The Wrath to Come -brayley

Thanks, Eli. Great article, I found it quite helpful. Now I get to look into it all myself.

By the way, I'll be seeing you in about two weeks. David Tennant and I are coming up, Lord willing, to Victoria. May God bless Himself in our service, there is no greater joy to the saints.

Hi Eli and Greg,

I love you guys, but I can’t resist answering this article Eli wrote. Hopefully I can convince him to sharpen his pencil a little. :-D

It would be wonderful if end times theology was as simple as this to determine. But I am afraid that this post leaves a little to be desired in convincing me to forsake any thoughts I might happen to entertain of a pretribulational viewpoint, as you may need to go a little deeper in your study of these words.

You have neatly contained both words into two small definitions, and left us with the thought that both words are found very much apart in scripture. And while I agree that the word ‘thumos’ often describes a more short-lived passion, it also is descriptively used to enhance the very word you seek to divorce it from, ‘orge’. And the word, ‘orge’, while used to describe a judicial anger, is not limited to that, but is also descriptive of a longer abiding anger that is not necessarily righteous. Your own scriptural quotes work against you when examined more closely, as you evidently missed the fact that ‘thumos’ is translated into more English words then just ‘wrath’, as is true of ‘orge’, also. Let’s look at the scriptures you yourself used and the associated points. All of your quotes will be in paranthesis’ as I am not used to formatting on the site.

Quote:
(An example of the word thumos can be found in Ephesians 4 verse 31, "Let all bitterness, and wrath [thumos], and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice." Paul is not telling them to put aside justice, but passionate rage. Another example is in Acts 19:28, "And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath [thumos], and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians." Notice that the wrath here spoken is not a justifiable wrath against transgression, but the flaring up of anger that comes from passionate emotion. When someone says they have a bad temper, they are talking about this thumos wrath, not the retributive wrath of calm and calculated justice.)

You point out here that the Greek word behind the English word ‘wrath’ here is thumos, and show how that it refers not to the ‘just wrath’ found in the Greek word, ‘orge’; so the presupposition is that you are building your case for ‘orge’ only being used one way in scripture. You missed here that the word ‘anger’ in the above passage is the word ‘orge’. And that the word ‘orge’ is used also to illustrate a deep-seated or long standing resentment. See also Col. 3:8, where ‘orge’ is again translated as a long-standing anger which must be put off by us as Christians.

Quote:
(Orge wrath can be clearly seen in Romans 2:5-6, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath [orge] against the day of wrath [orge] and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds." Here the wrath of God is portrayed as judiciary righteous judgment against the ungodly. Orge wrath is directly connected to transgressing the law of God: "Because the law worketh wrath [orge]: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15) Sin deserves punishment, and that punishment is the orge wrath of God. The word orge is used 36 times in the New Testament and always refers to the righteous legal judgment of God.)

Lets look at the next two verses in this passage from above to bring it into context:
Romans 2:
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Here both words are used in the passage again in verse 8. ‘Indignation’ is the Greek word, ‘thumos’, while wrath is the Greek word, ‘orge’. Here, as you said, ‘orge’ is directly connected to the transgressing of the law of God, but here, however, so is ‘thumos’ used very plainly in connection with the righteous punishment of God toward the transgressor in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. ‘thumos and orge’ it says.

Quote:
(The word orge is used 36 times in the New Testament and always refers to the righteous legal judgment of God.)

Let me use Vines to answer the above statement partially:

originally any “natural impulse, or desire, or disposition,” came to signify “anger,” as the strongest of all passions. It is used of the wrath of man, Eph. 4:31; Col. 3:8; 1 Tim. 2:8; Jas. 1:19-20; the displeasure of human governments, Rom. 13:4-5; the sufferings of the Jews at the hands of the Gentiles, Luke 21:23; the terrors of the Law, Rom. 4:15; “the anger” of the Lord Jesus, Mark 3:5; God’s “anger” with Israel in the wilderness, in a quotation from the OT, Heb. 3:11; 4:3; God’s present “anger” with the Jews nationally, Rom. 9:22; 1 Thess. 2:16; His present “anger” with those who disobey the Lord Jesus in His gospel, John 3:36; God’s purposes in judgment, Matt. 3:7; Luke 3:7; Rom. 1:18; 2:5, 8; 3:5; 5:9; 12:19; Eph. 2:3; 5:6; Col. 3:6; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9.

A simple look at Eph 4:31, Col. 3:8, and 1 Tim. 2:8, and other scriptures negates the truth of your statement. You have relegated the word to one meaning along, while a contextual meaning is in order.

Quote:
(Proceeding from the beginning of chapter 15 to the end of chapter 16, the vials of wrath are poured out upon the earth by the seven angels of God. Since this takes place before Jesus returns and during the great tribulation, the pretribulationists assert that the Church cannot be present, for they are not appointed unto orge wrath. What they have failed to see is that the word 'wrath' used here and throughout these two chapters is not orge wrath at all, but thumos wrath, the hot anger of God being demonstrated against a wicked world PRIOR TO the revelation of Jesus Christ, when He at last comes to tread "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath [orge] of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15) When Jesus comes He shall judge the earth for all it's wickedness, bringing with Him the righteous retributive judgment of God against His enemies. He shall separate the wheat and the tares, and cast all those who obeyed not the Gospel into the Lake of Fire which burns for ever and ever. That, my dear readers, is the true orge wrath of God, of which we are saved from, and of which we are not appointed to. The thumos wrath of God is something entirely different: )

You say in the above quote that the word ‘wrath’ used here and throughout these two chapters is not ‘orge’ wrath at all but ‘thumos’ wrath. Lets examine that more closely:

Revelation 16:
19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

The words above, ‘fierceness of His wrath’ in the Greek read ‘thumos of His orge’. Also the other Scripture you quoted above, Revelation 19:15, also reads, ‘fierceness of His wrath’, or, again in the Greek, ‘thumos of His orge’. So indeed, ‘thumos’ is not so different from ‘orge’ in scripture, when it comes to the description of God’s wrath, as in it’s essence, it is descriptive of ‘orge’ itself in some contexts. We cannot divide these words so easily. In part you have set up a straw man to knock down in order to prove your own beliefs to the unwary. But simple study poses considerable problems to your article, let alone beginning to consider other aspects in scripture that would affect it.

In the meantime, consider this following verse that Jesus spoke,

John 14:
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where is that place? And when is that place? What must the bridegroom accomplish before he comes to find his bride, who must remain ready? When is the marriage feast of the Lamb?

Love in Christ.

Cliff.

Brother Cliff! Great to hear from you and thanks for your post.

Yes, I'm fully aware of those references you have mentioned. Nothing in my article takes away from Revelation 16:19, or Revelation 19:15, which say sinners will partake of the thumos of his orge. They certainly will.

The point is, the vials are simply not God's orge wrath, and pretribulationists try and push the envelope of 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9 to include it, but it just does not allow for it. Neither of these verses are saying were are going to be removed from the tribulation but the context of each verse is the return of the Lord, when Jesus destroys the wicked from the righteous. That's the context and that's the wrath.

The tribulation is never described in Scripture as the wrath of God, so to conclude that we are not appointed to the tribulation is a falsification. As a matter of fact, in the very same book Paul says that we ARE appointed to tribulation: "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto." (1 Thess. 3:3)

Perhaps I was too broad with my statement that every mention of orge in the New Testament is referring to the righteous judgment of God, but 99% are. I encourage everyone to check this out for themselves.

As for John 14:1-3, we can discuss that in person. :)
The Lord bless you Cliff,
Love in Christ,
-Eli

brethren

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved from the Wrath to Come. AMEN.

Bro Cliff
it seems to me that the understanding of the wrath we are saved from is flawed. The Blood of Christ Saves us from the Wrath of God, that being the full punishment for our sins, ie eternal fire. We are not spared tribulation on earth. Bro Cliff i am sure you are aware of the sufferings of our brethren at the inception of the Church, with us being the terminal generation, how much more then must we suffer as this is the Final Display of God's Manifold Wisdom to the Powers? If they suffered, we shall suffer all the more because this is the Last Hurah! i would say that the idea of a pre-trib rapture itself is a device of the enemy calculated to lull men into a false sense of security such that when suffering comes, there will be a great falling away. Of course the logical thing would be to get us out of here but God is showing out here. It seems to me that the Revelation was given to John for the Church, after all it was written to the Church telling us of what is to come. If we were not to be here, why go to all that trouble? Some have said (based on the letter to the Church at Philadelphia) that we will be saved out of the hour of trial. Well there is one problem, that Grace was extended to 1 out of 7 Churches and it seems to me the context is more of preserving [i][b]through[/b][/i] If this is indeed the rapture, then only 1 out of 7 will be caught up in it.

i think it is also interesting to consider what Paul said to the Thessalonians that the man of sin must be revealed and that the great falling away must come first and thereafter our Lord will return to consume him with fire.

dear saints let us not be so deceived, or Lord has set a precedent. The Church Suffered at the beginning, in the middle and she will not be spared at the end either, especially because we are the last generation and as such we have to fill up whatever is left of the sufferings of Christ in the body. Dear saints don't you know that those who have gone before us look down (the great cloud of witnesses) and are eagerly awaiting God's Display of Himself through us? DOn't you know that Paul, Peter, James and JOhn and everyone else expect that much more of us? Most importantly, God expects that much more of us because we have been given the most. We have the legacy of those who have gone before us, their trials and tribulations, the testimonies of the Hand of God upon them working throughout the ages. Brethren don't you know that the word says the first shall be last and the last first? We are the last generation but shall be first in heaven because we are to do the most! We have been given so much and thus much is required of us! let us not be so foolish as to believe that we shall be whisked away! Daniel was a righetous man yet when the judgment fell on ISrael he was not spared captivity, Ezekiel was too a righetous man and yet he was in exile also. Who among us can claim a greater righteousness than that of these men? Paul was also righteous yet he was not spared the sword...have you done more for God than he to deserve being whisked away in this most critical hour? don't get me wrong now, the works which Paul did were birthed of the Spirit of God which means that the Righteousness which he had was being made manifest, these works are evidence of God's Salvation of this wretch.

Of course we have the Righteousness of Christ, but let us be honest, do we let that Righteousness show as we ought? We are Cleansed inwardly right? if this is so, then it must follow that there is an external expression of this to the world that the world would be convicted. It seems to me that the world is innately wicked and must suffer for that, but also that wickedness remains because we as the Church have not done all to be Salt and Light.

John 14:
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where is that place? And when is that place? What must the bridegroom accomplish before he comes to find his bride, who must remain ready? When is the marriage feast of the Lamb?

i'm glad you brought this scripture up bro, what a blessed hope this is. We know the place is Heaven and the Son must prepare the place for us to go to when He comes for us. There is only 1 more coming of Christ which is the one in which He comes in Judgment. The scripture is very plain about His first coming in terms of the prophecies, and also very plain about His Second coming. if He is coming for us before the Last coming, should this not have been written of as the Second coming and what happens at the end of the Revelation be told to us as the 3rd coming?

When is the Marriage Feast of the Lamb? is Jesus not referred to, and does He not refer to Himself as He Who Was, Is and SHall be? if this is so, then anything which is connected to Him is likewise. The Marriage Feast Was, Is and Is to come just as the Groom Is.Hasn't every preparation been made, is it not being made, will it not be made? Even those saints who are dressed in white, the multitude which could not be numbered which are the saints of God from all the ages are already in Heaven while all this tribulation is happenning.Doesn't the word say Christ was slain from the foundations of the world? Doesn't the word also say that we are seated in Heavenly Places NOW? or perhaps we don't believe that. Are we not saved from before the setting of the foundations of the earth by election (Romans 9 anyone)? Were we not called already, are we not called now and will we not yet be called in future? Dear saints were we not always at the Wedding Feast (well those who are invited to it), are we not there now? will we not be there in the future? Those saints which couldn't be numbered are everyone from the first to the last one saved and they are in heaven already Spiritually by virtue of the election of God. Doesn't Christ tell us that nobody can take us from Him? The enemy can't take us from Heaven...This is the Security we have in our Salvation, that Chirst was slain from the Foundations of the Earth to secure this for us therefore there is nothing which can wrest us from Him.

Dear saints the only reality we know is linear time but as far as God is concerned (and from Whose viewpoint we ought to be looking if we are Seated with Him) everything is before Him. the beginning and the end and all inbetween are all before Him. Don't we know that for God, time isn't linear, it is before Him? DOn't we know that for example the fact that Job lived before the law and Moses but his book comes after these books say that God sees all things at once?

Dear saints we shall have to endure the tribulation so we know what manner of Christian we are because nothing reveals the truth of a man or woman than adversity. i would much rather endure the tribulation and have whatever mess remains in me purged completely so i know what manner of Christian i have been made into than to be surprised at the Bema Seat and lose everything and enter heaven with no reward which by the way shows that you have done squat for Christ since being saved. it's easy for us to be Christian when all is well...how much of a Christian we are is revealed by fire. To be sure, the coming judgment is on the wicked, but the wicked will certainly persecute us also in retaliation. We will not suffer the judgment of God as it is poured out on the wicked, we will be given Grace to be spared that, however the wicked will be angry and you know who they will come after. There is nothing to be fearful of, if God be for us, who can be against us?

Perhaps this pernicious sentiment of being spared trial is an indictment against us of our shallowness in the Faith. maybe we believe this fallacy because it is what we would do if we were God. Maybe it is us cowering away from the brutality of the Cross and the total death thereof...if we can't die to ourselves in the day to day, we can't die physically for Christ. i fear that this is at the root of this idea, we don't want to go by the Cross and hang on it long enough to die!

if i am wrong, God forgive me and correct me. if this indeed is God's Heart, then may He be for us Grace to do what is Required of us. i guess either way i can't lose if the trib precedes the rapture. i'm ready either way, if the rapture comes before, i'll be made ready, if the trib comes first, i'll be made ready. maybe i'm tripping because i know i'm not going to get caught up but will be killed, i guess that's my rapture and when it comes, i'll be Made ready.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.