The NINE LIES of Today's church by Andrew Strom.

sermonindex Apr 20, 2004

The NINE LIES of Today's churchby Andrew Strom.It is a sad fact that today's church is deceiving itself in some very crucial areas. Below are some plain facts (-absolutely true)that may shock a few people:1. "Ask Jesus into our heart" is not in the Bible. Neither is "Give your heart to the Lord", or repeating a "sinner's prayer". These practices do not exist in Scripture at all. The subject of salvation is the most important subject in the Bible and we are being lied to about it. These doctrines are a total fabrication. They were invented to make salvation "quick and convenient". Many church members today who are relying on these things are clearly not 'saved' at all.2. Church buildings do not exist in the Bible. They were invented around 200-300 AD, when the church was in serious decline. Only a backslidden church could fall so far away from the simplicity of the early church. Church buildings are anti-New Testament, and bring with them a host of problems and traditions. It was basically when the church fell into the hands of Rome that this concept of the "cathedral" really took over. And we are still spending millions on these monuments today.3. The "one pastor runs everything" model is totally unscriptural. Far from running everything, in the book of Acts we find the word "pastor" NOT EVEN USED ONCE. (-The early church did have strong leaders and elders. But it was never a "one man band" like we see today. And never was it so "controlling" either).4. "Tithing" is not a New Testament practice at all. And it is being shamefully abused by today's preachers. In the New Testament we are told to give cheerfully - whatever we purpose in our hearts to give. Telling people that they MUST give 10% to the church or they are "robbing God" is totally sick - and a money-grubbing way of twisting Scripture. There is no evidence that the apostles EVER preached 'tithing' to New Testament believers. It was clearly regarded as an Old Testament practice. 5. The words "prosper" or 'prosperity' were NEVER used by Jesus at all - and only exist a couple of times in the entire New Testament. Yet greedy preachers have built whole kingdoms upon them. The words - "sell what you have and give to the poor" and "deceitfulness of riches" and "you cannot serve God and mammon" and "woe to you that are rich" were DEFINITELY used by Jesus and the apostles. But we don't hear these things preached too much, do we?6. There were no Bible Colleges, Seminaries or degrees in the New Testament. The only people who seemed to have "Bible Schools" were the Scribes and Pharisees! The apostles were simple fishermen and tax collectors. It is likely that a number of them could not even read or write. What was their "qualification" for being in the ministry? Simply that they had SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH JESUS. The fact that people expect a "professional clergy" today with degrees from Bible College has helped to make the church sicker and more unscriptural than ever. Simple humble people with a calling from God often cannot get to minister because they do not have a "piece of paper" to make them 'qualified'. Yet another disaster for the church.7. There is almost no evidence whatsoever that the early church had their "main meeting" on a Sunday. They gathered together 'from house to house' virtually every day! There were no church buildings. They did not dress up and "go to church". There were no denominations. There were no separate groups with different 'labels'. They lived their lives together - all the Christians in the local area. Love and fellowship and 'koinonia' were as natural to them as breathing. And the apostles in Jerusalem preached every day at huge open-air gatherings. Not "hidden away" inside four walls. This was truly a "street church" in every way. 8. The idea that you can replace the moving of the Holy Spirit with programs, programs and more programs just shows how low we have sunk. Man made programs are everywhere today. The early church had much more of God and much less of 'man'.9. We preach a 'humanistic' Jesus today. -A Jesus who exists mainly for our own "happiness". A Santa Claus who wants to rain down continual blessings upon us. A God of grace and mercy without judgement, righteousness or truth. Our gross misrepresentation of who Jesus really is, is one of the most serious offenses of the modern church. Today's church seems to worship a "plastic" Jesus - one that she has made in her ownimage. What an offense to God.A lot of preachers are well aware that there is something very wrong with the church today. They know there is little 'fear of the Lord'. They know there is no deep repentance or deep moving of the Holy Spirit. They know that it is just the same old "game" being played every week. A lot of them are very aware of this. But they will not do anything about it. They will not rock the boat. And they will "squash" anyone who comes along trying to do something. They do not want a real "shaking". There is too much to lose. They have their careers and their little 'kingdoms' at stake. This is the real truth of the matter. This is where the rubber truly meets the road.That is why God is about to bring "Great Reformation". He will not put up with these 'hirelings' any longer. He will not have them as leaders over His people. A lot of them are about to "lose their heads". They will never lead God's people again.This is what true 'Reformation' is all about. It is the process of replacing the old leadership and the old lies. -It is David taking over from 'Saul'.There is a 'New Wineskin' coming. In fact it is upon us. There is a new leadership arising - many of them trained in the 'wilderness' for such a time as this. The hour is now here. LET THE NEW LEADERS ARISE! The sad fact is that today's church has sunk so low that it is almost a matter of people needing to be RESCUED OUT OF HER. I never thought I would say something as radical as that, but it is the truth.The entire church is living a lie. Many inside her are told continuously that they are "OK" - that they are saved and headed for heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth. Multitudes of them are headed directly for hell. The systemized LYING that is going on has deceived the leaders and the people alike. It is the blind leading the blind. We need to contend for these people - desperately. Much of the church is "lost". They are mired in deception - an entire system of deception.PLEASE send me your thoughts and comments and responses to this email, my friends. If other people have responses then please send those in also. We want to make these things a serious topic of discussion. Our email address here is:prophetic@revivalschool.comGod bless you all!Kindest regards in Christ,Andrew Strom.

R

rocklife Apr 20, 2004

These are powerful and thought-provoking statements. I pray Christians would be true to the Bible and to Jesus' teachings, and not to man made religion.

P

philologos Apr 20, 2004

Greg quotes Andrew Strom as saying "The entire church is living a lie.To be able to make this statement you would need to know the 'entire church' and have the authority to 'judge' it. I know churches and individuals that hold none of these '9 lies'. No one has the right to speak for the 'entire church' and no one has the right to judge it. The 'entire church', of course, would include the one who made the comment.The call to repentance must always have a currently available application. 'him that hath ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches'. There must be a command that I can obey personally. The keynote of genuine conviction and the call to repentance is that sense that God is saying 'thou art the man'. A sense of responsibility then descends upon the hearer whose testimony becomes 'against thee. thee only have I sinned'. We need to be cautious about blanket judgments they will bring despair rather than repentance.I am aware, of course, that this quotation is from something larger and personal responsibility may well have been addressed in the complete article. I just want to raise this single cautioning voice that to use this kind of all embracing statement is ultimately counterproductive. It produces a sense of 'this is outside my power to change it and therefore not my responsibility.' Just my 'thoughts and comments and responses to this email'.

H

HakkaMin Apr 20, 2004

Amen, Ron! What you wrote is such an insightful reply to Andrew's article ... and dead on. Thanks for helping to keep us centered in our responses to these kind of "blanket judgments" against the precious Bride of Christ.

M

moreofHim Apr 20, 2004

:-)

C

CJaKfOrEsT Apr 20, 2004

Hmmm....the word balanced comes to mind. I think it's dangerous to make these blanket judgements about God's bride. Although I agree with some of the facts in the statements provided, there are consequences that need to be considered to pronouncing these judgements.1. "Ask Jesus into our heart" is not in the Bible. Neither is "Give your heart to the Lord", or repeating a "sinner's prayer". These practices do not exist in Scripture at all.This is true. The sinner's prayer is not scriptural as the means to salvation. However, I have found this to be a tool that can be a hook in the jaw to bring someone into the place where they can make a real decision. When I used to lead youth, I was trained to make sure that some one who responded to an altar call understood the decision that they made by laying out the gospel to them in as much detail as time would allow, making sure that they understood the conditions. I myself was brought into the place of repentance after saying the prayer. A copy of Winkie Pratney's "Youth Aflame" was handed to me. In it I read a similar challenge to the end of Finney's 3rd chapter of Revival Lectures, to repent or stop reading. I knew from reading that, that I this christian thing didn't work the way they said, that I hadn't given it 100%, so I couldn't blame God. The Problem isn't that we ask people to say a prayer, the problem is that we don't properly explain what their decision entails. Another problem is that too many preachers use psychological pressure tactics to trick people into getting "saved".2. Church buildings do not exist in the Bible. They were invented around 200-300 AD, when the church was in serious decline. Only a backslidden church could fall so far away from the simplicity of the early church.We need to understand that most of the preachers who are published on this site are or were church pastors, who held services in church buildings. Do we need to disregard to the likes of Tozer, Finney, Ravenhill, Spurgeon, Booth etc. After all they subscribed to this deception. Where do we draw the line here. Do we stop calling senior church leader's pastor, reverend, or father? After all, God is no respecter of persons. I am a member of a church that has a building with an excellent location that alot of people drive past. We get alot of people who "just happened to drive past, and thought I’d drop in", only to get ambushed by God, seeing the kind of love, that only true christians can express, acted out, and desired to know more. We are negotiating to buy land to build a complex that will include food & clothing distribution points, and training facilities to be a resource for the community. We also have home cell group meetings during the week to build relationships, and disciple believers, as well as an outreach tool. On the flip side, there are plenty of people who come to church out of mere obligation to tradition. The ultimate question is do we throw out the baby with the bath water?3. The "one pastor runs everything" model is totally unscriptural.Maybe we're just really advanced down here in Australia, but with the exception of very few small mainline parishes, there are few churches down here that follow the "headless-chook" pastor model. Even alot of catholic churches down here have cell groups as the major part of their strategy.4. "Tithing" is not a New Testament practice at all. And it is being shamefully abused by today's preachers. In the New Testament we are told to give cheerfully - whatever we purpose in our hearts to give.There is not one mention of tithing in the New Testament. Nor is there mention of abandoning it. However there is this quote from the words of Jesus:Mat 5:17-20 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.The book of Malachi was one of the prophets that Jesus was referring to. Tithing was actually established in Israel by Moses in the Law(Lev27:30,32;Deut12:17;14:22,23,28). We also have the problem of our respected revivalists Nicholson referred to holding back the tithe as robbing God in Hindrances to Holiness. Again I say, balance. I have been challenged that my personal decision to work toward praying 3 hours a day (No. I'm not there yet:-() will be a hard thing to find the time to do. If I was to say that I was having trouble tithing due to excess bill, I would be told by most that if I tied, my bills would fall into place. It's not a matter of wrong doctrine, as much as wrong priorities.5. The words "prosper" or 'prosperity' were NEVER used by Jesus at all - and only exist a couple of times in the entire New Testament.I wont go into this one, due to the fact that I'm yet to be convinced scripturally either way. There are many good arguments either way (even when you disregard the "name it, claim it" type preachers). Although, again I say balance. One of the greatest intercessors that I personally know is a owns and operates a multi million dollar construction company, whilst praying between 3-8hrs a day. He personally funds the spread of prayer and repentance resources through the body of Christ, building of churches and runs prayer retreats that emphasise deep repentance, while refusing to accept a love offering.6. There were no Bible Colleges, Seminaries or degrees in the New Testament. The only people who seemed to have "Bible Schools" were the Scribes and Pharisees!At the risk of sounding disrespectful (if I haven't already been), we need to stop reading the likes of Tozer and Finney. After all:During his lifetime he served as a teacher, lawyer, evangelist, pastor, theology professor, and college president (Oberlin College, Ohio).Someone once told me, when I was thinking of attending bible college (which God closed the door on), to pray hard about it, for college has ruined as many christians as has grown them. Although I have known plenty of people who have been turned off christianity whilst attending bible college, the question would be, were they really christians before they went?7. There is almost no evidence whatsoever that the early church had their "main meeting" on a Sunday."Act 20:7 KJV And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight." - the only actual reference to christians participating in the Lord's supper.8. The idea that you can replace the moving of the Holy Spirit with programs, programs and more programs just shows how low we have sunk. Man made programs are everywhere today. The early church had much more of God and much less of 'man'.I'll respond to this with a quote from Praying Hyde:In Every revival there is a divine side and a human side. In the Welsh revival the divine element comes out prominently. Evan Roberts, the leader under God, seems in a sense to have been a passive agent, mightily moved upon in the night seasons by the Holy Spirit. There was no organization and very little preaching-comparatively little of the human element. The Sialkot revival which is no to be described, while just as certainly sent down from heaven, seems not so spontaneous. There was under God, organization; there was a certain amount of definite planning, and there were seasons of long continued prayer.Organization and planning are not evil, reliance on programs is what is. Reality is, if we do away with programs, we need to do away with prayer meetings, regular prayer and web sites like this. The real tragedy in this statement is when we allow the moving of the Holy Spirit to be simulated (if I need to explain this, you're better off not knowing about it).. We preach a 'humanistic' Jesus today. -A Jesus who exists mainly for our own "happiness". A Santa Claus who wants to rain down continual blessings upon us. A God of grace and mercy without judgement, righteousness or truth. Our gross misrepresentation of who Jesus really is, is one of the most serious offences of the modern church. Today's church seems to worship a "plastic" Jesus - one that she has made in her own image. What an offence to God.Again, I agree with the other posts that are being offered, not all churches are like this. There are also two sides to this coin. On one hand, we see Jesus misrepresented as a Santa Claus giving out free salvation. On the other hand, Jesus is also portrayed as an executioner sending people to hell.To the first group I mention John 3:18-20:Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God's only Son. This is how the judgment works: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil. Those who do evil things hate the light and will not come to the light, because they do not want their evil deeds to be shown up.[GNB]Jesus doesn't need to condemn us if we walk in darkness, for this is the very reason we are already condemned.To the second group, John 3:17:For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its saviour.[GNB]God's plan is not to condemn soul but to save them. Before I get branded a hypocrite, let me sum up this point with this statement. The cross is the ultimate mixture of judgement and mercy. There is no further salvation for those who reject it. There is no further judgement for those who fully embrace it.Tell them that as surely as I am the living LORD God, I don't like to see wicked people die. I enjoy seeing them turn from their sins and live. So if the Israelites want to live, they must stop sinning and turn back to me. [Eze 33:11 CEV]This really says it all.There is a 'New Wineskin' coming. In fact it is upon us. There is a new leadership arising - many of them trained in the 'wilderness' for such a time as this. The hour is now here. LET THE NEW LEADERS ARISE! The sad fact is that today's church has sunk so low that it is almost a matter of people needing to be RESCUED OUT OF HER. I never thought I would say something as radical as that, but it is the truth.The entire church is living a lie. Many inside her are told continuously that they are "OK" - that they are saved and headed for heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth. Multitudes of them are headed directly for hell. The systemized LYING that is going on has deceived the leaders and the people alike. It is the blind leading the blind. We need to contend for these people - desperately. Much of the church is "lost". They are mired in deception - an entire system of deception.Although there is some truth to this statement, there are some dangerous connotations to it. We risk forming yet another denomination through sectarianizing lukewarm christians. I am not saying that this is what Mr. Strom is suggesting, but I am saying that this is what people can get from it. After first hearing and reading Keith Green's What's Wrong With The Gospel I was tempted to run around pulling down the "deception I could see around me", when God chastised me for my judgemental behaviour, and commanded be to take it to the prayer closet, and lead others to join me, one at a time. I'm not saying that this is the only answer, just that this is how God has me addressing this issue. Don't forget that Luther did not set out to start the Lutheran Church, he sought the reform the catholic church to true christianity.Mr Strom makes some very good points in this message, and I do not want to take away from the overall theme that the majority of the body of Christ is deceived in one way or another, because like it or not (and I hope not), this seems to be the norm. But don't forget, that every revival in history has started with a remnant, with the most prolific revivalist being under the submission of backslidden leadership. Why wouldn't we expect a global revival to start the same way.Some would say that the devil is winning this battle, I say the God is positioning his last day pray warriors in strategic places behind enemy lines, as it were (just don't forget that the church is not our enemy) where they can wield the greatest influence.If anyone has any objections to what I am saying, I'm open to correction (in fact I welcome it), as I have been wrong several times before, but I don't believe I am now. Please post any responses or Email them to cjakforest@hotmail.com.Yours in Christ,Aaron

sermonindex Apr 20, 2004

Greg quotes Andrew Strom as saying "The entire church is living a lie.Brother Ron, yes I am fully aware of what you mean. I have put this email article that Andrew Strom sent out for frutiful discussion. I don't fully agree with everything that is said, and I am sure there needs to be clarification on many points on Andrews side due to the small amount of description for each point. "The entire church is living a lie" by this statement I believe Andrew Strom is referring to the instutional church system, not the true body of Christ that you become a part of when you are re-born of God.The call to repentance must always have a currently available application. 'him that hath ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches'. There must be a command that I can obey personally. The keynote of genuine conviction and the call to repentance is that sense that God is saying 'thou art the man'. A sense of responsibility then descends upon the hearer whose testimony becomes 'against thee. thee only have I sinned'. That is a great truth you are bringing out Ron. But I do believe in corporate salvation, sanctification, judgement and also repentance. Israel was judged individually and also coporately, and indeed churches were also.Amen, Ron! What you wrote is such an insightful reply to Andrew's article ... and dead on. Thanks for helping to keep us centered in our responses to these kind of "blanket judgments" against the precious Bride of Christ.As I clarifyed above, I clearly think Strom is referring to a church system and not to the spiritual body of Christ. But I do think its good to be cautious about making these type of blanket statements, there are many people that are precious in God's site in churches that you could classify as instutional and dead. In every great revival a denomination essentially started, I think we are people of methodology and structure and we always want to have some sort of instution to what we are doing.I want to applaud your boldness in posting this. I wanted to post it myself but did not have the guts.Hi Chanin, I posted it not because I am in total agreeance with it but because I thought it would stir up some very good edifying conversation around it. But don't get me wrong there is alot of truth in it also at the same time.'CJaKfOrEsT' thanks for your comments there are alot of great things you touched upon.1. "Ask Jesus into our heart" is not in the Bible. Neither is "Give your heart to the Lord", or repeating a "sinner's prayer". These practices do not exist in Scripture at all.This is a very true statement and in the recent years I think its A.W. Tozer that brought this to the attention of the evangelical church. I think you don't find a sinners prayer or direct statement on how to save a person is because you can't really save a person yourself. Salvation is totally in the hands of God, its a supernatural act of God, not a choice of man in his mind to a statement of belief. I think Andrew Strom is 100% right when he says there is an "quick and convenient" gospel being given in our day. The process of childbirth takes time, energy, struggle, tears, heart-ache, but in the end its a glorious transformation. In the same way the process of a man going from darkness to light from death to life takes time and God is the person who brings about this transformation. That doesn't take out the means that God uses to get this accomplished, ie The Word of God, men, but primarly its a work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men. Salvation is a spiritual reality that is grasped in the spirit and mind, but needs to be made expertially real by God. This happens when a man or woman truley believes in their heart the provision God has given for salvation, and when they call out to God with all their heart He will hear them and heal them.2. Church buildings do not exist in the Bible. They were invented around 200-300 AD, when the church was in serious decline. Only a backslidden church could fall so far away from the simplicity of the early church.This is a tricky subject. But in any situation even in a home groups situation there is a form of goverment and instutionalization that happens. But the emphasis on building cathedrals and buildings is off-balance with the plain teaching of scripture.3. The "one pastor runs everything" model is totally unscriptural.I don't think the pastor runs the church totally but there is a need for spiritual responsibility to be taken for churches. John Wesley over looked the entire methodist movement, and when he died he gave that responsibility over to 120 men. What an amazing man of stature that could do the work of 120, Wesley said in his day the only other capable person to take over the Methodist church was the saintly John Fletcher. Surely these were men of another breed and were gifted and burdened of God to want ownership and pastorship over the souls entrusted to them. I see the same thing with the apostle paul and even moses and other characters. I would probably like to hear more on what Strom means by his 3rd statement here.4. "Tithing" is not a New Testament practice at all. And it is being shamefully abused by today's preachers.Acts 2:44-45 - All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Personally I belive that if we are truly a people purchased of God then we are all His. D.L. Moody stated: "the Old Testament rule for giving was 10% but the New Testament rule is 100%"5. The words "prosper" or 'prosperity' were NEVER used by Jesus at all - and only exist a couple of times in the entire New Testament.Surely if we rely on God fully he will supply our needs but if our master on earth was poor and despised. Woe unto you if you are rich and ladden with goods.6. There were no Bible Colleges, Seminaries or degrees in the New Testament. The only people who seemed to have "Bible Schools" were the Scribes and Pharisees!God works in all situations and I believe that there is benefit in going to bible school. Ravenhill said if he was ever to start a bible school he would start a school of prayer! What a privildge it would be to study under the likes of John Fletcher, Wesley, Whitfield, Ravenhill, etc. It was Fletcher who after teaching for 2 hours would say to the students that if they wanted to apply what was just taught come into the backroom, where he would with a group of students perservere with God in prayer for hours.7. There is almost no evidence whatsoever that the early church had their "main meeting" on a Sunday.This is true that the early church met essentially everyday and fellowshipped breaking bread. We have lost that community feel of being part of the body of Christ in our professional busy days.8. The idea that you can replace the moving of the Holy Spirit with programs, programs and more programs just shows how low we have sunk. Man made programs are everywhere today. The early church had much more of God and much less of 'man'.I think 'CJaKfOrEsT' said it very right here: "Organization and planning are not evil, reliance on programs is what is. Reality is, if we do away with programs, we need to do away with prayer meetings, regular prayer and web sites like this. The real tragedy in this statement is when we allow the moving of the Holy Spirit to be simulated (if I need to explain this, you're better off not knowing about it)."Although there is some truth to this statement, there are some dangerous connotations to it. We risk forming yet another denomination through sectarianizing lukewarm christians.This is a big concern I have with many people who are trying to segregate the spirit-filled believers from the lukewarm. My adomition is if you are spiritual then you should restore those who are weak. A lukewarm church that is on the verge of death is a prime candidate for revival. as finney states 'revival presuposes declension.' But I do agree and encourage Andrew Strom for stating many things that people are scared to even bring up in the church today. I ask you pray for Andrew Strom that he would be open to other peoples comments on his beliefs and also that he would speak bodly the truth of our need for revival to the church.

M

moreofHim Apr 20, 2004

:-)

C

crsschk Apr 20, 2004

Wondering if we could get some new message icons, how about like a little man standing up applauding! For now you will just have to use your imagination. Great replies all around. I think there is a lot of reading between the lines in what Andrew Strom is saying, a lot of it can be discerned by the use of the words "many" and "most" in those statements. I don't think the intention was ever for them to be blanket statements, would be kind of silly for instance if you took the church buildings to the logical extreme considering we just heard him preaching in one of those this past Sunday.But as he pointed out, the discrepancies between where the New Testament was and where we are as a whole are pretty vast.Something I have been mulling over a lot lately is what this really all boils down to. Namely genuine conversion, I think most of these problem areas would go away if we had real heart change at the outset, instead of having to go back-wards all the time. And that is what I really appreciate about what he is preaching, laying the foundations, getting back to the core issues:Sin, righteousness, judgement...Repentance (gasp!)The bad news before the good news, the horse and cart back in their proper order...As he and one of our fond members like to say "normal Christianity"My two mites.

R

rookie Apr 20, 2004

The love of the truth that comes from Scripture will discern where God is moving. In a time of backsliding, God called Jeremiah to prophesy against His people. Jeremiah 1:17-19. That included the faithless as well as the faithful. For the first group condemnation, for the second group a call to overcome. Jesus in Revelation warns His church that they must overcome. Few will be found faithful in the end times. The question is who belongs to the Church of Philadelphia?In ChristJeff

P

philologos Apr 20, 2004

Hi Gregyou write "The entire church is living a lie" by this statement I believe Andrew Strom is referring to the instutional church system, not the true body of Christ that you become a part of when you are re-born of God.I hesitated for more than a while before I posted my comments. You will know from some of my utterances that you have on your site that I have more than a little sympathy with many of Andrew's statements. In my mind I distinguish very clearly between Christianity and Christendom, and between the Church and this counterfeit that the world calls 'the Church'. I think there is also a difference between Reformation and Revival although at times they come together. There is a great need for examination and 'reformation' of our ways of doing things. 'If it ain't broke, don't mend it' is not a legitimate Christian response. The good is always the enemy of the best. I have been agreeing with most of Andrew's statements for over 30 years but I know from painful experience that a 'new wineskin' is not necessarily better than an 'old' unless the 'new' had God as its maker. And a 'new' wineskin is has no more worth than an 'old' unless it contains 'new wine'.But 'reformation' is not 'revival' and will not produce it. I have met men and women with 'humble and contrite spirits' in many denominations and in none. I have strong, and I hope biblical, views about just about everything! But I know many 'at whose feet I would gladly sit' who have equally strong AND DIFFERENT views. As a teacher I have a strong temptation to pedantry; I know my weaknesses here. I have copied a comment from the life of Anthony Norris Groves into my Bible and I remind myself of it often. It reads "what a blessing it is that the Lord's heart is so large, that He can help whenever He sees some good thing; whereas man withdraws, because he sees some evil thing, which is generally found to mean something that wounds his own self-love in the little scheme he had set up as perfection." I have had enough of my own 'little schemes set up as perfection' to jump on the 'little schemes set up as perfection' of others.The 'institutional church' is really no church at all; it is a common-interest religious pressure group. The OT promise, if we can transpose it into a NT context is 'if my people who are called by my Name'. Only His people, those who hear His voice, can respond to this call.

sermonindex Apr 20, 2004

That is why God is about to bring "Great Reformation". He will not put up with these 'hirelings' any longer. He will not have them as leaders over His people. A lot of them are about to "lose their heads". They will never lead God's people again. This is what true 'Reformation' is all about. It is the process of replacing the old leadership and the old lies. -It is David taking over from 'Saul'.Hi Ron, I think your concern is very legitiment. In most cases it seems to me that God will send revival in an attempt to revive a backslidden church. In most cases there is not a new thing being done, or a cutting away or coming out of within the relgious setup. God's desire I believe is to revive the church and that means especially churches that seem no more as you said 'common-interest religious pressure group'. What we call the reformation was really intended on Gods part to revive the catholic church. But followers of Luther were more seperationist, thats just my take on it.Truly the need of the church of Jesus Christ is prophets to arise and proclaim Gods heart to the people. This call will be a call of judgement but at the same time a call of compassion to repent.but I know from painful experience that a 'new wineskin' is not necessarily better than an 'old' unless the 'new' had God as its maker. And a 'new' wineskin is has no more worth than an 'old' unless it contains 'new wine'.Those are 2 powerful statements and the latter one deserves some godly reflection.It does seem like a easy way out to just dump the bad and start a new group of people that have it right. I feel like I am in that situation with my home church were I really have a hard time excepting how the church is working and the passion and giving of the peoples life to God. I am trying to get Gods heart across to people in regards to revival, hell, judgement, filling of the spirit and many other topics that are totally neglected in the church. Sometimes I get fustrated with getting through to people and then just feel the inclination to leave. I believe thats the way that the devil wants me to go, leaving people who need to be roused by the Spirit of God. The reason you or me am blessed by God and filled with His spirit is to be the body of Christ to others and share our giftings and revelations.

R

rocklife Apr 20, 2004

A comment about revival in the church. I personally don't think most of the revival will be with the current church members (some, but not most). Jesus and Paul didn't spend too much time and energy trying to convert the religious. They did a little, but most of the time they went for people who knew they needed help. I do pray for laborers to be sent into the Lord's harvest, as Jesus directs in the Gospels. "Sometimes God answers our prayers through our children," is a quote that comes to mind (David Barton). Rather than waiting for revival within Christendom, I will purposely train my child to fear and respect God and train him the way he should go, and that will include- eventually- things like reading Fox's book of Martyrs, that life isn't always wonderful on earth because of one's love for God. (I say fear because that's the beginning of wisdom, and at the same time, I show him how much I love God and revere Him all the time, not just in word but in deed also.) The fire within me cannot be quenched, whether there's revival or not.Dear Lord, I pray for laborers to be sent into the Lord's harvest, who will faithfully and truthfully preach the whole counsel of God, in Jesus' name, amen.

D

DFCM Apr 20, 2004

Hi Andrew,I must say you put a lot of time in this post :-) and I must say I do agree with you on some of them. but I do have a question for you.Can you prove that Jesus was poor? I mean think about it. 1. Look at what he got when we was born? remember the 3 wise men? Do you know how much that was worth?2. He must of had some money, because he hired 12 workers for him, that he had to keep up. And Judas was skimming off the top and the others didnt know it.3. Did you ever stop and think why those Roman Guards wanted his robe? Surely those Pagan Guards didnt think he was Jesus, for they mocked him. HUM they must of been some very expensive cloths huh? I mean why would they want rages?4. Even the fish gave him money!Well I think I have made my point on that issuse. But please do tell me were it said that he was poor.Also, didn't he say go preach to the Poor, so they wouldn't have to be poor no more?God BlessDaryl

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InTheLight Apr 21, 2004

Well I think I have made my point on that issuse. But please do tell me were it said that he was poor.And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. (Matthew 8:20)Animals and birds has better earthly provisions than Jesus. Jesus humbled Himself in every way, for our sakes He became poor, very poor. Jesus submitted to this so that in all repects He could humble Himself and also to show us the foolishness of chasing worldly wealth. The scribe who Jesus was speaking to in the above verse must have been thinking he might come into worldly riches, Jesus was pointing out his error, professing His own poverty. Jesus submitted Himself to the disgrace of living in poverty, He and His disciples lived on charity;And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance. (Luke 8:2-3)In Christ,Ron

D

DFCM Apr 21, 2004

I strongly disagree with you brother :-)Yes he did empety himself, but you still didnt show me where he said he was poor. Also how can you explain the rest of my post? Why would pagan guards want rages, if he was that poor? lolGod Bless

sermonindex Apr 21, 2004

I must say you put a lot of time in this post and I must say I do agree with you on some of them. but I do have a question for you. Can you prove that Jesus was poor? I mean think about it.Hi Darly welcome to sermonindex. How did you find the site? have you seen the audio sermon downloads? Just to clarify my name is Greg and I run this site, I posted Andrew Strom's article to stimulate some intresting conversation around his article. With that said onto your points.1. Look at what he got when we was born? remember the 3 wise men? Do you know how much that was worth?Jesus was given gifts surely when he was a child but I wouldn't say he was rich. I think that act signified him being the king of Israel the promised messiah, and by the way the scriptures don't say there were three! it could have been more. Satan came to Christ in the desert and offered him all the kingdoms. But isn't that a contradiction to offer the world to the one who made it?2. He must of had some money, because he hired 12 workers for him, that he had to keep up. And Judas was skimming off the top and the others didnt know it.The disciples weren't hired pay, but it was a ministry calling and they left all and followed him. So the disciples left all their belongings, jobs, to follow Christ. During the feeding of the 5000 they exclaimed to Christ who is going to buy bread for all these people, they obviously couldn't pick up the tab.3. Did you ever stop and think why those Roman Guards wanted his robe? Surely those Pagan Guards didnt think he was Jesus, for they mocked him. HUM they must of been some very expensive cloths huh? I mean why would they want rages?I think the reconition of Jesus amongst the people made the clothing a sort of vintage material in their minds. Is there a roman custom in relation to keeping the clothes of influntial people?4. Even the fish gave him money!Well Jesus turned water into wine also, but do you think he started a winery business? You are taking scriptures blatantly out of context to Jesus overall mission and purpose in this world. He became poor that we may become rich!! Do you think for second that, that means material riches? if so you are sadly disullutioned.

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InTheLight Apr 21, 2004

but you still didnt show me where he said he was poor.I feel very confident in my views on this passage from Matthew 8 and I believe I am in good company with all the well known commentators. Jesus was making a declaration of His own poverty, it seems by far the best interpretation. Please consider this prayerfully, is it possible that you're allowing your views to dictate your interpretation of this passage instead of letting Scripture dictate your views? Why would pagan guards want rages, if he was that poor? lolThen the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.(John 19:23-24)It seems the only thing special about the coat was that it was seamless, there is no mention of its worth. The soldiers only wanted it whole because a seamless garment would only unravel and end up completely worthless. They probably hoped that one of Jesus' followers might want to buy it. I believe they cast lots simply so that Scripture would be fulfilled.In Christ,Ron

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DFCM Apr 21, 2004

Thank you all for your postsI can see now what the line of thought is on this forum.We are to be poor and just as very poor as Jesus.Hum, well that explains this webiste disire to not to pay the tithes :-) they don't have no money to.Anyway this will be my last post on this topic. I can see that I must be alone person, when I think of Jesus as being wealthy. I guess those seemless garments were cheap. :-)And I guess Judas the treasurer was only counting pennies :-), I can see your point on my issues, for I too believed your views on this poor business as well, until I started to believing God for it. I have found that I am in a Covenant with God, and what He has is mine, and what I have is his. I ask and God Gives. Works really good. Its a term called " Hesed"I love you guys in Christ, but I do hope you guys come out of this poor stuff and broken ol chrisitanity. For we are the Rightouness of Christ. We are Heir to God. We we should have the same mind of Christ, that considered it not robbery to consider himself equal with God. :-)God Bless Brother and Sisters

K

KeithLaMothe Apr 21, 2004

Don't stop posting yet, if you don't mind, I don't think the discussion has been allowed to conclude.I'm not sure what you're getting at, but perhaps you would benefit from listening to this message by David Wilkerson:https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2I'd also like to recount Leonard Ravenhill's summary of John Wesley's financial behavior:"John died in 1791, converted at 35. Turn that round it makes 53. Add them together it makes 88. Because he was saved at 35, preached for 53 years. And you know what he left when he died? He left a handful of books, a faded Geneva gown that he preached in all over England, six silver spoons somebody gave him, six pound notes, “give one to each of the poor men that carry me to my grave.” And that’s all he left: six pound notes, six silver spoons, a handful of books, a Geneva gown and ah… there's something else... what was it, the other thing? Oh, I know, something else he left, the Methodist Church.He could have died as rich as your famous TV preacher Sunday. Sure he made money, and he built orphanages. Sure he made money, he printed bibles. Sure he made money. He compiled, with Charles, the Methodist hymnbook and look at his orphanages.And he died worth about thirty dollars. He printed bibles. He printed hymnbooks. He financed missionaries to go across the earth. That’s the way to use your money. You think of the reward. Why, in God’s name, do you think it says don’t lay up treasure on earth? Lay up treasure in heaven."It's included in:https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2903Do I think Judas was counting/stealing pennies? No, I think Jesus' group handled a great deal of money, but I don't think Jesus or His disciples kept it or used it to buy material things beyond that which was necessary (i.e. no luxuries). Instead, I think it was used (and used promptly) to tend to the needy.edit:and I have no problem with contributing 10% of my income to the ministry, indeed (if I may say it without boasting, for it is by God's grace alone) I contribute significantly more than 10% of my income, and doing so is a great joy for me. What I'm not certain of is whether the practice of "tithing" is for the New Testament Church. That said, I think we should all treat 100% of "our" money as if it were God's and God's alone, so living in luxury while Biblical ministries go under-funded (and you know about them) is inexcusable. Remember the rich man and Lazarus.