the rapture | SermonIndex

H

hmmhmm Jul 7, 2007

im trying to compare scripture to "test" what the Word of God says about the rapture,

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ~~[b]~~at the last trump[/b]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

and when is the last trump take place?

evelation 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

and i understand the following verses that this will take place after the seven year period?

im i way wrong in my understanding? many belive he will come before the seven year period.

sermonindex Jul 7, 2007

Someone's probably going to arrogantly tell you that this has been discussed many times here on SI and it has (but it's very aggravating to me when they do that, my feeling is for any discussion - don't partake if you don't want to). If we are to only look up the old discussions, read those and not step on anybody's toes with new discussions, why has Greg allowed new threads to continually be started and why doesn't he just shut down the whole thing?

Onward to the *new* discussion... You've probably listened to these but for the new folks here at SI, Zac Poonen's ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=157&min=220&orderby=titleA&show=20]~~Revelation[/url] series can help, specifically Rev 18.21 - 20.6 (7 from the top).

Also, David Pawson's entire ~~[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]~~Book of Revelation Series[/url] is very eye opening. He describes all the rapture views on Revelation throughout the series and gives his view toward the end.

I believe the Scripture supports a post tribulational rapture of the Church. And I also believe one of the greatest mass deceptions in the church today is the pre-trib rapture belief that the church is so special that we will not have suffer when, to me, this is what the whole Bible is about - just like Christ, learning obedience by the things we suffer.

Rev 20.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20.11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Personally, I believe the last trump takes place as Christ will come to earth to reign for a thousand years as in Rev 19 and 20.

I try now not to live and argue whether post trib or pre trib is the correct view... I am praying to get the "world" (the lust of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life) out of me so that I might found worthy to go in the 1st Resurrection. If we can't learn to overcome the sin in our own life (reign over), honestly, how can we reign with Christ in the next? That has become my MAIN concern at this point in my life (complete submission) and I try to share this with whoever would have ears to hear.

sermonindex Jul 7, 2007

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Hmmhmm, perhaps if you studied if the Kingdom of God is now here or not, and you'll find your answer to when that seventh trump has or had been blown.

sermonindex Jul 7, 2007

hmmhmm, i am listening to this sermon (?) this morning and thought you might like to listen along with your Bible as well...

~~[url=http://www.americaslastdays.com/info/ubm_hmet/ubm_hmet_part-1_lg.ram]~~The Church and the Tribulation Part One[/url]

Here is the page for all of ~~[url=http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=hmpc2]~~David Eells videos[/url].

God bless

sermonindex Jul 7, 2007

Brother Zac Poonen has a book titled the "The Final Triumph" in which he does a chapter by chapter study of revelation.

[image][img]http://www.cfcindia.com/web/images/books/tf_triumph.gif[/img]

~~[b]~~The Final Triumph[/b] - pdf download:
http://www.cfcindia.net/ebooks/The_Final_Triumph.pdf

~~[b]~~The Final Triumph[/b] - read online:
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=the_final_triumph

H

hmmhmm Jul 7, 2007

thanks, i will read Poonens study on the book of revelation, its just that most of my friends got the doctrines from "left behind" movies, right or wrong i just want to go "deeper" and se what the word says, and some other views on the subject

sermonindex Jul 7, 2007

I believe the Scripture supports a post tribulational rapture of the Church. And I also believe one of the greatest mass deceptions in the church today is the pre-trib rapture belief that the church is so special that we will not have suffer when, to me, this is what the whole Bible is about - just like Christ, learning obedience by the things we suffer.

Bless GOD!

Pray one for another here. SI people are chosen to be here for these days. No coincidences with HIM.

My Love and Respect to all, but Pre-trib and Preterism are cut out of the same cloth. Very dangerous stuff. They're Not Watching if they think we won't be "going through stuff" ... as Jesus told us to watch.

There's no excuse for not knowing the Word of GOD on this, because there is Three Times as many Scriptures on His Second Coming and what will procede it, then there was about His First Coming.

If we're Pan-Trib, we just haven't 'Studied' this Biggest event in creation's history.
When GOD comes back forever.

Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you ALL things".

Matt 13 & 24 - Mark 13 - Luke 21 - etc. etc. etc..

sermonindex Jul 7, 2007

but Pre-trib and Preterism are cut out of the same cloth. Very dangerous stuff.

When you've have completely studied Preterism, then make your judgment. I was a Post Tribulationist, I ran with and taught it, I know all about the doctrine. I have stated this time and time again, in order for you to have post trib rapture teaching you need to have scriptures that prove that an antichrist will make a peace treaty with Israel. The only way you can do that, you have to leave the Textus Receptus and go to the Alexandrian Text to support the teaching. Daniel 9:27 is the only source for this Post Trib teaching, only 1 verse, actually only 1 sentence.

You said yourself, in order for a doctrine to stick, you have to have 'truckloads' of scriptures. And if that be the case, you only have a toy car of a verse for your base.

Preterism refutes this by stating that Jesus Christ is[has] confirming[ed] the covenant with many for one week (the 70th week) because after 69 is 70.

And for the overspreading of abominations (this is not the abomination of desolation) he (Jesus) will make it desolate, even unto the consummation (the end of the age, 70AD) and that determined shall be poured out on the desolate (the sword that would follow the Jews into every country).

The "overspreading of abominations" is the Jews continue to sacrifice even though Christ their sacrifice has been offered up. Consider:

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

"I will send them a strong delusion that they believe a lie because they have no love for the truth"

Isaiah 66 speaks of Christ 70th week.

What has this got to do with the thread? Actually it has everything to do with it. The so called rapture is connected to the teaching of the tribulation period. We can't just touch on one subject, we have to touch on all subjects that are related to this to form a rightly divided conclusion.

sermonindex Jul 7, 2007

Dear Compliments, you are entitled to your interpretation of the Scriptures. That is what The LORD said ... "we believe what we want" ... bottomline. You have 'chosen' the easy way out.

That's all the opinion I can give here.

You have a Bible, so do I and so does everyone here. I've searched my for over 30 years to find out "when" he's coming so I can see Him.

I was pre-trib for my first 9 years of salvation.
I sat with just my Bible and a Strong's and looked up every single passage from the O.T. to through the New and wrote them all down in a notebook by hand.
When I was done, there were no more contradictions.
Every verse fit together like a perfect picture puzzle, not one piece missing and all verses or chapters, nicely snugged up together with no gaps.

Needless to say, I almost fell off of my chair at what I saw. I did not want to believe as I do now, so I continued to try to disprove it, but I have fully looked into your view of Preterism and I cannot go that way. I'm sorry.

Though eschatology is my 2nd favorite subject now, at the same time, I also know what His Word says about trying to convince someone of something other than what they're convinced of.

Your verses say that to you ... those I wrote say this to me.

On that note, there's nothing to debate or discuss.

I just pray we'll all take our computers and do the Bible searching for ourselves.

Whatever folks come up with after that, is between them and GOD.
He is our and will be our Judge.

Thanks!

H

HollyB Jul 7, 2007

Hello there, I'm new to the site and I'm very interested in all the discussions that are there between my brothers and sisters in Christ out there!

I am very interested in the subject of Christ's coming because God has really laid this subject on my heart so I just wanted to step in and and add my two cents (which is about all its worth) :)

I am not a teacher or in any kind of church leadership position, but I have been reading the Scriptures and praying to God for the Holy Spirit to teach me. I have also been reading many books on this subject of the Lord's coming as of late trying to obtain more understanding, but I still rely heavily on the Spirit for discernment of the Scriptures. I have also read and continue to read many different views on the rapture, so I like the discussions going on.

The pretribulation view of the Rapture is the one I grew up with and took it at face value at the time as I was child, but even after reading some of the different views on the subject, it still seems to me the Scriptures speak of the Rapture before persecution of the saints by the Antichrist, it just seems in my mind and heart to make more sense when I read it this way.

The clearest picture to me comes from the following verses and I wonder if someone would care to comment on their thoughts and views concerning this:

I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in one field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. - Luke 17:34-36

And also, Revelation 12 and the picture of the woman. The woman was understood to be the Church, and the child she gave birth to is the raptured saints out of the Church (as we know that all within the church who profess Christ are not truly saved).

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon( Satan), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven (the angels who fell into sin with Satan), and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born (the rapture). And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to His throne. - Revelation 12:1-5

It seems that the term "caught up" would be the saints going to God, instead of when Christ's second coming occurs, and Christ actually physically returns to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom at that time.

And then Revelation 6 reads..

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

It seems to me the woman, looking upon her as the visible Church, finds herself in another condition after the birth of her child (the invisible True Church), which is in a condition of persecution, hunted, and now dwelling in a wilderness. All her glory seems to be in the child, who is now gone. Then out of these persecuted people will come the martyrs who knew something of God before the Rapture, but had not given their lives completely to Christ and now will give their ultimate all to the death?

Having said all of this, whether Christ comes for me before or after the persecution of the AntiChrist, I pray to God I am ready. I really don't seek to escape tribulation in being swayed more toward this view, if God calls me to be a martyr, whether it's tomorrow or during the Great Tribulation, I will still with His strength follow Him if I must to the death. But I think these discussions are very healthy and good, so we can more understand the Scriptures and the promises of God..as He did command us to study the book of Revelation as He did no other book in the Bible.

Thanks for any comments (hopefully kind and discussive in nature)! God bless all my Christian brothers and sisters on this site!

sermonindex Jul 7, 2007

you are entitled to your interpretation of the Scriptures. That is what The LORD said ... "we believe what we want" ... bottom line. You have 'chosen' the easy way out.

What are you talking about Sister, "Easy Way Out"? Preterism is not the easy way out of nothing. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation", "You shall be persecuted for my name sake", I don't know what easy way out your talking about Sis. I, like you believe that I am rightly dividing the word. And having 30 years under your belt doesn't mean anything, people believe in many things for many years and find out in their old age that what they believed in was wrong.

Needless to say, I almost fell off of my chair at what I saw. I did not want to believe as I do now, so I continued to try to disprove it,

Well Sister, we have something in common here in your statement. I too fell off my chair when I saw that preterism was right and I too tried to disprove it, I didn't want to believe it.

And I am not looking to prove you wrong, thats not my intent. As the LORD said, "Come let us reason together" thats my intent. Eschatology is my 2nd topic of interest, my first is the cross of Christ.

God Bless Sister, ;-)

R

rowdy2 Jul 8, 2007

Reply
I believe when a saint inters into God’s rest (Kingdom of God) the final trump sounds and eternal life begins for that saint.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If people keep repeating the traditions of men they are in danger of missing the kingdom of God and becoming a hindrance unto others.

Jesus has already come and rewards each of us according to our works.

We all served the beast (flesh) until the spiritual man, the second man that has eternal life by grace (has been begotten) of our Heavenly Father, is quickened follows Jesus and serves God.

The son of perdition is the man of flesh the first man( 666). Perdition means he (us) is carnal and sentenced to death (Hell) and is dead for not keeping the Holy Law of our Creator.

Jesus is Lord of our lives and the son of perdition (flesh man) who was doing his (our) own will eating from the tree of good and evil pretending to be lord was consumed by the coming of our true Lord Christ Jesus.

We are now tied to the chose vine and He reigns in our hearts and we are being consumed by Him, to be consumed is a spiritual act of Him consuming us, or us consuming Him..

The falling away is the exposing the man of perdition (us) that spirit of antichrist the rebellious natural man (us)that gets his power from the beast [flesh man] is consumed by the coming of Christ Jesus.

Eddie

H

HollyB Jul 8, 2007

Hey brother Eddie...

Thanks for offering a different view to discuss...I like you believe that when a saint dies his soul is ushered into God's kingdom at that time, but not with his immortal body. That will come at the rapture when Christ raises the dead first (with immortal bodies) and then those who are living will be changed (into our immortal bodies). And each will receive his rewards for his life's faith and out his measure of faith, works. But I believe in the rapture and Second Coming...do you believe in the rapture or the Second Coming, or neither?

Just curious...thanks for any replies

HollyB

sermonindex Jul 8, 2007

Eddie said: I believe when a saint inters into God’s rest (Kingdom of God) the final trump sounds and eternal life begins for that saint.

Wow! That was some exposition Eddie!

For me preterism is nothing, what your talking about is the deep things of God. Preterism only helped me get my thinking squared around, but I want to move forward into what you've just posted. I want to move away from the historical aspect of preterism. The LORD has been showing me bits and pieces of what you've shared here, for Jesus said the words that I speak they are spirit and they are life. Thanks for sharing that, and helping me see more into what the Spirit is saying to the church.

Amazing :-D

sermonindex Jul 8, 2007

Hollyb said: I like you believe that when a saint dies his soul is ushered into God's kingdom at that time

It depends on what you mean by "dies". If you mean cessation of life, then no. But if you mean when we "Reckon ourselves to be dead", or "Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead and Christ shall give thee light" RIGHT NOW, then yes.

The Kingdom of God is not off in the blue yonder, it's in us.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

In other words, you and I are the Temple of God right now.

sermonindex Jul 8, 2007

When you've have completely studied Preterism, then make your judgment. I was a Post Tribulationist, I ran with and taught it, I know all about the doctrine.

I was pre-trib / preterist for the first 15 years of my salvation and when I sat down studied both side by side, I was astounded as well and changed. But thank God, our belief about it isn't an essential part of being redeemed!!

You said to GrannieAnnie, "Preterism is not the easy way out of nothing. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation", "You shall be persecuted for my name sake"," Let me ask you this, how do you prepare for something that you don't believe you will be here for? It sounds like you are preparing but how do others prepare?

I was talking to a friend the other day about what was happening in the world and what might be coming on the earth and her answer to me was we were't going to be here then so why bother talking about it. I'm not trying to put words in GrannieAnnie's mouth but this is where I apply the "easy way out." But that's just my two cents worth.

sermonindex Jul 8, 2007

how do you prepare for something that you don't believe you will be here for? It sounds like you are preparing but how do others prepare?

I am preparing to be ready for what awaits us. I believe we are living in the last days of the United States of America. I don't believe in a pre-post trib rapture, therefore we will be here until we are either martyred or die naturally.

You see, The "Everlasting Gospel" is just that everlasting. What is it's purpose in heaven when men who have received Christ and have reconciled to the Father by His blood?" Is the everlasting good news going to be preached in heaven as well? The gospel is for men on planet earth, and it will be preached forever.

The LORD told me ten years ago to "Be Ready", ever since that time, I had been uneasy in my spirit regarding what was coming in our future. Recession, Depression, War, Chaos, who knows. But I do know that there is going to be a major revival that will be worldwide, and I know that I am going to be apart of that revival. I was born for a purpose!

This is how we are to be prepared:

Put God first, develop a relationship with Him by spending as much time with Him as much as you can. If you want to go to the movies, trash the idea, spend it with God. God will meet with us if we meet with Him. "Draw nigh unto me and I'll draw nigh unto you". Jesus would spend all nights at times in prayer on a mountain, and then meet the people in the morning. Moses spent 40 days fasting in the mountain without any food or water, God was his sustenance, for man shall not live by bread alone.

Read His word, it's not so much that we need to understand it, it's important that we read it, the holy Ghost will take that which we have hid in your heart and quicken it(make the word alive) when we need it.

Clear off debts and mortgages(which I am doing now)

It's all about relationship with our Father.

I was talking to a friend the other day about what was happening in the world and what might be coming on the earth and her answer to me was we were't going to be here then so why bother talking about it.

Believers who talk this way, don't prepare. To me they are the Sunday morning church goers, and thats the only time of the week they go. When you study the word, your bound to come face to face with hard facts that a pretrib teaching is not in the word, neither is there a seven year tribulation, however, in the world ye shall have tribulation.

R

rowdy2 Jul 8, 2007

Reply to Hmmhmm

I believe the last dispensation ended at the sound of the seventh trump, and Israel and their temple of sacrifice ended and were taken out of the way and the dispensation of grace by faith begin.

Revelation 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I believe the prince of the air was loosened for a short time at the death of Jesus on he cross until on the fiftieth day after the second day of Passover when the Holy Ghost descended on the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost.

With out the teachings of Jesus you can not know God for Jesus hath declared him Jesus the Word of God, and with out God how could we ever know Jesus His Son for God has declared Him as His Son in whom He was well pleased, the Word of God, the Risen Glorified Son of God and the Holy Ghost whom we have not seen but these three bare witness that God is one...

1 John 5

1. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15. And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Eddie

Reply to HollyB

I believe Jesus came the first time in the flesh and by the water and blood birth.
I believe Jesus came the Second time in the spirit and given me understanding that I know Him and am in Him and He will never leave or forsake me and I born of water, blood and the Spirit and the Spirit bear witness on earth that Jesus lives.

Eddie

Reply to Compliments
I agree, we Christians collectively are the Temple of the Living God.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

1 Corinthians 3
16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

The Spirit of Truth teaches us on the precepts of God but I can’t explain in a way to fit a different context with out letting leaven of my own in so when I came to the point where you did that I wanted to understand what people were saying about rapture, preterism, I received no help from the Spirit of Truth so be it...

Eddie

Reply to Intens4Him

Intens4Him wrote
“ our belief about it isn't an essential part of being redeemed!!”

I agree because I have hope because Jesus lives and I through the earnest of the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith and not my understanding..

Eddie

H

HollyB Jul 9, 2007

reply to Eddie...I also agree with you that my hope lies in Christ crucified and that we have victory both today and in the future because as He said on the cross..."It is finished."

With that, Christ fulfilled all of Moses and the prophets, and He stands both today, this very hour, through the Holy Spirit that dwells within us since the Day of Pentecost,, and in the future, when I believe He is coming back physically as He said He would on the Great Day of the Lord to reign here on earth.

I guess no matter where anyone stands on the issue of the rapture and the resurrection, it is important that no one gets to anxious about world events because Christ specifically warned us, the saints, not to fear or worry over the things to come, but rather to be on guard...

"And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 'Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?' And Jesus began to say to them, 'See that no one leads you astray, Many will come in my name saying, 'I am He!' and they will lead many astray. And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places,; there will be famines. These are but the beginning of the birth pains. But be on your guard: For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." Mark 13:3-13

Now I believe here and in the passages to continue in Mark that Jesus is speaking to the disciples both about events that are about to take place for the early church and about a future tribulation in which many saints of God will be persecuted much worse than the early persecution of the church...as quoted in Scripture again in Mark...

But IN THOSE DAYS, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. AND THEN they will see the Son of Man COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." Mark 13:24-27

So what these Scriptures and the Spirit says to me at this time is to be on guard, and that persecutions and tribulations are sure to come and truly, are now here, as saints around the world are being martyred as I type. But specifically at the end of this, the church age will be a great tribulation such as never has been before and these great cosmic events will occur (and they haven't yet as far as I see). But Christ's key message is not to worry so much about preparation beforehand as the Spirit will give you the strength and the words to say to those who oppose you. We must as Christ's servants pray fervently for daily strength to endure whatever may come and to love our enemies as they come against us, that they may yet be saved by His grace.

I still believe that the Scriptures speak of the rapture or the catching away of the saints before this great tribulation is to take place because the purpose of the judgments poured out by God on this world during the great tribulation spoken of in Revelation is the last chance before God's final judgment for many to be saved. Revelation speaks of the first judgments as wrath mixed with grace (as many will be saved during the persecutions that follow even to the death), and then judgments without mixture which means no grace and these judgments are against all God's enemies and none will be saved out of this period. The finale is the battle at the plains of Megiddo (Armageddon)Christ will come to battle with Satan and all his followers and this Second Coming he is coming as Judge and not a lamb of grace (Revelation 19:11-21)

But the point of all the Gospel and Scriptures is that Jesus was, He is, and He will be forevermore king and even now sits at the right hand of God the Father!

I pray that everyone who reads these discussions, especially if not a Christian understands that though we may differ in our understanding, that one thing is crystal clear..the time is now to give yourself to Christ and repent of sins, because He WILL come as judge and you and I are not promised our next breath..and then it will too late. Call on Jesus today.

For any Christians interested in another view on the rapture however, I have read a book called The Key to Understanding Revelation by Arthur Bloomfield. It has a pretribulation view of rapture, but his insights on future events are stirring even if you don't believe the rapture will occur beforehand. It stirs me up to long for revival for the world..because I want everyone to be able to partake in the days to come. They will be BEYOND OUR WILDEST IMAGINATION as eye has not seen, nor ear heard what God has prepared for those who love HIM.

GOD BLESS!

R

rowdy2 Jul 9, 2007

Reply to HollyB

I believe Jesus came to the 144,000 that were the elect of the twelve tribes in the same clouds and gory as His Apostles saw on the mount of transfiguration and clouds of glory that witnesses saw during His ascension. The comments Jesus made about end times were to them and only concerned the world and the 144,000 Jewish saints before the dispensation of grace because Jesus was still teaching his Israeli disciples to keep the law but Jesus taught the Samaritans that

John 4: 23-26
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ, when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

The Jews were to suffer birth pains and they did. He said they going to suffer the beginning of the birth pains” which I believe was the birth of a new generation of truth and grace because Salvation is of the Jews for the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ the seed that the whole world is blessed by. I believe there is no ending too His Kingdom. I believe time is for carnal thinking

Paul said
Galatians 4
9. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10. Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Eddie