Time and Eterntiy

Just some thoughts springing from discussions in recent threads:

[u]Timeline Example[/u]:

Imagine a man called John Smith. A summary of his life might go:

Born 1920

Started school in 1925

Finished school in 1935 and went to work on the railroad

Got married in 1936, and had two children

1938 Called up and joined the Army. Fought in WWII

1945 Discharged from the Army and returned to original job

Retired in 1985

Died in 2002.

This is the summary of his life in TIME. The facts of his life are correct and true at the present time, in 2007.

But from an eternal perspective you could say, “John Smith is dead”, and it would be equally true in 2007AD as in 2007BC!

There's a little Christmas poem that begins:

“Silence, the moving stars
And running sands confess
Now [i][b]God steps into time
From everlastingness[/b][/i]…”

Eternity seems to kind-of impinge on time, in a way that we find difficult to grasp. And the Bible often speaks from both a time perspective and an eternal perspective all at once in the same passage.

For example, the statement that we are “seated in heavenly places in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3 and 2:6). That is an eternal truth. It was just as true [i][b]before we were born[/b][/i] as it is now, and as it will be when we are there with our new bodies, in the resurrection.

Another example is in Hebrews 1:5, quoting Psalm 2:7

[i][color=000066] 5 For to what angel did God ever say,
“Thou art my Son,
today I have begotten thee”?[/color][/i]
When the Psalmist wrote, the Incarnation was many years in the future, yet he wrote as if it had happened, or was happening then. This is eternal truth.

Also 1Corinthians 15:27-28, and Hebrews 2:9, quoting Psalm 8

[i][color=000066]Heb 2:6 “What is man that thou art mindful of him,
or the son of man, that thou carest for him? 7 Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see Jesus…' [/color][/i]

God HAS put (an eternal truth) all things under His feet, yet “we do NOT YET see all things under Him, (a temporal truth).”

Apparently, in the Hebrew OT, there is a past tense called the “prophetic perfect”. This speaks of future events AS IF THEY HAD ALREADY HEPPENED. This is expressing eternal truth. From God’s perspective. As far as He is concerned it HAS already happened!

At this present time certain eternal truths are also true in the here and now, others are not.

We are in heavenly places in Christ in spirit but our bodies have yet to be glorified, and set free from sickness, suffering and death. We have yet to ascend there physically, yet spiritually we are there! Jesus has gone to heaven but not yet bodily returned. Yet we have received His Spirit, as a foretaste of His return. The spiritual truth has already come, but the physical truth is not yet.

Perhaps that’s the mistake full Preterism makes, confusing spiritual and physical reality in saying that Jesus has already returned. Which is true spiritually but not temporally (in time).

Anyway, that's as far as I've got on this line.

Blessings

Jeannette

Just bumping this up in case anyone has any comments. I would appreciate feedback, as this thinking is a bit new to me too :-)

Sis, my time's running out.

I'm going to save this thread and read it when I can see.

I just found it and talk about being behind time or did I find it when you posted it but couldn't see then either. Time warp annie.

Hey listen, I may be petering out here. I'm feeling sort of 'pyucky'. ha.

It's been nice meeting you, in case my battery runs out before I get a chance to tell you that.

I never bothered to set my settings to able to PM or reply to PMs cuz I don't like PMs anyways. I posted that here a loooong time ago. I think, other than email addresses, those things can be used for not so nice things or nice things that won't be said in public. But, if I drop off the planet here and you want to stay in touch, you can PM me your email addy but I can't PM you mine.

Not that I think I'll stay on line forever though. Haven't yet. It's draining and too hard to type what ya mean to say. Like now. Ha. Can you tell I'm tired ?!

Anyhow, I'm all for the fact that Jesus is yet to Come. Amen.

Take good care of you.
pooped me

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Sis, my time's running out.

I'm going to save this thread and read it when I can see.

I just found it and talk about being behind time or did I find it when you posted it but couldn't see then either. Time warp annie.

Hey listen, I may be petering out here. I'm feeling sort of 'pyucky'. ha.

It's been nice meeting you, in case my battery runs out before I get a chance to tell you that.

I never bothered to set my settings to able to PM or reply to PMs cuz I don't like PMs anyways. I posted that here a loooong time ago. I think, other than email addresses, those things can be used for not so nice things or nice things that won't be said in public. But, if I drop off the planet here and you want to stay in touch, you can PM me your email addy but I can't PM you mine.

Not that I think I'll stay on line forever though. Haven't yet. It's draining and too hard to type what ya mean to say. Like now. Ha. Can you tell I'm tired ?!

Anyhow, I'm all for the fact that Jesus is yet to Come. Amen.

Take good care of you.
pooped me

If I write when really tired I tend to take a sentence for a walk and lose it! I get more and more long-winded and ramble all over the place! You, it seems, just talk in bite-sized pieces that don't quite connect! :lol:

I love your style, and it's nice to get a reply - of any sort - to this post, at last! [EDIT, a small addition here... I did hope it would stimulate an interesting discussion, and even help us maybe understand a bit more on how God views things"]

I sometimes find a post that I want to reply to and have no time then - and find it gets lost because so many other threads and i can't remember the title or even the subject or who posted!

Blessings

Jeannette

LittleGift said

It was just as true before we were born as it is now,

... yet “we do NOT YET see all things under Him, (a temporal truth).”

Quite a while ago I realised I had been unable to [i]experience[/i] all I had believed into, because I had not taken the necessary practical steps to move into those truths in my own reality.

In my case, the most important thing I had to do after I 'realised' how hard I was working to hold together my theoretical faith with my practical faith, was twig that I'd never taken the time to identify with Christ's death.

Now that [i]was[/i] pivotal. I had been trying to live in resurrection life, without the necessary [i]reckoning[/i] of Romans 6.

Apparently, in the Hebrew OT, there is a past tense called the “prophetic perfect”. This speaks of future events AS IF THEY HAD ALREADY HEPPENED. This is expressing eternal truth. From God’s perspective. As far as He is concerned it HAS already happened!

2 Kings 3
16 and he saith, `Thus said Jehovah, Make this valley ditches--ditches;
17 for thus said Jehovah, Ye do not see wind, nor do ye see rain, and that valley is full of water, and [u]ye have drunk--ye, and your cattle, and your beasts[/u].
18 `And this hath been light in the eyes of Jehovah, and [u]he hath given Moab into your hand[/u],
19 and [u]ye have smitten every fenced city[/u], and every choice city, and every good tree ye cause to fall, and all fountains of waters ye stop, and every good portion ye mar with stones.'

At this present time certain eternal truths are also true in the here and now, others are not.

Having thought about this over some years, since the Lord gave me a revelation of 'for ever and ever and ever and ever... ' I've realised that no matter how true truth is in eternity, we can fail to let that truth make an impact on our individual lives to the extent that it could if we were less fearful, less unbelieving, less carnal... etc... I'm sure the list could go on.

In fact, the less objective we are about how much truth we have grasped and the more we press into truth as if there is [u]no[/u] [i]tomorrow[/i] - the better!

dorcas wrote:
LittleGift said

It was just as true before we were born as it is now,

... yet “we do NOT YET see all things under Him, (a temporal truth).”

I think the pivotal point of the Christian faith is in understanding the spiritual truth and trusting its reality so much as to put the power of our body into walking it out in real time.

Quite a while ago I realised I had been unable to [i]experience[/i] all I had believed into, because I had not taken the necessary practical steps to move into those truths in my own reality.

In my case, the most important thing I had to do after I 'realised' how hard I was working to hold together my theoretical faith with my practical faith, was twig that I'd never taken the time to identify with Christ's death.

Now that [i]was[/i] pivotal. I had been trying to live in resurrection life, without the necessary [i]reckoning[/i] of Romans 6.

Apparently, in the Hebrew OT, there is a past tense called the “prophetic perfect”. This speaks of future events AS IF THEY HAD ALREADY HEPPENED. This is expressing eternal truth. From God’s perspective. As far as He is concerned it HAS already happened!

A good place to find this, is Young's Literal Translation. Here's an example, I think... (Bear in mind I can't check this up in Hebrew, but it struck me when I came across it, as making prophecy a whole lot more believable, and, that true prophets would have this sense of the future having been accomplished already, which only their interface with the Eternal (God) could give them.)

I especially like, "interface with the Eternal". Wow![/color]

2 Kings 3
16 and he saith, `Thus said Jehovah, Make this valley ditches--ditches;
17 for thus said Jehovah, Ye do not see wind, nor do ye see rain, and that valley is full of water, and [u]ye have drunk--ye, and your cattle, and your beasts[/u].
18 `And this hath been light in the eyes of Jehovah, and [u]he hath given Moab into your hand[/u],
19 and [u]ye have smitten every fenced city[/u], and every choice city, and every good tree ye cause to fall, and all fountains of waters ye stop, and every good portion ye mar with stones.'

At this present time certain eternal truths are also true in the here and now, others are not.

I don't think you mean they are not true in eternity, but in [u]time[/u]....?

Which is one of the things that makes eschatology (study of the "Last Days) a difficult subject![/color]

Having thought about this over some years, since the Lord gave me a revelation of 'for ever and ever and ever and ever... ' I've realised that no matter how true truth is in eternity, we can fail to let that truth make an impact on our individual lives to the extent that it could if we were less fearful, less unbelieving, less carnal... etc... I'm sure the list could go on.

In fact, the less objective we are about how much truth we have grasped and the more we press into truth as if there is [u]no[/u] [i]tomorrow[/i] - the better!

My personal struggle has been that of "entering into His rest" instead of trying (and failing) to do it myself! As it says, "[i]the works were finished from the foundation of the world[/i]" (Hebrews 4:3) but we have to enter into the good of them.

A Biblical example springs to mind. An angel came to Gideon and said, "The Lord is with you, [i]you mighty man of valour[/i]!" But Gideon was skulking in a wine press at the time, trying to thresh wheat out of sight of enemy raiding parties.

Not quite the usual idea of a "mighty man of valour"!

Or a NT example was Jesus calling unstable, impulsive Peter, "Rocky". On the surface, it sounds like a sort of joke, like "Little John" in the Robin Hood story.

But the Lord sees what we will become, and what we already ARE in Him.

Blessings

jeannette [/color]

LittleGift said

we need a revelation of the finished work of Christ.

But before that, I was deeply encouraged by the promises in 'He is able to save to the uttermost', and had generally thrown myself on Him for this, many times, as I had a greater and greater revelation of how far away I was.

Perhaps it should read [i][u]from[/u] the uttermost[/i]. ;-)

Ah! This matter of 'becoming' is something which Leanne Payne addresses in her first major book 'The Healing Presence'. She quotes the ten lepers who were healed; [i][b]going[/b][/i], they were healed - and uses this to justify her experience and advice to others, to not imagine we must be 'perfect' before we begin to serve Him. Graciously, He takes us as we are, and uses us, through which we [i]become[/i] - in Him.