Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

Hope this is a better title and If I had a wrong Spirit I sincerely appologize!

I understand that we are not to curse our leaders, this is overwhelmingly scriptural. I do take issue to the fact that once someone turns into a leader and they profess to be a Christian that they are untouchable to reproof and rebuke!

If we are unable, then John the Baptist should not have been so well spoken of by our LORD. There should have been some rebuke or comment that he died in vain. But he rebuked the king and was jailed and killed for it. Just one of a long line of men in the bible that rebuked the leader including Elijah and Elisha.

How about if the leader is a murderer or adulterous or liar or whatever else that is sinful? Are we not permitted to say anything at all? Or how about if they are a Christian in name only?

Does James 5:19-20 apply? "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." Or the other scriptures on accountability?

Now in this forum I realize I wasn't rebuking a person to their face. I'd accept the chance. Was I speaking evil? Or speaking truth? My intent wasn't slander (which is speaking falsely) or gossip.

Like to hear how we balance not speaking ill of our leaders and reproof.

Hello NLONG,

I certainly say a resounding YES!!!!

2 Timothy 4:2-5 tells us to do just this.

BUT... first and foremost, we must be absolutely certain that the mote has been completely removed from our eyes (Matthew 7:1-5). By doing this, we also conform to John 7:24.

With all the false doctrine and apostasy going on in virtually every church in America... it is a good idea to start seeing who will come out and stand against the ones who cling to the 4 major pillars of apostate Christianity:

1. Unconditional eternal security (Once saved always saved).

2. Tithing

3. The pre-tribulation rapture of the church

4. Israel still being God's chosen people( having a separate covenant with The Father outside of the acceptance of the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ)

The Scriptures tell of a different truth than the fairy tales of the modern "church".

By the way... since when did going to "church" consist of habitating a building as opposed to gathering with like-minded believers and just talking about Jesus and witnessing to one another? As I remember, this is what that first church did... you know, The Apostles.

Anyhow, enough for now.

May The Lord Jesus Christ bless and preserve you all...

Eldalon

Paul Rebuke Peter

Galatians 2:11-21
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

1Ti 5:17 - Show Context
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

And to honour your leaders
this is a fantastic sermon by Carter Conlon
[url=http://www.timeforrenewal.com/wmedia/040118-1_CC.asx]Carter Conlon on Spiritual Authority[/url]

eldalon wrote:
May The Lord Jesus Christ bless and preserve you all..

Not trying to evoke anger:
But from the first part of your thread it doesn't sound like he can....

That is a strong set of pillars, I hope we can carry this over civilly to a whole new thread
______

I will now prophecy:
(This thread will soon be locked, just as the Hillary one)

Please don't hijack this thread. BTW is there a record for how many successive locked threads in a row?

Thanks for all who've contributed! I'm not trying to justify speaking against rulers. Just trying to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Like to hear how we balance not speaking ill of our leaders and reproof.

NLONG,
Let me say first that I am not directing this statement at you.
There is a spirit in the world today and sad to say the church as well that seems to hold no respect for those in positions of leadership or authority. This lack of respect spans the whole gamut from children through elderly adults. We see it in toddlers and see parents actually teaching their children disrespect by laughing at them when they act disrespectful. We have become a very irreverent society and though we may justify our motives for being such they are not biblical.

Now there are leaders in the church and there are leaders in the world, there are also brothers and sisters in the Lord so when you talk of reproof you need to specify which you are talking about.
Paul says this about a leader in the church:
Acts 23:5
Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. Exodus 22:28

When you speak of reproof are you in a position that gives you authority to rebuke.
1 Tim. 5:1
Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Jesus says it like this:
Matthew 23:1-3
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: [3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

You see the problem today is so many feel they have this authority to reprove and if they disagree with a person in authority they speak against them and this is what we are warned against doing.

Now secular leaders are by their position of authority ordained of God and we are warned not to speak evil of them.
Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Now here we must ask the question unless these powers are asking us to do something that is against the Word of God, what gives us the authority to not be in subjection or to reprove them because we may disagree with their policy or standard of morals, remember the higher powers that the word speaks of were not for the most part followers of the Lord. We must be careful and not be self willed in our haste to reprove.

2 Peter 2:10-11
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

I would suggest we pray for those in authority and if we are not in a position to reprove then we leave it to those who are, if you are in the position then I would approach it as one who will receive greater condemnation.
James 3:1
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi everyone.

Would like to pick up briefly on something pastorfrin shared...

"We must be careful and not be self willed in our haste to reprove."

Thinking of John the Baptist, as he was mentioned before, this would seem to apply; he spoke with and of the authority of God.

And taking that, I think of what the Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660033]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.[/color][/b]

Chris

Ephesians 5:3-20: "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, F13 that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit* is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light." 15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil. "

As a christian, I am to "expose the unfruitful works of darkness" and "walk as a child of light" the fruit of the Spirit thereof being "goodness, righteousness, and truth." I'll admit my comments were fairly fleshly remarks. For that I've appologized. However, I don't believe I was speaking evil, but exposing truth. Exactly what John the Baptist did. There's nothing in this Ephesians passage that says you can expose darkness, except if its your rulers.

Perhaps we differ so much because you may have a broader or narrower definition of evil speaking. The same exists for many biblical concepts. How about love? God says in Hebrews that everyone he loves he chastens and scourges. Now that's God's heart, not man's. Perhaps to me a scourging is not loving. It's what our Lord suffered for me. But, to God it's counted as essential to being His son.

Hebrews 12:6-8 "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

I agree that we should not speak evil. Titus 3:2 tells us to "speak evil of no man." This is regardless of rulers.
EDIT: By today's standards maybe even Jesus was an evil speaker in his "get thee behind me Satan" rebuke to Peter.

Please expound on this idea of authority to reproove. I'm not sure I've encountered this idea. Though, I guess I don't see in scripture the whole priest-layman system that we have today. I think it's a fraud. Yes, we are to have elders and such, but they are to be "ruling" servants not tyrants (like we have so much today). Peter says we are all kings and priests.

Further, I have a scriptural command if my brother sins against me, I am to rebuke him, if he repents, I am to forgive. That says nothing of station.

If I am a Christian, then I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. If I have that, then what else do I need in the way of authority?

Also, what made John the Baptist great? By that I mean any greater than any of us. He wasn't superman. Yet, we have a tendency to exalt biblical figures as untouchables. Did they accomplish exceptional things? Yes, but were they ordinary men? Yes. What connects these two truths? Ordinary men have the power to do extraordinary by faith in an extraordinary, living, Almighty God.

Sorry about paraphrased scripture, I don't have time to look them up, but I think you can understand.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed here. It's challenged me and my walk with the Lord!

Blessings!

GRANNIEANNIE -- Yes, Peter and Paul another great example.

I've been thinking alot about this in the last couple days. It seems today people are calling for accountability, accountability and more accountability. However, when they are held accountable (or when others see us hold them accountable) often what we get in return in an angry fleshly response--nothing like meekness. I'm not sure where it comes from. I've been rebuked several times with similar results. However, when my anger quickly resolved I found that it was for my greatest benefit. I found repentance and a closer walk with Our Lord. Perhaps its a product of our fiercly independent culture mixed with a large dose of pride.

Often we look at reproof and say that person is being judgmental. However, I think it is with great error we do this (if it is done in a spirit of love). For what is the goal of reproof? To bring a person who is filled with sin into a right relationship with God, to walk as Jesus walked and perhaps eternal judgment (James 5:20).

Any man that I allowed to lead me would be positionally between me and The Head of the Body. We of the Body need rebuke and praise and edifying from each part of The Body Of Christ and the orderly working inside the Body through members guided by the Holy Spirit in each of us is accepted. But always seat the ones who still have a look of pride and a worldly title to back it up in a lower seat.
Eddie

If I may add anything to what has been said, I would say that in the case of a leader that has done somthing wrong, like preaching somthing that clearly contradicts the word of God, then by the authority of God and of his word you may rebuke him.
But I have learned that whenever a person is rebukeing sombody else, the rebuker should do it with Love and compassion;and be willing to show that other person with passience what he/she has done wrong. Just to add my view on the topic.