mortal life in our old bodies (some of them older than others!); still subject to disease and death and temptation.

At least in this present age, before the return of the Lord), there are two kingdoms, two Promises, two blessings, two Jerusalems, two births, two deaths, two resurrections, two “trees” (Genesis 3), two Israels - two people of God, two creations.

First the natural, then the spiritual, (1Cor 15), first the old body, then the new. First the “old Adam”, and the curse of Babel upon the nations; then the one new man in Christ, and the Tree for the healing of the nations.

At this present time [i][b]both[/b][/i] exist together.

What I realized this morning was that Hebrews 11, not the whole chapter but certain sections of it, illustrates this principle (main points emphasized):

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. 9 By faith he sojourned [u][i]in the land of promise[/i][/u], as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, [i][u] heirs with him of the same promise[/i][/u]. 10 For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God …
12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, [i][u] not having received what was promised[/i][/u], but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he [i][u] who had received the promises[/i][/u] was ready to offer up his only son,
18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” 19 He considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead; hence, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back...
22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and [i][u] gave directions concerning his burial[/i][/u] …

…39 And all these, though well attested by their faith, [i][u] did not receive what was promised, [/i][/u]. 40 since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect

All the underlined parts, except the reference to Joseph, speak of the promise of God. Yet there are two aspects to the promise, physical and spiritual. Why does it say, by turns, in this passage that these men and women of faith had [i]not[/i] received the promise, then [i]had[/i] received the promise then again [i]had not[/i] received the promise? Because the passage is talking about both aspects of the promise!

So which of the two promises were being received, or not received, in each of these references? The physical promise? The spiritual Promise? Or both? One moment the writer seems to be seeing the physical promise, the next the spiritual, the next either - or both at once!

The Joseph reference is interesting. Joseph obviously believed that the people would one day return to the physical land of promise. The command “concerning his bones” was to do with that, a statement of faith re their actual, physical return to the Land.

Does that mean that Joseph had less faith than Abraham, because he only looked forward to the physical fulfillment? Does it mean that Abraham didn’t believe in the physical promise because he himself was enabled by faith to press right through to the receiving of the spiritual Promise? Of course not!

As I said, God keeps His Word, on whatever level the promise is made.

It also says in Hebrews 11 that these OT saints were not complete, (“perfect”) without us. But neither are we complete without them! The New Jerusalem in Revelation has both the apostles and the sons of Israel. Paul spoke of being built upon the foundation of the apostles [i]and[/i] prophets (Eph 2:20. Why did both Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in the Transfiguration? But then they disappeared and the disciples saw only Jesus. So it will be at “the end of the age”.

“We see not yet all things put under him, but we see Jesus…”

I hope that at least some of this makes sense!

In Him

Jeannette

We live in two dimensions at once, are citizens of two kingdoms at once.

The chameleon ( a kind of lizard) can move its eyes independently. When both eyes are forward together, the animal can easily focus accurately to catch its food. But it can just as easily have one eye looking forwards and the other behind. Somehow it's able to make sense of both these images with the greatest of ease!

There is also a fish called the four-eyed fish. Each eye has a horizontal division in the middle. It swims along at the water surface with the upper parts of its eyes above water and the lower parts under the water. [i][b]It thus has clear images of above and below at the same time[/b][/i]. Again, it easily makes sense of what it sees, and can scan both dimensions for food, enemies etc.

Blessings

Jeannette

I've watched all your posts through-out this Israel debate.
Very lucid - to the point - lots of Bible - Thank you.

I won't post here neither but I posted earlier here ...
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17218&forum=36&2

There were tons more Scripture that I had to post on the same issue .... but mostly all I want or need to say now is .... it is not "they or them" and us. We're One.

And yes, I have an old apologetics book that says we need to see the "both/and" (that's the title) through our "apologeticing" on any doctrine ... so I really like your term Binocular Vision.
Very good little sheep.

edit: Oh, what I meant to add is ..... the "key" is not spiritualizing where not necessary (nor intended by The Author) and knowing when to spiritualize scripture. That's where I felt and feel you've done well. Spiritualizing where it's not appropriate is pride and a compensating for a lack of "relationship" by trying to appear spiritual.

Ha ~ a voice of my own experience with myself.
He's Merciful ! ;-)

Thanks for this encouragement, Annie (is that your real name?)

I do find it difficult when some of us don't even seem to understand one another - let alone agree!

So it's really nice to find someone does understand what I'm trying to say!

I don't mind disagreeing, as long as we can at least [i]communicate[/i]!

Btw, I like your use of "apologeticing"! :lol:

in Him

Jeannette

Very Interesting "key" Jeannette. I hope you'll be able to expound further.

I want to comment on

he who had received the promises

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

I hope my crude analogies didn't confuse anyone.

Hi LittleGift,

When you use just the Word to speak for you, you'll be understood by those who use just the Word. That's all I can tell ya from Forum Fun or debate experiences, besides the stuff mentioned earlier about "over-spiritualizing".

I'd like to post some more, but not at you or anyone else, but because I said "we are one" above. Paul called it "the mystery" and I love it ---- once I saw it.
After you've sat under "typical" teachers for the first few years your saved, you get some strange views about the Trinity (they make the 3 like a Totem pole instead of total co-equality) and they split the Word up - somethings for "the Jews" and some things for us.

One Book - One People who are The Elect.

I'll just post these and thank you for the humor too. I need lots of it. :-)

Grannie Annie is indeed what my grand-babies call me. :-D Thanks !

Did Paul teach a difference between the Jew & Christian ?

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is [u]no difference[/u]:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (And Zech, just for one, says they will.)

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 [b]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of [u]this mystery[/u], lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,[u] until[/u] the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.[/b]

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Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

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Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 [u]Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision[/u], Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, [u]as the elect of God[/u], holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

When ? Since the first Church until .......

Zech. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:37 And again another Scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Who of 'them' that are yet remaining till He comes ? .....

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Next question, "Will all 'Christians' be saved when That Day comes ?"

Needless to say - not all who call themselves Jews or Christians are who God knows are His Elect. The real McCoyers.

Thanks !

Har, for someone who didn't want to post much - I couldn't help this.

I had a thought I've had before and then read your 2nd post above again and it fit right along with it.

Extended it to GOD'S capacity over omniscience (talk about Eyes all over the place :) ... and knowing that He said, "I have sheep you know not of" and bringing in those who He promised He would draw to Himself in "those days" and on "that day" ... I'm thinking now to how scattered the Jews are.

Many may be direct descendants of say, Judah or Joseph, whomever and yet because their ancestors backslid, they don't even know they're "Jews".

My only point in this is ... I won't know until He Comes, who His Elect are or will be. A Muslim may "look upon Him who they had pierced" and mourn and even be part of the 1/3 that He does the Zech 13:9 thing to, through the times of Jacob's trouble. Lots of folks of all sorts will be saved during those incredible days ahead. I could look at anyone and wonder - will they be part of that (or even this) great last harvest or "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

For God so LOVED THE WORLD that He ....

Reckon that's why I hate to see folks split up into pigeon-holing type ways.

You could have a "Christian" on a bus, looking down at an 'anybody' and at the end ... the 'anybody' got saved and the self-righteous "Christian" wasn't.

[u]Love People[/u]. I know that's what HE's calling us to do and treat them accordingly, as HE did while here in the flesh. Lots of mercy for the unsaved. Not much with the self-righteous though or the money changers. Tough line (tight-rope) to walk.

Have a good Sunday.

A [url=http://whozoo.org/Intro2000/rafajohn/tempagetwo.htm]four eyed[/url] Fish eh? The first underwater Nerds and Geeks maybe?

Compliments wrote:
A [url=http://whozoo.org/Intro2000/rafajohn/tempagetwo.htm]four eyed[/url] Fish eh? The first underwater Nerds and Geeks maybe?

Thanks Bro. I really enjoyed that link, read most of it, fascinating. Four-eyed fish are indeed strange creatures!

What saddened and amused me the most was that the authors expressed amazement at how this fish's eyes could have "evolved" in such an intricate, wonderful, perfectly adapted way. But it still didn't occur to them to question that maybe Evolution itself isn't true!

"The fool says in his heart there is no God"

Jeannette

Appreciate all the comment s on this thread, not time to reply to all, but some good stuff to browse!

Blessings

Jeannette