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Theology

Sola Scriptura?

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lovegrace Jun 30, 2007

Recently, I've been looking through myself and God has been showing me things. I'm starting to question a lot of things that I believe, on a deeper level.

I know this probably sounds like blasphmy, or something, but what are the verses, chapters, etc in the bible that says ONLY the written Word of God is our basis in everything?

What is 'Sola Scriptura'?
Is it biblical?
If it IS biblical, then why do we read anything outside of the bible? Does God condone this, (verses needed)?

I'm asking this question sincernly because I don't know. I read a lot of books outside of the bible and experience things outside of the bible but they don't contradict the written Word.

I'm looking for an honest discussion about this belief. I'm asking that we all step outside of our own self and take an honest look at the topic at hand.

Thanks, Let's begin.

sermonindex Jun 30, 2007

LoveGrace, I'm just a little confused with your first sentence that leads to the rest of these questions. They're not bad questions, but I was wondering how the first line tied in with them.

Quote:"Recently, I've been looking through myself and God has been showing me things. I'm starting to question a lot of things that I believe, on a deeper level."


Secondly, you sort of answered your own question here...

Quote:What is 'Sola Scriptura'?
Is it biblical?
[Question]If it IS biblical, then why do we read anything outside of the bible? Does God condone this, (verses needed)?
I'm asking this question sincernly because I don't know. I read a lot of books outside of the bible and experience things outside of the bible [Answer]but they don't contradict the written Word.[end quote]

Jesus was/is The Word made flesh.
The Word that we read is divinely inspired and the whole of it is. It's the only book on earth that can make that claim.

You answered your question up there and that's great.

We should be Berean-like, and know the Word for ourselves, have our doctrines down with the Lord first and then we can read or listen to others "expound" on the Written Word, so that we won't be deceived into false teachings that are extra-biblical.

Do you have the www.e-sword.net Downloads ?

I think folks should look up verses for themselves and are responsible to God to know His Word for themselves. That is why He wrote John 16:13.

I think we should encourage/exhort each other this way, to search His Word out for ourselves, rather than be the Bible-answer-folks, because we each shall stand before Him when He asks, "what did you do with My Word & Spirit of Truth ?"

His Love to you.

Love your nickname too. :-)

P
psalm1 Jun 30, 2007

Lovegrace,I believe when you read a book written by a true man of God it is as if you are fellowshipping with that man.No one has the complete revelation.I need what you have and vis versa.I love the word of God and I love to read annointed books.The people that read the bible only , I commend them. But really they dont know what they are missing
....David

R
roaringlamb Jun 30, 2007

LoveGrace,

Sola Scriptura was the teaching of the Reformers that was brought about to combat the Roman Catholic idea that Scripture could not be interpreted by individuals. For example, if you are in the Roman Catholic Church, you must interpret the passage as the fathers or councils before have interpreted it, or risk being banished, or anathematized.

In answer to the other part of your question, I have included a link to a wonderful article I hope answers you..

[url=http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/01/sola-scriptura-and-role-of-teachers-in.html]Sola Scriptura[/url]

P.S. Sometimes some of our greatest discoveries from the Scriptures come when we are challenged as to why we believe what we do, either way, His grace is sufficient to see you through not only the blissful days, but also the tempestuous nights :-D

P
pastorfrin Jun 30, 2007

Hi lovegrace,

These are scriptures we are all familiar with but they tell us so much:

2 Tim. 2:11-16
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: [12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: [13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. [14] Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. [15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [16] But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2 Tim. 3:10-17
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, [11] Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. [12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. [13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. [14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What do these scriptures tell us to do? If this is not true than our salvation is not true and I know by His Spirit within me that my salvation is true.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Without His word all the books ever written are meaningless.

In His Love
pastorfrin

sermonindex Jun 30, 2007

roaringlamb, I don't believe we should get our doctrine from men.

I just feel being Berean is the way to go.

We're personally responsible for what we believe, before GOD.
We can't say, "so and so taught me", when we stand before Him.

No matter 'who' the teacher is ... if we're not Bereans, we will be judged for that.

Not being hard here, just knowing that Jesus did not take sending His Spirit lightly.

Sola Scriptura is just a latin term for a major truth ... we are People of The Word Only.

Praise GOD! Calvin didn't say it first ~ GOD did!

R
roaringlamb Jun 30, 2007

I don't understand what you are getting at, but the main ideas that came from the Reformation were-
Sola Scriptura(Scripture Alone)
Sola Fide(Faith Alone)
Sola Gratia(Grace Alone)
Solus Christus(Christ Alone)
Soli Deo Gloria(Glory To God Alone)

I don't think I said anything about Calvin.

It is the height of arrogance to think that I can deduce al I need to know about Scripture without any help from any one else, and it is alos the height of foolishness to not weigh everything read by Scripture alone as the plumb line.

Also Grannie, if you do not think we should get our doctrine from men, why read the Bible? ;-)
After all, aren't you getting your doctrine from men?(I speak facetiously, not questioning the Divine authorship of Scripture)

L
lovegrace Jun 30, 2007

Sola Scriptura. Okay. Hmm, I'm not challenging that then because absolutly I agree with that. Now that I understand what it really means.


INSTEAD, I'm challenging EXTRA-Biblical information. What does the bible say about 'things outside of the bible'? How shall we deal with them? Shall we just read ONLY the bible and no extra-biblical resources?

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

CHANGING TOPIC TO EXTRA-BIBLICAL SOURCES!! Sorry! Thanks for informing me about Sola Scriptura but I thought it meant 'only read scripture' not 'God inspired Word of God'.

So. Here are my new questions.

What does the bible say about 'things outside of the bible'?

How shall we deal with them?

Shall we just read ONLY the bible and no extra-biblical resources?

R
roaringlamb Jun 30, 2007

What does the bible say about 'things outside of the bible'?

Everything must be filtered through the truth of Scripture, no matter how true it sounds.

sermonindex Jun 30, 2007

Ha, I should have taken a nickname like that. Har !

You do to "know what I'm getting at".

To whomever you attribute the term "sola Scriptura" - I'm just saying that in your first post with the reference to that Site ... that it was GOD Who first coined that term, not men.

I DO NOT believe it is "the height of arrogance to think that I can deduce all I need to know about Scripture without any help from anyone else"

If you were stranded on a deserted island with just a Bible --- who would teach you ?

And your last lines (edit: in yer reply to me) were just down right silly. :-P

Love you brother !
SOLA-SCRIPTURA-Annie-but-not-reformed.

And don't call me Grannie! Haaaa. :-D

R
roaringlamb Jun 30, 2007

Do you know how may cults have been started by men just reading their Bibles without any Historical views considered?

The majority of heresies in the Church today are nothing more than old lies re-packaged, but because many assume that the Historical view of Christian beliefs is null and void, they cannot see that.

If I was stuck on an island with only my Bible, I would be ecstatic, but at the same time, I know myself too well, and would want to have Matthew Henry's Commentary at least.

See too many folks come up with off the wall ideas from reading the Scripture, and not checking it with others, or even the view of it through the ages of the Church. Now I may seem to contradict myself saying that that was what Rome did, but I do not mean that the Historical view is always best, but that it is a good litmus test for what one is seeing in Scripture, and also I am not saying that the past interpretations MUST be ours.

If someone came to me and told me that God showed them something that noone else had ever seen, I would question that idea even more, as well as the source, because the Church did not start yesterday, and God has been faithful to grant us teachers to help guide us. If they contradict the Scriptures, then they are wrong of course.

sermonindex Jun 30, 2007

Hi again brother.

You ended your last post with a good saying that is what being a Berean is.

Quote: "Everything must be filtered through the truth of Scripture, no matter how true it sounds."

How can one do that, if they are depending on another person to show them "The Truth" ?


Quote:"Do you know how may cults have been started by men just reading their Bibles without any Historical views considered?" and "See too many folks come up with off the wall ideas from reading the Scripture, and not checking it with others, or even the view of it through the ages of the Church."

Do you know how many Cults there are because people are Not Sola-Scriptura and listen to these men without being Bereans ?

I've seen "too many folks come up with off the wall ideas from" ... Mostly, listening to some crack-pot on the T.V. - Radio or Internet, more than I've ever seen of one who has just their personal devotional time with His Word alone and 'PROPER' STUDY SKILLS.

As in - exegesis and cross-referencing WITH a complete dependence on GOD, praying that He'll protect them from Deception.

MOST cults exist, because the people do not use His Word "with" His Spirit as in my signature verse. Very important verse there, that is the whole crux of what you and I are discussing here.

You are saying that you would need Matthew Henry on a deserted island because this verse that Jesus promised us, in John 16:13 is not 'enough'.

The Catholic Church, kept the Bible FROM the people and were and are, the INTERPRETERS 'for' the people ... instead of Freedom to the people to rely on John 16:13 by themselves.

That is basically what we're discussing here.
Are we saying that without these "interpreters" we can never come to a full knowledge of truth ?

Only if you start a "Following" with what you believe the Word has taught you, are you then very much accountable to The Body, for what you teach .... but your 'personal' beliefs will be questioned by GOD, as I shared earlier ... we can never blame another for what we "choose" to believe. We will stand before Him and give an account of what & why we believed as we did, based on John 16:13.
We're personally responsible for what we do with The Holy Spirit and The Living Word.

I would hope that you know that I would agree with your last paragragh, as I did mention the word "extra-Biblical". But - if we are Sola-Scriptura - we cannot be "extra-Biblical". That would be a total contradiction. And if we need a teacher to show us how extra-Biblical we are, then there is something wrong with our walk with Him. As in, Independent of His spirit of truth - Pride!

The definition of "Heresies" from the Greek is again - "to choose - the chosen opinion - to choose for oneself."

That shows unequivicably that 'we' are responsible before GOD to be Bereans and the personal responsibility for what we all believe is a very personal thing before GOD and us .... whether we're on a deserted island or not.


His Love to you.
Annie

R
rookie Jul 1, 2007

King James Version

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

New King James Version

1Pe 2:2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow *thereby,

The only thing that is "sincere" the only thing that is "pure" is the word of God found in Scriptures.

Everyone of us as we teach or refer someone to another man or woman is not pure. We often forget what the New covenant is all about and what is received by those who enter in...


Hbr 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Hbr 8:11 "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
Hbr 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[fn2] I will remember no more."[fn3]
Hbr 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

According to this promise we do not need a neighbor or a brother to teach us...God says that He will do this.

In Christ
Jeff

sermonindex Jul 2, 2007

Heb 5:12 - 6:3 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit.

Hia Jeff,

Not too many folks would agree with what you or I posted here, but I don't want to sound like a renegade neither.

Joh 16:12-13 {Jesus said} I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. {Howbeit} BUT when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come.

I know of some denominations that teach that this verse is/was just for the Apostles and use it to push apostolic-succession, saying people need "them" to bring out the all truth to the people.
That upsetting to hear.

I'm grateful that I sat under some of the best Prof.s at Bible College. They were priceless.
Old retired Missionaries - very academic, yet spirit filled, but wouldn't tolerate nonsense in phenomena or teachings.
As soon as I got saved, I wanted to go to school to learn and learn .... hunger's good.

But 28 years later - what has stuck with me most and actually, when all else is leaving my memory, the one thing I have left and value most is, these men who are long gone, left us with the tools of how to exegete and do hermeneutics for ourselves. That is what I praise GOD for most.

That's why I avoid answering some questions and say, "look it up on e-sword or something like it", because we have to be careful that we're not wanting to be the Bible-answer-people, that I mentioned on an earlier page.

The best gift you can give a new convert is a Strong's and then on from there ... or just direct them to the free e-sword or other programs.

I like a few of the programs out there. I especially like Zodhiates, because he does the grammar for you.
As you get older, (as I get older I mean), I don't need to be frying my brain (or what's left of it) by parsing verbs and all's that.

I read Greek message boards and love to watch them translate, or try to ... and I see there's a few prof.s on there to help. Very neat.

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day --- teach him "how" to fish and he'll eat forever.

Word studies, context, and cross-referencing are very much lacking and why we have as many different divisions or sects or denominations out there.

Trusting just, a teacher at Church or elsewhere and not studying for oneself at home, is the worst problem that I see in the Church. Even the best Churches.
Ask not that many of you be teachers.
I respect and listen to some good ones, but the best favor they do us is to say, Be a Berean.

Thanks brother.

R
rookie Jul 9, 2007

Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed [thereto] according to thy word.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

12 Blessed [art] thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.

14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as [much as] in all riches.

15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.


There is a time where God sends others to share the good news. There are times where God uses others to teach us in the ways of God.

Yet the most perfect way is when we reach a point where we ourselves experience what the author of Psalm 119 experienced. We find a treasure that exceeds all the richs that this world has to offer.

Have you found this to be your experience? Does the word of God shine brighter than the gold and silver?

In Christ
Jeff

sermonindex Jul 9, 2007

Yes Brother Jeff, this is my experience.
Yes, it shines brighter with each passing month and sometimes just one day - the same verse will brighten even more than yesterday.
He is clear with His Words and not all hodge-podged up with contradictions and not given to flares of emotion that keeps me wondering "what is he thinking?"

He never changes, there is no shadow of turning with Him. His word is forever established in Heaven. It is our strong tower - our Refuge in times of trouble and light onto our feet and a lamp onto our paths and vice versa. :)

But I learn from every single thing in this world too, as you said.
I learn from every person I encounter and even from God's creation itself, besides people.

Even circumstances like bashing my toe on the corner of the wall. Ha. Always there is something to learn about GOD and self.

But it always goes along with something out of His Word as you very well know.

Thank you for being a brother to us.
Christ Bless you Jeff.

R
rookie Jul 9, 2007

Sis wrote:

He is clear with His Words and not all hodge-podged up with contradictions and not given to flares of emotion that keeps me wondering "what is he thinking?"

Where there is liberty from contradiction, there is knowledge of the truth.

Psa. 19:0 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.

Psa. 19:1 \tThe heavens declare the glory of God;
\tAnd the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 \tDay unto day utters speech,
\tAnd night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 \tThere is no speech nor language
\tWhere their voice is not heard.
4 \tTheir line has gone out through all the earth,
\tAnd their words to the end of the world.
\tIn them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 \tWhich is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
\tAnd rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
6 \tIts rising is from one end of heaven,
\tAnd its circuit to the other end;
\tAnd there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7 \tThe law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
\tThe testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 \tThe statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
\tThe commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 \tThe fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
\tThe judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 \tMore to be desired are they than gold,
\tYea, than much fine gold;
\tSweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 \tMoreover by them Your servant is warned,
\tAnd in keeping them there is great reward.
12 \tWho can understand his errors?
\tCleanse me from secret faults.
13 \tKeep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
\tLet them not have dominion over me.
\tThen I shall be blameless,
\tAnd I shall be innocent of great transgression.
14 \tLet the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
\tBe acceptable in Your sight,
\tO LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.

In Christ
Jeff

sermonindex Jul 10, 2007

I just skimmed this thread because of time. A lot of good things said already.

Re "sola Scriptura" I wonder if the Reformers went a little too far in one sense. Scripture without the Spirit to interpret it isn't enough. All you get that way is the "dead letter". Spirit-filled men (or even women ;-))of God can help too.

As a student I had to read part of Berkoff's book, "Systematic Theology". The book was so dry and dusty: It was extremely "correct" and Reformed, but...

The Bible itself tells you that the Bible itself isn't enough. We need the Word AND the Spirit.

It's often very helpful to have study aids, as Annie says, and to learn from others who are better able to get at the real meaning, and the background information.

That doesn't mean there's need of any further [i]revelation[/i] from other sources besides the Bible, but accurate information and interpretation as to what the Bible [i]means[/i] is always helpful.

On the other hand, anything "extra-Biblical" that plainly [i][u]contradicts[/u][/i] Scripture is suspect. The better we get to know the Bible the better we should be able to recognise doctrinal error.

And the better we know the Lord the better we should be able to avoid spiritual error.

Jesus said in John 10, "My sheep [u]know my voice[/u] and they follow me". Not "My sheep know my words and what they mean"

Peter said: "Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life..." (John 6) Did he understand what Jesus had just been saying about eating His flesh and drinking His blood??? Surely not - he must have been as bewildered as anyone. But he knew Jesus, knew he needed Jesus and no other! His words give life, the words on the page, as words on a page, do not - until the Spirit applies them to our hearts.

Blessings

Jeannette

sermonindex Jul 11, 2007

I just skimmed this thread because of time.

Quite apparently. :-D


;-)

R
rookie Jul 11, 2007

Sis wrote;

Jesus said in John 10, "My sheep know my voice and they follow me". Not "My sheep know my words and what they mean"

I see it as the Scriptures are given to us so that we can recognize His voice when He speaks. The Scriptures teach us His ways. The Scriptures teach us to know what is good and to know what to reject as evil. Only by the use of Scripture are we trained to discern whether the spirit is good or evil.

In Christ
jeff

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