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Theology

Sinners must DO something to be saved!

sermonindex Jun 22, 2007

Some believe that sinners must not, and cannot do anything to be saved, that there cannot be any preconditions for salvation, but that salvation is unconditional to all those who God wants to save. And that it is only God who does something in salvation, while man does nothing to be saved.

If sinners aren't to do anything to be saved, why should we go and tell them to do something? ie repent and believe. If they aren't suppose to do anything to be saved, let's not tell them to do anything.

If God does all the repenting and believing for them, let's persuade God and not men.

God is not responsible for impenitance!! If God makes people repent, which forcing they cannot resist, then impenitance must be because of God!!

If all who repent, repent because God forces them, and not everyone repents, then God does not will that all men should come to repentance!! (And that is a very slanderous and dangerous accusation since it's a flat contradiction of the explicit teaching of scripture)

Some believe that sinners must not, and cannot do anything to be saved, that there cannot be any preconditions for salvation, but that salvation is unconditional to all those who God wants to save. And that it is only God who does something in salvation, while man does nothing to be saved.

If sinners aren't to do anything to be saved, why should we go and tell them to do something? ie repent and believe. If they aren't suppose to do anything to be saved, let's not tell them to do anything.

If God does all the repenting and believing for them, let's persuade God and not men.

God is not responsible for impenitance!! If God makes people repent, which forcing they cannot resist, then impenitance must be because of God!!

If all who repent, repent because God forces them, and not everyone repents, then God does not will that all men should come to repentance!! (And that is a very slanderous and dangerous accusation since it's a flat contradiction of the explicit teaching of scripture)

But the truth is, sinners must do something to be saved!! And if they are not saved, it is because they failed to do something! i.e. repent and believe.

[b]John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the Apostle Peter, and the Apostle Paul all believed that sinners must do something to be saved!!![/b]

[b]John the Baptists example:[/b]

After preaching eternal judgment, warning of hell-fire, John was asked by sinners, "what must we do?" And did John respond with, "You can't do anything!"? No!

Lu 3:12-14 - Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, [b]what shall we [u]do[/u][/b]? And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And [b]what shall we [u]do[/u][/b]? And he said unto them, [b]Do[/b] violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

[i](In other words, repent!)[/i]

[b]Jesus' example:[/b]

When Jesus was asked, "what must I do" did he answer with "nothing"??

Joh 6:28-29 - Then said they unto him, What shall we [b][u]do[/u][/b], that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye [b][u]believe[/u][/b] on him whom he hath sent.

Here too we see how Jesus responded to the same exact question, "What must I do to be saved?"

Mt 19:16 - And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I [b][u]do[/u], that I may have eternal life[/b]?

Mr 10:17 - And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I [b][u]do[/u] that I may inherit eternal life[/b]?

Lu 18:18 - And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I [b][u]do[/u] to inherit eternal life?[/b]

Lu 10:25 - And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I [b][u]do[/u] to inherit eternal life[/b]?

Lu 10:28 - And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this [b][u]do[/u], and thou shalt live[/b].

Jesus answered with the commandments "do not___ do not___ do not___" which is the essence of repentance! True repentance is when you "do not" that which you ought not to do.

[b]Peters example:[/b]

When Peter was asked, "what shall we do?" Did he answer with "nothing"??

Ac 2:37-38 - Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we [u][b]do[/b][/u]? Then Peter said unto them, [u][b]Repent[/b][/u], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[b]Pauls example:[/b]

When Paul was asked, "what must I do to be saved?" how did Paul respond? Paul did not say, "You can't do anything to be saved!"

Ac 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I [u][b]do to be saved[/b][/u]? And they said, [u][b]Believe[/b][/u] on the [u][b]Lord[/b][/u] Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And so, in order to be saved, sinners [b]DO[/b] need to repent and believe.

Also see:

Mt 5:6 - Blessed are they which [b]do[/b] hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Mt 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that [b]doeth[/b] the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 - For whosoever shall [b]do[/b] the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mr 3:35 - For whosoever shall [b]do[/b] the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Lu 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and [b]do not [/b]the things which I say?

Lu 8:21 - And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and [b]do[/b] it.

Joh 13:15 - For I have given you an example, that ye should [b]do[/b] as I have done to you.

Joh 13:17 - If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye [b]do[/b] them.

Joh 15:14 - Ye are my friends, if ye [b]do[/b] whatsoever I command you.

And so the scriptures clearly teach, sinners must do something to be saved! They do have to repent or else they cannot be saved. And they do have to believe or else they cannot be saved.

The truth is,[b] sinners must do something to be saved[/b]!! And if they are not saved, it is because they failed to do something! i.e. repent and believe.

[b]John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the Apostle Peter, and the Apostle Paul all believed that sinners must do something to be saved!!![/b]

[b]John the Baptists example:[/b]

After preaching eternal judgment, warning of hell-fire, John was asked by sinners, "what must we do?" And did John respond with, "You can't do anything!"? No!

Lu 3:12-14 - Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, [b]what shall we [u]do[/u][/b]? And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And [b]what shall we [u]do[/u][/b]? And he said unto them, [b]Do[/b] violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

[i](In other words, repent!)[/i]

[b]Jesus' example:[/b]

When Jesus was asked, "what must I do" did he answer with "nothing"??

Joh 6:28-29 - Then said they unto him, What shall we [b][u]do[/u][/b], that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye [b][u]believe[/u][/b] on him whom he hath sent.

Here too we see how Jesus responded to the same exact question, "What must I do to be saved?"

Mt 19:16 - And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I [b][u]do[/u], that I may have eternal life[/b]?

Mr 10:17 - And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I [b][u]do[/u] that I may inherit eternal life[/b]?

Lu 18:18 - And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I [b][u]do[/u] to inherit eternal life?[/b]

Lu 10:25 - And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I [b][u]do[/u] to inherit eternal life[/b]?

Lu 10:28 - And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this [b][u]do[/u], and thou shalt live[/b].

Jesus answered with the commandments "do not___ do not___ do not___" which is the essence of repentance! True repentance is when you "do not" that which you ought not to do.

[b]Peters example:[/b]

When Peter was asked, "what shall we do?" Did he answer with "nothing"??

Ac 2:37-38 - Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we [u][b]do[/b][/u]? Then Peter said unto them, [u][b]Repent[/b][/u], and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[b]Pauls example:[/b]

When Paul was asked, "what must I do to be saved?" how did Paul respond? Paul did not say, "You can't do anything to be saved!"

Ac 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I [u][b]do to be saved[/b][/u]? And they said, [u][b]Believe[/b][/u] on the [u][b]Lord[/b][/u] Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And so, in order to be saved, sinners [b]DO[/b] need to repent and believe.

Also see:

Mt 5:6 - Blessed are they which [b]do[/b] hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Mt 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that [b]doeth[/b] the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 12:50 - For whosoever shall [b]do[/b] the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mr 3:35 - For whosoever shall [b]do[/b] the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Lu 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and [b]do not [/b]the things which I say?

Lu 8:21 - And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and [b]do[/b] it.

Joh 13:15 - For I have given you an example, that ye should [b]do[/b] as I have done to you.

Joh 13:17 - If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye [b]do[/b] them.

Joh 15:14 - Ye are my friends, if ye [b]do[/b] whatsoever I command you.

And so the scriptures clearly teach, sinners must do something to be saved! They do have to repent or else they cannot be saved. And they do have to believe or else they cannot be saved.

L
LoveHim Jun 22, 2007

dear jesse,

i agree with you.. to receive Christ, one must believe on Him.. there is actions that we do, but they are not works.. works would constitute that we be paid for them, like wages..

romans 4:4-5 " Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

v5 but to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"

here, paul shows us that there is something we do to have faith accounted to us. he tells us to believe on Him. but believeing on Him is not a work, though it is something we must do.

just a thought..

G
Gammo Jun 22, 2007

Its not just believing, demons believe and tremble, you must have faith in the finished work of calvary, and repent.

L
LoveHim Jun 22, 2007

dear gammo,

exactly gammo, we're talking about a belief unto salvation, not just a belief in existence..

james says that faith without works is dead.. if someone has just the belief that God died and they never show the fruit of Christ working in their life, then they have a dead faith..

but true faith (accompanied by works) is something so totally different than a works gospel..

R
roaringlamb Jun 22, 2007

A man must be born again before he can believe. That is what Jesus is telling Nicodemas in John 3:3, "except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom." The word "see" means comprehend or discern. Cross reference this with what Paul says in 1 Corinthinas 2 about how the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit because they are foolishness to him. Soif the gospel is spiritual, then a natural man cannot understand it to respond to it.

Jesse I am glad that I do not have to hear your gospel, as it is all law and moralism. There is no hope, nothing of Christ's work to produce hope and peace, but rather an endless narcissistic view of ones' own works being the grounds of acceptance with God.

It is true that a sinner must believe the gospel, but the very point is that no sinner can believe the gospel apart from a work of God. "No man can come unto me except the Father which sent me draws him" John 6:44

Unfortunately the anger, the pies, the eggs etc are deserved not because you preach such a harsh message, but because you basically backhand people with laws and morals that even you cannot keep, and never tell them about Christ.

Preach Christ and Him crucified, that will cause enough trouble all on its own.

Perhaps I am being too stern, but time and time again, you boast of how crowds are angry with you, and that you are like Paul and the apostles. But your message has no grace, it is all law and no gospel at all because you have blurred the lines of the two. Do not forget brother there is not just Mount Sinai, but there is a Mount Zion which speaks better things.

P
PaulWest Jun 22, 2007

Brother Roaringlamb, your reply here is exceptional. I admire your wisdom and fortitude in standing for the doctrines of grace. I am by no means a five-point Calvinist, but I know enough of the grace and sovereignty of God to recognize the truth of what you wrote.

I always find your posts solid and genuine. A breath of fresh, graceful, God-exalting air. May there be more brothers like yourself: learned, yet humble; graceful and resolved. Thanks for being an inspiration, and I mean that :)

Brother Paul

R
roaringlamb Jun 22, 2007

Brother Paul, I am humbled by your kind words. Any words that have the remotest amount of wisdom are from Him. I have had to wrestle for years to come to point of realizing the affront of grace to my flesh because I always wanted to earn my way into Heaven. I wanted to justify myself before God. But then and now God began and continues to destroy that little Pharisee that resides within, and I count it all as dung to know Christ and His great work of redeeming me.

Many blessings to you brother, and just so you know, your posts have been a tremendous blessing to me through my time here on S.I.
Thank you

G
Gammo Jun 22, 2007

Dear Roaringlamb, Wesly said I must preach righteousness, judgment and the law before I preach grace. Paul said I would not know what sin was except by the law.

sermonindex Jun 22, 2007

It's a blessing to be witnessing this conversation, brothers. The Lord spoke something to me last week, which resonates with your post, roaringlamb:

I have had to wrestle for years to come to point of realizing the affront of grace to my flesh because I always wanted to earn my way into Heaven. I wanted to justify myself before God. But then and now God began and continues to destroy that little Pharisee that resides within, and I count it all as dung to know Christ and His great work of redeeming me.

I'd willingly let God down on account on a few things that day, and knew I had to repent to get back into fellowship with Him. And it was so hard and frustrating and even self-condemning, because it just didn't work; I knew I lacked something. I didn't have the tears of godly sorrow; I couldn't produce anything of myself, to the point that I was about to give up--I couldn't justify myself. I was like Esau, who "found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears" (Hebrews 12:17). And then, out of nowhere the Lord spoke a precious word into my heart: "Slav, do you think it is [i]your repentance[/i] which will make you righteous in my sight? So if you don't repent, you're damned, but if you do, then you're justified. So where am I in the picture? If it is because of your repentance that you are saved, did I die in vain?"

I don't know how my flesh had deceived me, practically, into thinking that because I repented and was sorry for my sin, I would find acceptance in the sight of the Lord; that my repentance was somehow the prerequisite for His grace. But thank God, that even when I was dead in trespasses and sins, and [i]unrepentant[/i], Christ came and died for me (Romans 5:8)! At that point, as this truth entered my soul, something broke deep in me and I couldn't but cry and was filled with infinite thanksgiving, for I heard Him say: "Yes, Slav, you didn't repent, and you tried to justify yourself, and rejected my grace, and were worthy of death. Yet, I [i]still[/i] died for you, and, although you did everything to deserve my wrath, I will not hold your sin against you."

There was something so profound in the fact that God would die for me, even knowing that, in my self-righteousness, I would first reject Him--that very inconceivable goodness of God that would lead a wretched man like me to repentance.

He made it all right before me: only grace can lead to repentance, never vice versa.

In Christ,
Slavyan

G
Gammo Jun 22, 2007

Yes brother only the goodness of God leads to repentance, but if you don't repent there is no Kingdom, Christ and John the Baptist and the Disciples all preched REPENT for the Kingdom of God is at hand

P
PaulWest Jun 22, 2007

Wesly said I must preach righteousness, judgment and the law before I preach grace.

Wesley also said that an ounce of love is worth a pound of knowledge. There is a balance, brother. I believe that being around Wesley and Whitefield would have been a humbling experience for many street preachers today...humbling by virtue of the awesome [i]balance[/i] of truth and grace in their ministries which God could anoint. The legendary fruit of their ministries certainly bears testimony to this fact.

R
roaringlamb Jun 22, 2007

Dear Roaringlamb, Wesly said I must preach righteousness, judgment and the law before I preach grace. Paul said I would not know what sin was except by the law.

Yes and I agree that the Law must be given to those who would be proud in the hope that the Holy Spirit would give life to them to repent, and believe the Gospel.

Now to the miserable soul who realizes their utter and rather frequent failures, the Gospel may be presented as a soothing balm.

In all of this, I believe the Holy Spirit must give life before one can repent and believe. This, I am afraid is where much confusion comes from in our efforts to evangelize. We ask men to do what only God can- give life, then we tell them that they are Christians when there has been not one ounce of regeneration. It is all head knowledge and without the seal of the Holy Spirit thus one can be argued or reasoned quickly out of their profession, which tragically happens to a vast majority of our young people.

More tragic though is when one is truly regenerated, yet never tastes the glory of Christ's great work for them because they are lied to and told their acceptance is solely based upon them and what they do. Thus they must buy into a certain person's idea of what a Christian is or is not and it becomes Law and not Gospel, and they become the servant of a man and not of Christ.

I suggest that we need to learn to differentiate more carefully what in Scripture is law, and what is Gospel and not make the good news of Christ's death for sinners a mallet with which to beat people with.

R
roaringlamb Jun 22, 2007

There is a balance

Quote of the day!!!
Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, we live in an amoral society. This is much different than in the days of Wesley and Whitefield in that at least then, most unsaved folks knew they were offending God, or even that there was a God to start with.

Today we must undertake the way to establish morals(by this I mean right and wrong, so the Law can be presented to drive them to Christ. Not as a means of bringing conviction for failed morality in the world's eyes), and also to befriend people to share with them. I have seen many people who laugh at guys shouting "repent" sit down and listen to someone tell them to repent over a cup of coffee. Same message, but simply being wise as serpents and gentle as doves. :-D

sermonindex Jun 22, 2007

Yes brother only the goodness of God leads to repentance, but if you don't repent there is no Kingdom, Christ and John the Baptist and the Disciples all preched REPENT for the Kingdom of God is at hand

It is strange that we often separate the revelation of God's grace from our repentance. I agree that it is "only the goodness of God [that] leads to repentance," but my very repentance is initiated or birthed by His goodness. I doubt there is a kind of self-orchestrated repentance which we can have control over, coming apart from the workings of God. Rather it is the work of God's grace in me that bears the fruit of repentance. The question is then: is it possible to genuinely and self-consciously reject His goodness? I believe not, for a revelation of the goodness of God (which goodness we cannot know apart from Him revealing it to us in truth), as work in itself, LEADS us to repentance. It is a work from above, for which the flesh cannot boast, even in its repentance. [EDIT: I guess this is one of those things about which we can boldly say, "We know in part, and we prophesy in part..." (1 Cor. 13:9)]

sermonindex Jun 28, 2007

Here is a recent article I wrote called:

GOD DOES NOT ACCEPT SINNERS AS THEY ARE
Sinners Must Do Something To Be Saved

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17650&post_id=138014&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=36#138014

sermonindex Jun 28, 2007

With no offense, most things are written here on this site to where the new generation wouldn't even take time to read it. The way things are said are very un-simplistic and all compressed and puffed up in knowledge. If I were un-churched I wouldn't even understand what your sayin Mr. Jesse to begin with. It's almost like chinese to me and I speak english. It's all good, your still my friend...

sermonindex Jun 28, 2007

Roaringlamb said: Perhaps I am being too stern, but time and time again, you boast of how crowds are angry with you, and that you are like Paul and the apostles. But your message has no grace, it is all law and no gospel at all because you have blurred the lines of the two. Do not forget brother there is not just Mount Sinai, but there is a Mount Zion which speaks better things.
Amen and Amen!

When we minister the gospel with grace we must have the eyes of Jesus in dealing with the people. Thats why we have His Spirit in us to do just that. God would have us look at people with compassion, "For God soooooooooooooo loved[s] the world". I have seen legalistic preachers destroy the love of God in a moment, I have seen them rip churches apart with their 'holiness' messages that have nothing to do with the holiness of God.

Believing in Jesus Christ by faith is a work, but it's a different kind of work. This work is not a work generated by the flesh, it's by His Spirit in conjunction with our spirit. The flesh can't take any credit for something it can't see, thus the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.

When the enemy comes against your mind and says all manner of things against you, you work from your spirit man to maintain that your flesh is dead and your not going to react to his accusations. As soon as you react in the flesh, you have activated the works department. When you and I act out the law in our flesh, all manner of sin is waiting at the door to be acted out.

I am finding victory for the first time in my miserable existance going from a "sin-repent" lifestyle to just not sinning (I am talking about the besetting sin).

The victory is in Jesus and what He accomplished on the cross, the cross is the key. When we reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin, victory comes. The holy Spirit can only work in individuals who are NOT trying to work out their own salvation their way by means of creating or acting out existing laws that would cause your mind to think that these laws or standards make you holy and righteous before God. (going to church, tithing, standards of holiness, hair, the list goes on)

When we just simply trust the LORD (thats a work(spirit) in itself), and don't go to the right(law) or to the left(apostasy) but move on with that single eye (grace) straight ahead, the holy Spirit is working and He is working out all things for our good. He is that two edged sword piercing and dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow, He is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When you and I embrace the cross, all hell will break loose, "but be of good courage, I have overcome the world".


[I wasn't trying to interpret the right being law and left being apostasy or single eye being grace, I was just using them as an example to show that we must simply trust in the LORD and nothing more.]

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