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The Sin of Anger

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ginnyrose Jun 7, 2007

Brothers and Sisters,

I have a question for you, one whose answer seems so elusive to us. Perhaps someone here on this forum is skilled in this areaa who could come alongside with words of wisdom?

The question: How do you deal with an angry person?

Usually when someone has this problem, you may steer clear of them, keep your distance, or whatever. But in my case these are no possibilities: this person is too close to us. My DH does not know either. It is as though the lion roared and we are paralyzed. This person is very religious and if you were to confront her, she might even admit it and be ever so meek and apologize. It is as though she is two different persons. And neither one bears any resemblance to the other. Anyhow, after apologizing she may be so very sweet, but you just give her some time and soon she will be off again. (This happened just recently.) Her sin of anger has offended young people and caused a lot of distress.

How do you handle a situation like this?

ginnyrose

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17293&forum=34

I'm sorry I can't post URLs properly.

Greg just posted this and it's wonderful.

We're all growing sis. Here and everywhere.

We're all praying for wisdom.

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007


Hi ginnyrose,

I note all you have said about this situation which you have been able to share.

My main response may not be what you expect, and I'm prepared for you to reject my testimony, but I hope it may, at least, draw on scripture to give you another perserpctive.

First. I simply want to share a few of my discoveries over the course of dealing with my own anger, over many years. My family took the approach that anger was wrong. it was never 'Why are you angry?', but 'Don't be angry', even if there was good cause to be angry and the adults in my life had caused it.

Ephesians 6:4
And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.


As we are made in the image of God, and He Himself has been angry many times already, and intends to pour out His wrath on unbelievers, we know that [i]being angry[/i], is not, of itself, sinful.

What I think you are referring to by your title, is the damage caused by misplaced anger which overflows inappropriately in various ways.

The inappropriateness is not only about the quantity of anger, or its free expression, but whether it is unloaded on people who had no part in its causation, who may resent being implicated or hurt or frightened, or also rendereed speechless, or angered by unreasonable outbursts.

My healing from suppressed anger, came in several ways. First, I read and heard about suppressed anger. I had so contained mine, that I was totally unaware I was concealing it even from myself. This is not to say I was not angry at times, but those were the overflows of an abundant heart, and I burned in them.

Coming from a Christian background, I was completely sure that anger was 'wrong' until I began to think about what the Bible said about it. Firstly, I realised it was God-like to be angry.

Ephesians 4:26
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:


It is clear from this verse that it is ok to be angry within limits.

I would add that the anger which burns the longest is God's anger, and righteous indignation may be a component of 'reasonable' anger, which may be acknowledged in the mix.

Causes of anger cannot be ignored, denied or minismised, without the angry person being compelled to continue attempting to contain their anger, to their further detriment.


Here is one Godly reason for anger.

Numbers 25:11\t
Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in [u]my jealousy[/u].

I suggest it's likely the same mechanism works in humans. Can this sort of provokation be avoided?


The next verse shows that 'wrath' can pass a point of no return.

2 Chron 36:16
But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, [u]until the wrath of the LORD arose[/u] against his people, till [i]there was[/i] no remedy.

{remedy: Heb. healing}

(contd)

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007


(contd)

It is also important to note that His jealousy is particularly aroused against His [u]own[/u] people - the ones with whom He has a relationship, desires a relationship and intends to maintain that relationship in the condition He esteems it should be enjoyed.... ie those closest to Him. Likewise, we tend to be our most openly irritable and irritated with those we know best.

I think the possibility of this has to be acknowledged. If God Himself can be so angry there is no remedy but the expression of it, then finite humans may well, also, fail to contain theirs.

But, the expression of anger brings a kind of comfort to the person who was angry:

Esther 2:1
After these things, [u]when the wrath of king Ahasuerus was appeased[/u], he remembered Vashti...


Here, God does not intend to hold back His wrath...

Ezekiel 5:13
Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, [u]and I will be comforted[/u]: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken [i]it[/i] in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.

Ezekiel 13:15
Thus will I accomplish My wrath on the wall ...

[accomplish = complete, or spend]


Of course, we are told not to take revenge into our own hands, in Romans 12:19, but to leave room for God to avenge us. This strongly implies that it is reasonable to be angry, and it is balanced against Romans 13:4. which gives permission for 'wrath' to be executed on God's behalf, on evil-doers.


It is also worth accepting the radical truth that the expression of God's anger also consoles Him somewhat, as king Ahasuerus also was consoled. To deny this, is to misread the angry person in your life, who may be so angry all the time, that the only time they can be calm, is by giving themself permission to express their anger also, like a valve in a pressure cooker. Indeed, this is what they may feel like, if the cause(s) of their anger have never been acknowledged.

My anger was related to having been humiliated, way back and many times. One's natural instinct to spontaneously right oneself after such incidents, draws on an instinctive pride to keep trying to be ok - which God Himself has given us. He has also given us the ability to go numb, when internalised pain has been so longstanding that it is not possible to retiain knowledge of it consciously, without losing one's mind. Naturally (again), one strives for sanity, and He graciously permits this choice.

It is a huge problem for angry people, who have long lost any way of defining the cause of their anger, to find themself in Christian circles where there is a culture of condemning anger [i]per se[/i]. In this case, it will [i]never[/i] be ok for them to remember - the stage which for me came [i]after[/i] the numbness had begun to thaw out. It is true that I had, by then, experienced a huge reduction in external pressures, such that internal pressures could begin to draw attention to themselves.


This is interesting:

Ecclesiast. 7:3
Sorrow [i]is[/i] better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better[/u].

{Sorrow: or, Anger}

In a nutshell, I'm suggesting there is something important beyond the anger itself, such as a provokation to understand. It may be like the thorn in the lion's paw, but buried deep inside.

I also know there can be evil spirits which show themselves in outbursts of unreaonable anger, which may not be related to inner wounds. But if there [i]are[/i] inner wounds, then such spirits may also have a foothold in the life and will lose this foothold if the internal pain is addressed.

However, like the thorn in the paw, approaching it in such a way as to cause no more pain may require not only courage and patience, but spiritual insight and faith that God is leading and can bring healing. And, a significant network of practical support both for those who help, and for the person who needs the help, may be needed.

It would be tempting to make the anger the centre of attention, and it must be, to some extent, initially; but while a certain level of control may be required from the angry person - such as to develop anger management techniques for the benefit of those who must endure the outbursts - I believe this should not be overlaid with condemnation for their underlying anger.

It is probably going to be a work of the art of not shouting back, to help the person to hear themselves behaving unreasonably.

It is a different challenge, to create an enviroment in which all steps have been take to protect the vulnerable from further hurt (by the anger), at the same time as maintaining enough pressure for the person to begin to hear how she sounds to others.

For myself, once I'd realised just how much anger I was carrying around all the time, it was only a matter of time before I would have to give it to the Lord. This giving took some courage, but by then I was desperate because I couldn't keep holding it in.

But, I had been quite shocked at this discovery about myself. I had had no idea I was [i]complicit[/i] in carrying this much anger - let alone the pain of containing it!

On the day that I gave it to the Lord, a truly miraculous process began, in which I could feel that He was doing something in my depths, but I was silenced by being able to 'feel' it all at the same time. Slowly, over a period of several hours, He took it all, and I was free. Now (it turned out), I could respond with a normal level of appropriately directed displeasure when this was necessary, and the rest of the time I was in peace. There were other healings to come, also, but not from anger any more.


I think the main thing I would like you to take from these posts, is that unless there is an acceptance that anger is a natural response in certain situations, [u]given by God as part of human make-up[/u], any ways of addressing [i]causes[/i] of anger meanningfuly, remain out of reach.

There [i]are[/i] ways of dealing with angry people, beginning with giving permission for them to be angry.... but [i]not[/i] to be angry the way they have expressed it hitherto which is undermining to their testimony and socially unacceptable by any standard.

There is, though, some safety for some people in laying their anger on others - that is, in turning it outwards - because it enables the demonstrated amount of anger to be assessed.

Whereas, if it is all turned inwards, the severity of the need may be both invisible and ignorable, including being damaging to the one carrying it, and encouraging also, [i]their denial[/i].

D
dohzman Jun 7, 2007

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

R
roadsign Jun 7, 2007

How do you deal with an angry person?

Ginnyrose, It’s tempting to play internet “shrink” on someone we know nothing about and who cannot partake in the discussion. So I will avoid that.

I find it interesting that God puts people in our lives who we can’t shake out. We can’t avoid them. They are thorns in the side. From my own experience over the years, I have come to believe that the actual person God wishes to deal with is MYSELF. He uses the thorns to soften me, change me, and give me a better perspective of his ways. So prayer would be a good starting place – not only for the “problem person”, but also for yourself – to be open to what God may be wishing to show you.

Since anger of the nature you describe likely has its origin many sundowns ago, and is lost to the person trapped in it, you can do little to fix the person. It’s not about something that happened this morning which you could have addressed. And it’s most likely not related to you at all. So keep your responses soft and gentle.

You can, however, set some limits in your relationship. You don’t have to allow yourself to be the whipping post. It is fair to gently share how YOU feel when those episodes occur - without any accusational overtones. (wait till the air is calm, though) I see nothing wrong with adding that you may need to step away during those times, because it troubles YOU.

Above all commit this person to prayer. That is perhaps the best gift you can give that person. God is the best therapist/healer around.

God bless you Ginnyrose, and may he give you a strength and courage to love, free from fear.

Some years ago I wrote [url=http://www.thewayback.net/articles/ANGER/title.htm]Why are you Angry?[/url] really for my own sake. As I browse through it, I see nothing too helpful to you, but just perhaps there may be a crumb or two.


Diane

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007

Dohzman, you are misapplying this verse, I believe.

I will hi-lite the key part of that verse:

Rom 16:17 [i]Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses [b]contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned[/b]; and avoid them.[/i]

Ginny has told us about a person who can not control their anger, but said nothing about her causing offenses contrary to correct doctrine.

Offenses spoken of in scripture are not "oh, they offended me" like we think of today. Offenses are things that cause people to stumble, or turn away from the truth.

This is not what this situation is about.

Krispy

G
ginnyrose Jun 7, 2007

Grannie,

Thanks for posting that link. I will listen to it.

Dorcas,

You made some very good points about anger, e.g., God gets angry at sin. The Bible also tells us to be angry and sin not. I understand this type of anger. Our sense of justice has been violated and so we respond but do not sin in your response.

You also mentioned about the possibility of something that may have happened in the past which caused severe woundedness and now this person is acting out her anger on others. This is a very real possibility. Some of us have often talked about this and wonder.

I have confronted her already about her attitudes and all that did was unleash a stream of anger, rage, the like one never desires to ever hear and wants to flee from. In fact, you cannot even reason with her when she is angry! It is impossible! Fortunately, she does not get violent physically, but her words are very hurtful and abusive. And when one does what dohzman suggested, she gets angry again. In other words she wants to be close to people and when her angry mood strikes she wants to have the privilege to hurt people without suffering the consequences and you are supposed to take it without any reactions.

Then you also have the sin of lying to deal with. When this person gets in a rage, lies will spew forth. But these lies are not said only while in a rage, but otherwise as well. While this person is always very careful about being accurate - and is - there are areas in her life she will lie about, things that others know to be otherwise because they have been witnesses.

I sense there is a problem of demonic possession, but I do not want to get involved in it exorcism - this is a man's job. And would you know, only two males that I know of have ever seen a demonstration of her anger. Just recently a larger body of people saw it - for the very first time. Up to this point, all they had to go by was what a few females have been saying. It was as though they did not believe us, or rather found it hard to do so because she is always so sweet when they come around. Yet the act that was witnessed recently was a mild form of it.

So there you have it!

Now I need to listen to the sermon Grannie suggested. In the meantime if there are any more words of wisdom out there, please share. Or, if you want you may PM me.

Thanks Annie, Dorcas, dohzman for your responses...

ginnyrose

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007

Hi ginnyrose,
I like your attitude of being open to other's posts. I liked all the posts - I liked Diane's too.

You put a new light on a subject about "this woman".

If it had just been anger --- that is something I think was explained above by Greg's post from Zac Poonen and the replies above --- except that the only thing that was left-out was "physical causes". There are 'many' diseases that cause folks to go off in not the nicest ways - voice of experience on that one. Having worked with folks in that area and experienced it first hand from health problems and only GOD can heal those type things.

But now you've added "lying".

That changes the whole picture and 'that' needs to be addressed.

Anger is one thing --- Lying is the worst sin I believe and once someone lies - I truly feel that person needs to be spoken to face to face.
Or at least written to, if there's a geographical distance between folks.

Whomever it is, I think Jesus would have us to speak this or any fellow 'christian', if we see them in such a way as you see this woman.
Matthew talks about going to them first yourself, then take two, etc..


Praying.

D
dohzman Jun 7, 2007

There's a whole lot more there than a surface reading. Doctrine thats godly is lived out in life, scripture like a good and gentle spirit .... or the meek will.... or a soft answer.... if what we profess doesn't condition all we say and do "in" life than its vain and empty and the God of All grace can not save us from anything. If an individuals misconduct causes another to turn away from the faith than they have lived thier doctrine falsely. There is a possibility that this individual with the anger problem has just never been taught proper ethical christianity. In context those who went with thier belly (the verses following) are individuals who are controled by thier animal instincts and Paul said to rebuke them sharply---Titus 1:12-14. On the surface it may appear out of context but just think about it prayerfully, read some of the early writtings and you'll see where I'm coming from. If one excuses anger than lust lieing fornication and all manner of sins needs to be made allowances for. Anger can also be the flower of an even bigger root like bitterness, envy or strife. So I said that to say this: correct doctrine is lived doctrine, doctrine is simply teaching. So lets all be angry and sin not, or not let the sun go down on our wrath or the wrath of....fill in the name.... works not the righteousness of God, get my drift? That's doctrine.

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007

Just wanted to post your verses brother in their surrounding context first, but came on because I remembered something that I was 'supposed' to email ginnyrose 'last year'. :-?

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.


ginnyrose, you asked last year for that "Christmas Story" I had written for my family and I never emailed it to you.

If you want you could PM your addy to me again.
I can't reply to PMs though.

Blessings.

sermonindex Jun 7, 2007

Ya know, in the 5 years I've had a computer, I've only been on line a total of 2 1/2 of those years. I took two 1-year breaks and one 6 month break.

I hate complaining about health stuff - but I'm 80% bedbound cuz I don't have a recliner - but I can't use the computer from there - so I gotta get up and sit at the desk.
Being on the computer wears me down and flares the pain, heart, etc. a lot, but for the 5 years that I've been basically homebound - it's a nice diversion from pain and so on, to be on the computer. The only problem is, I pay for the diversion more than if I just use other diversions, like just reading or listening to sermons, etc.. I don't like T.V. so after a while of this 'stuff' for this long ... I'm always looking for new diversions to keep my mind off of how I feel and any new health problems that are new to me. :-?

But, I just got off the computer a while ago and started thinking about this and other conversations we've had today on other threads and I thought .... maybe I was being too hard on that person you're talking about ginnyrose. I'd 'prefer' to not think the worse first ... so what came to mind while reclining and reading the Word was ... maybe there could be a way, a gentle way to suggest she "talk to somebody" ... as in a very Biblical Christian Counselor.
They're out there. Hard to find, but the ones that have a degree but stay strictly Bible are very helpful. It's hard to judge a person through just reading posts - so I thought, having read enough psych stuff for most of my life, that she may be hurting on the inside somewheres. I know also that TBIs (traumatic brain injuries) and other such things, can affect folks in strange ways too. Many of our soldiers are coming back with those and PTSD, even high blood pressure and diabetes does things to folks reactions. She may be healthy physically, but a counselor may help her pin point her triggers. How to help and not hurt further is what I think we're all trying to learn.

It's so so very hard to know when to show mercy and when to correct and How. Tough going.
Praying.

Have a great day anyhows.

G
ginnyrose Jun 8, 2007

dohzman,

I agree with you.

Another aspect of this issue is that when you are good frineds with people who allow sin to reign in their lives is that it will infect their friends as well. I see this happening in the case of the woman I was describing. She has a close friend and while this friend does not appreciate what she does, we are seeing that gradually she is becoming like her! Now that is scary!

If one excuses anger, than lust, lying, fornication and all manner of sins needs to be made allowances for.

I have often thought about this very thing. And why is it that people are not as horrified with this sin of anger as they are of fornication or adultry? Is it because it hits too close to home? The Scriptures tell us those who do these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Now this is frightening. It should put some holy fear in a body....

ginnyrose

sermonindex Jun 8, 2007

ginnyrose, I'm very-very sorry.

Still praying.
In His Love ~ Annie

Edited.

sermonindex Jun 8, 2007

ginnyrose, what I wanted to say is, the posts on here from the others are good and I tried too.

Hope you understand, now that I'm more awake and maybe understand some too, I think.

It's just hard for us not knowing the lady.

God's Grace to you.
In His Love and Grace.

G
ginnyrose Jun 8, 2007

Grannie wrote:

Judging, gossiping, party-spirit, self-righteousness ... not dealing with issues like you've brought up here in a Biblical fashion as mentioned before from Matthew.

I must be missing something. Could you explain it better?

In case you wonder, we did try the Biblical method as instructed in Matthew 18, but there were too many who would not believe and this person is such a charmer it makes the rest of us look like liars! Actually, if this is what they believe, they should excommunicate us!

Am I getting what you are trying to say?

ginnyrose

sermonindex Jun 8, 2007

Ginnyrose,

Bless your heart, I think you may understand when you get my email.

Again, I'm sorry that I thought your response made me think you hadn't tried those things yet.

I pray we do see a miracle happen for this person you're burdened about.

I posted that before I got your PM.

Lord Bless you and help.
Annie


edit: but ya didn't quote my whole post. ;-)

G
ginnyrose Jun 9, 2007

Grannie wrote:

I pray we do see a miracle happen for this person you're burdened about.

The latest development in this case is that she is being confronted by a very aggressive person for the first time ever. He tells her she will not get into heaven unless she repents of her attitudes. This will leave her in a stew, but until recently, people were afraid of this because she would take her anger out on her husband and, bless his heart, he has suffered enough abuse at her hand (he is now deceased). So perhaps we are beginning to see God answer some old prayers. So keep on praying...if and when a break-though occurs, I will share that info.

ginnyrose

sermonindex Jun 9, 2007


ginnyrose said

You also mentioned about the possibility of something that may have happened in the past which caused severe woundedness and now this person is acting out her anger on others. This is a very real possibility. Some of us have often talked about this and wonder.

I have confronted her already about her attitudes and all that did was unleash a stream of anger, rage, the like one never desires to ever hear and wants to flee from. In fact, you cannot even reason with her when she is angry! It is impossible! Fortunately, she does not get violent physically, but her words are very hurtful and abusive. And when one does what dohzman suggested, she gets angry again. In other words she wants to be close to people and when her angry mood strikes she wants to have the privilege to hurt people without suffering the consequences and you are supposed to take it without any reactions.

Hi ginnyrose,

I note what you mention about the lady's ability to lie but it is the paragraphs above I wish to address.

[i][b]If[/i][/b] she has a longstanding inner woundedness, 'confront'ing her is not the way forward - except to confirm there is something she knows about which terrifies her, or, that the reactions she gives in certain situations are being triggered at a more subconscious level.

It is a mistake to think that she knows what is wrong with her, or that she has an objective way of understanding how her behaviour reaches others.

I suspect you feel her behaviour is so obviously unreasonable, that she [i][b]must[/i][/b] know, but you would be making an assumption, if so.

This situation is deep and complicated. Yes, prayer will help, of course. But, I believe someone who has access to her needs a professional approach to her needs, not only the spiritual one, in that there are things which should and should not be broached by another than herself. She should be the person to feel [i]so[/i] put at ease that she can begin to unpack any inner trauma at her own pace. I'm not sure where this leaves her 'ministry', but I can testify that there [i]are[/i] things which she could 'do' for the Lord, which would make her less vulnerable to be under so much internal pressure, that she loses her composure as often as presently.

Might I ask how old this lady is, if you know?

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