Daniel 8:13-14, experienced scholars required

I don't relate to the word Scholar, but that is the length of the little horns rule - the anti-Christ. Back to Dan 7:25 again and Rev 13:5.

The key is Dan 8:17 So he came near beside my place. And when he came, I was afraid and fell on my face. But he said to me, Understand, O son of man, for the vision is for the time of the end. And - Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Some folks only translate this as far as Antiochus, but most prophecies have dual interpretations, the thens and nows.

If that were not so, our Bibles would be too large to carry around. :-) God is Good.

Pretty much we are 1/3 the way through of Dan 8 - about up to 8:8 now, just waiting on the little horn to rise up from the he goat.

Ha, I'll give ya Keil and Delitzsch on that one Eli. I got my calculator out than decided, let's let these guys screw our heads around. :-?

They do a great O.T. Commentary though, but most of these guys aren't the best for NOW, as you said regarding those things which are sealed, though I strongly believe we seeing the un-sealing now. You can pick somethings from their commentary and update them to current events easy enough, I'm sure.

Here's the boys anyhow ~~

Dan_8:13-14
In addition to what has been already seen and communicated in the vision, a further vision unfolds itself, by which there is conveyed to the prophet disclosures regarding the duration of the oppression of the people of God by the little horn. Daniel hears a holy one, i.e., an angel (see under Dan_4:10), talking. What he said is not recorded. But while he is talking, another angel interrupts him with the question as to the duration of the affliction, and this is done that Daniel may hear the answer. Therefore the first angel immediately turns himself to Daniel, and, addressing him, makes known to him the information that was desired.
The אלי (to me), Dan_8:14, is not, according to the old versions, to be changed into אליו (to him). What Hitzig says in justification of אליו is of no weight; cf. Kran. The angel that talked is designated by פּלמוני, quidam, nescio quis, as not being more particularly definable. The question condenses the contents of Dan_8:10-12 : “Till how long is the vision, etc.?” החזון is not the action, but the contents of the vision, the thing seen. The contents of the vision are arranged in the form of appositions: that which is continual and the desolating wickedness, for: the vision of that which is continual and of the desolation. The meaning of this apposition is more particularly defined by the further passage following asyndetos: to give up the sanctuary as well as the host to destruction. שׁמם after the definite noun without the article, which is sometimes wanting (Jer_2:21; Eze_39:27; cf. Ew. §293), does not mean being benumbed, confounded, but laid waste, fallen into ruin; thus the wickedness which consists in laying waste. שׁמם cannot be understood transitively, since שׁמם and משׁמם are placed over against each other in Dan_9:27.
In the answer, עד is to be interpreted as in the question: till 2300 evening-mornings have been, or have passed, thus: 2300 evening-mornings long, so (=then) the sanctuary is brought into its right state. צדק primarily means to be just, whence the meaning is derived to justify, which is not here suitable, for it must be followed by, from the defilement of the desolation. The restoration of the temple to its right condition is, it is true, at the same time a justification of it from its desolation, and it includes in it the restoration of the permanent worship.
The interpretation of the period of time, 2300 evening-mornings, named by the angel is beset with difficulty. And first the verbal import of בּקר ערב is doubtful. Among recent interpreters, Berth., Häv., v. Leng., Maur., and Horm. (Weiss. u. Erf. p. 295) understand by its days consisting of morning and evening (twenty-four hours); others, as Bleek, Kirmss, Ewald, Hitzig, Wieseler (who, however, in his treatise, Die 70 Wochen, u.s.w., p. 115ff., defends the first explanation), Kran., and Delitzsch, are of opinion that evening-morning is particularly reckoned with reference to the offering of a morning and an evening sacrifice each day, so that 2300 evening-mornings make only 1150 whole days. But there is no exegetical foundation for this latter opinion. It is derived only from a comparison, or rather an identification, of this passage with Dan_7:25; Dan_12:11., and Dan_9:27; and therewith it is proved that, according to 1 Macc. 1:54, 59, cf. 4:52, the desolation of the sanctuary by the worship of idols under Antiochus Epiphanes lasted not longer than three years and ten days, and that from Dan_12:11 it extends only to 1290 days. But these arguments rest on assertions which must first be justified. The passages Dan_7:25 and Dan_9:27 cannot be here taken into account, because they do not speak of Antiochus Epiphanes, and the 1290 days (1335 days, Dan_12:11.) do not give 2300 evening-mornings, that we can and may at once identify these statements with this before us. In Dan_12:11 the terminus a quo of the 1290 days is unquestionably the putting away or the removal of the תּמיד (daily sacrifice), and the giving (placing, raising up) of the abomination that maketh desolate (i.e., the altar of idol-worship); but in this verse (Dan_8:14), on the contrary, the continuance not only of the taking away of the תּמיד, but also of the delivering up of the saints and the people to be trodden under foot, is fixed to 2300 evening-mornings. This oppression continued longer than the removal of the appointed daily sacrifice. According to 1 Macc. 1:10ff., the violent assaults of Antiochus against the temple and the Jews who remained faithful to the law began in the 143rd year of the era of the Seleucidae, but the abomination that maketh desolate, i.e., the idol-altar, was first erected on Jehovah's altar of burnt-offering, according to 1 Macc. 1:54, in the 145th year of the Seleucidae, and the purification of the temple from this abomination, and its re-consecration, took place on the 25th day of Kisleu (9th month) of the year of the Seleucidae 148. According to this, from the beginning of the desecration of the temple by the plundering of its vessels and its golden ornaments (1 Macc. 1:20ff.) to its restoration to its right condition, more than five years passed. The fulfilment, or the historical reference, of this prophecy accordingly affords, as is sufficiently manifest, no proper means of ascertaining the import of the “evening-morning.” This must rather be exegetically decided. It occurs only here, and corresponds to νυχθήμερον, 2Co_11:25. But the choice of so unusual a measure of time, derived from the two chief parts of the day, instead of the simple measure of time by days, probably originates with reference to the morning and evening sacrifice, by which the day was to be consecrated to the Lord, after Gen_1:5, Gen_1:8,Gen_1:13, etc., where the days of the creation week are named and reckoned according to the succession of evening and morning. This separation of the expression into evening and morning, so that to number them separately and add them together would make 2300 evening-mornings = 1150 days, is shown to be inadmissible, both by the asyndeton evening-morning and the usages of the Hebrew language. That in Dan_8:26 והבּקר הערב (the evening and the morning) stands for it, does not prove that the evening ad morning are reckoned separately, but only that evening-morning is a period of time consisting of evening and morning. When the Hebrews wish to express separately day and night, the component parts of a day of a week, then the number of both is expressed. They say, e.g., forty days and forty nights (Gen_7:4, Gen_7:12; Exo_24:18; 1Ki_19:8), and three days and three nights (Jon_2:1; Mat_12:40), but not eighty or six days-and-nights, when they wish to speak of forty or three full days. A Hebrew reader could not possibly understand the period of time 2300 evening-mornings of 2300 half days or 1150 whole days, because evening and morning at the creation constituted not the half but the whole day. Still less, in the designation of time, “till 2300 evening-mornings,” could “evening-mornings” be understood of the evening and morning sacrifices, and the words be regarded as meaning, that till 1150 evening sacrifices and 1150 morning sacrifices are discontinued. We must therefore take the words as they are, i.e., understand them of 2300 whole days.
This exegetical resolution of the matter is not made doubtful by the remark, that an increasing of the period of oppression to 2300 days, over against the duration of the oppression limited in Dan_7:25 to only three and a half times, or to 1290 (or 1335 days, Dan_12:11-12), is very unlikely, since there is in no respect any reason for this increase over against these statements (Kran. p. 298). This remark can only be valid as proof if, on the one side, the three and a half times in Dan_7:25 are equal to three and a half civil years, for which the proof fails, and, on the other side, if the 1290 or the 1335 days in Dan_12:11. indicate the whole duration of the oppression of Israel by Antiochus. But if these periods, on the contrary, refer only to the time of the greatest oppression, the erection of the idol-altar in the temple, this time cannot be made the measure for the duration of the whole period of tribulation.
The objection also, that it is more difficult to prove historically an oppression of the people of God for 2300 days by Antiochus than the 1150 days' duration of this oppression, need not move us to depart from the exegetically ascertained meaning of the words. The opponents of this view are indeed at one in this, that the consecration of the temple after its purification, and after the altar of Jehovah was restored, on the 25th Kisleu of the 148th year of the Seleucidae, formed the termination of the period named, but they are at variance as to the commencement of the period. Delitzsch reckons from the erection of the idol-altar in the temple on 15th Kisleu in the 145th year of the Sel., and thus makes it only three years and ten days, or 1090 to 1105 days. Hitzig reckons from the taking away of the daily sacrifice, which would take place somewhat earlier than the setting up of the idol-altar, but has not furnished proof that this happened tow months earlier. Bleek and Kirmss reckon from the taking of Jerusalem by Apollonius in the year of the Sel. 145 (1 Macc. 1:30ff.; 2 Macc. 5:24ff.), misplacing this in the first month of the year named, but without having any other proof for it than the agreement of the reckoning.
To this is to be added, that the adoption of the consecration of the temple as the terminus ad quem is not so well grounded as is supposed. The words of the text, קדשׁ ונצדּק (“thus is the sanctuary placed in the right state”), comprehend more than the purification and re-consecration of the temple. In Dan_8:11, also Dan_9:17 and Dan_11:31, Daniel uses the word מקדּשׁ for temple, while on the other hand קדשׁ means all that is holy. Was, then, the sanctuary, in this comprehensive meaning of the word, placed in its right state with the consecration of the temple, when after this occurrence “they that were in the tower (Acra) shut up the Israelites round about the sanctuary,” sought to hinder access to the temple, and, when Judas Maccabaeus had begun to besiege the tower, the Syrians approached with a reinforced army, besieged the sanctuary for many days, and on their departure demolished its strongholds (1 Macc. 6:18ff., 51, 62)? - when, again, under Demetrius Soter of Bacchides, the high priest Menelaus was deposed, and Alcimus, who was not descended from the family of a high priest, was advanced to his place, who cruelly persecuted the pious in Israel? - when the Syrian general Nicanor mocked the priests who showed to him the burnt-offering for the king, and defiled and threatened to burn the temple (1 Macc. 7)? And did the trampling upon Israel cease with the consecration of the temple, when at the building up of the altar and the restoration of the temple the heathen around became so furious, that they resolved to destroy all who were of the race of Jacob amongst them, and began to murder them (1 Macc. 5:1ff.)? Hävernick therefore, with Bertholdt, places the terminus ad quem of the 2300 days in the victory over Nicanor, by which the power of the Syrians over Judea was first broken, and the land enjoyed rest, so that it was resolved to celebrate annually this victory as well as the consecration of the temple (1 Macc. 7:48-50), according to which the terminus a quo of the period named would be shortly before the erection of the abomination of idolatry in the temple.
If we now, however, turn from this supposition, since the text speaks further of it, to seek the end of the oppression in the restoration of the legal temple-worship, or in the overthrow of Antiochus Epiphanes, which the angel brings to view in the interpretation of the vision (Dan_8:26), so also in these cases the 2300 days are to be calculated. C. v. Leng., Maur., and Wiesel., who regard the death of Antiochus as the termination, place the beginning of the 2300 days one year before the beginning of violence with which Antiochus, after his return from the expedition into Egypt in the year 143 Sel., went forth to destroy (1 Macc. 1:20) the Mosaic worship and law. Only a few weeks or months earlier, in the middle of the year 142 Sel., the point of commencement must be placed, if the consecration of the temple is held to be the termination. In the year 142 not only was the pious high priest Onias removed from his office by the godless Jason, but also Jason himself was forced from the place he had usurped by Menelaus, who gave Antiochus a greater bribe than he did, and gave away as presents and sold to the heathen the golden utensils of the temple, and commanded Onias, who denounced his wickedness, to be deceitfully murdered (2 Macc. 2:4). Hence we need not, with Hofmann, regard the deposition of Onias, the date of which cannot be accurately fixed, but which, 2 Macc. 4:7ff., is brought into connection with the commencement of the reign of Antiochus, and which probably took place before the year 142, as the date of the commencement of the 2300 days, although the laying waste of the sanctuary may be dated from it; since Jason by royal authority set up a heathen γυμνάσιον with an ἐφηβεῖον, and by the wickedness of the profane and unpriestly conduct of this man Greek customs and the adoption of heathenish manners so prevailed, that the priests ceased to concern themselves about the service of the altar, but, despising the temple and forgetting the sacrifice, they hastened to witness the spectacles in the palaestra, which were contrary to the law; cf. 2 Macc. 4:13ff. with 1 Macc. 1:11-15. The 2300 days are thus, as well as the 1150 days, historically authenticated.
But it is on the whole questionable whether the number given by the angel is to be reckoned as an historico-chronological period of time, or is not rather to be interpreted as symbolical. The analogy of the other prophetic numbers speaks decidedly for the symbolical interpretation. The 2300 cannot, it is true, be directly a symbolical number, such as 7, 10, 40, 70, and other numbers are, but yet it can stand in such a relation to the number seven as to receive a symbolical meaning. The longer periods of time are usually reckoned not by days, but by weeks, months, or years; if, therefore, as to the question of the duration of the 2300 days, we reduce the days to weeks, months, and years, we shall find six years, three or four months, and some days, and discover that the oppression of the people by the little horn was to continue not fully a period of seven years. But the times of God's visitations, trials, and judgments are so often measured by the number seven, that this number came to bear stamped on it this signification; see under Dan_4:13; Dan_7:25. The number of seven years is used in the symbolical meaning when, not to mention the cases in Gen_29:18, Gen_29:27; Gen_41:26., and Jdg_6:1, seven years' famine were laid upon the land as a punishment for David's sin in numbering the people (2Sa_24:13), and when in Elisha's time Israel was visited with seven years' famine (2Ki_8:1). Thus the answer of the angel has this meaning: The time of the predicted oppression of Israel, and of the desolation of the sanctuary by Antiochus, the little horn, shall not reach the full duration of a period of divine judgment, shall not last so long as the severe oppression of Israel by the Midianites, Jdg_6:1, or as the famine which fell upon Israel in the time of Elisha, and shall not reach to a tenth part of the time of trial and of sorrow endured by the exiles, and under the weight of which Israel then mourned.
But if this is the meaning of the angel's message, why does not the divine messenger use a pure symbolical expression, such as “not full seven times?” and why does he not simply say, “not quite seven years?” As to the first of these questions, we answer that the expression “times” is too indefinite; for the duration of this period of sorrow must be given more minutely. As to the second question, we know no other answer that can be given than this, that, on the one side, only the positive determination of the length of time, measured by days, can afford full confidence that the domination and the tyranny of the oppressor shall not continue one day longer than God has before fixed; but, on the other side, by the measuring of this period by a number defined according to thousands and hundreds, both the long duration of the affliction is shown, and the symbolical character of the period named is indicated. While by the period “evening-morning” every ambiguity of the expression, and every uncertainty thence arising regarding the actual length of the time of affliction, is excluded, yet the number 2300 shows that the period must be defined in round numbers, measuring only nearly the actual time, in conformity with all genuine prophecy, which never passes over into the mantic prediction of historico-chronological data.
If we compare with this the designation of time in Dan_7:25, instead of the general idea there expressed, of “time, times, and half a time,” which is not to be computed as to its duration, we have here a very definite space of time mentioned. This difference corresponds to the contents of the two prophecies. The oppression prophesied of in this chapter would visit the people of Israel at not too distant a time; and its commencement as well as its termination, announced by God beforehand, was fitted to strengthen believers in the faith of the truth and fidelity of God for the time of the great tribulation of the end, the duration of which God the Lord indeed determined accurately and firmly beforehand, but according to a measure of time whose extent men cannot calculate in advance. In this respect the designation of the time of the affliction which the horn growing up out of the third world-kingdom will bring upon God's people, becomes a type for the duration of the oppression of the last enemy of the church of the Lord at the end of the days.

edited.

Chapter 18. -- THE 2300 DAY PROPHECY OF DANIEL 8

CONCERNING THE DURATION OF TIME FROM THE TAKING AWAY OF THE DAILY SACRIFICE UNTIL THE CLEANSING OF THE SANCTUARY AND THE RESTORATION OF THE SACRIFICE.

The important passages we are considering are Dan. 8:11,13,14:

"He magnified himself, even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down... Then I heard... How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation to give both the host and the sanctuary to be trodden under foot? And he said to me, Unto two thousand, three hundred, evenings and mornings, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

SETTING THE STAGE

The whole of the eighth chapter of Daniel is one of the most marvelous chapters of Bible prophecy. There is the most amazing coincidence between the prophecy and the historical record that forces critics to conclude that either Daniel lived after these events described or that he was inspired by God. There is no middle ground.

As we have shown in another portion of this book, there is indisputable evidence that the book of Daniel existed before the time of the events that this study is concerned with. The Septuagint translation of the Old Testament (completed at the request of Ptolemy Philadelphus in the year 285 B.C.) antedates the historical period described in the above passage by 120 years.

About the year 165 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes took away the Jewish daily sacrifice, and a little less than three and a half years later the worship and daily sacrifice were restored by the Maccabees. Daniel actually lived some 400 years before this event which he so accurately described. And the Septuagint translation empirically establishes the existence of the prophecy before the events occurred.

THE HISTORICAL MATERIAL COVERED IN DANIEL 8

In Daniel 8:20,21 the main characters in the vision are named as the Medo-Persian Empire and the Greek Empire. The former is pictured as a ram with two horns and the latter as a he-goat with a large horn between his eyes. In the vision, Greece meets Medo-Persia at the river where the latter is utterly destroyed after which the Greek kingdom waxes great. The first king, or kingdom, of the Greeks (under the symbol of the great horn in the midst of the he-goat's head) is broken in the height of his strength. Four other smaller horn take his place. This is later explained in verse 22, " Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power." Thus four inferior kingdoms would result and become the continuation of the Greek Empire.

The historical coincidence is so remarkable as to make the proposition worth repeating: either Daniel lived after the events, or he was inspired of God. No man could have guessed this sequence before it happened. Anyone knowing the history is struck immediately with the accuracy with which the vision describes the time, peoples, and events predicted.

The chapter continues the historical unfolding and describes a sinister king, a "little horn" coming up out of one of the four divisions of the Greek Empire. He turns against the people of God and their temple, desecrating the temple worship as described in the passage above. This king rising out of one of the four kingdoms left to the Greeks is said not only to attack the people of God but also to direct his attention against the Holy Land and what appears in the prophecy to be the High Priest pictured as the "prince of the Host," and perhaps against God Himself under the figure of the "Prince of Princes."

THE ACTUAL HISTORY IS IDENTICAL

The kingdom of Alexander the Great, so hastily put together, and so firmly established after the decisive routs of Darius III at Issus and Gaugamela (Arbela), followed by Alexander's subsequent capture of India, adding it as a province to an already subdued Asia, Europe, Egypt, Syria, Persia, and points in between, made him the master of the mightiest empire that had yet risen. He died shortly thereafter, and his four generals divided his kingdom: Antigonus took Macedonia; Cassander, Asia Minor; Seleucius, Syria and the East; and Ptolemy, Egypt. The latter two were the most powerful kingdoms and their position made Israel a pawn between them, it being periodically under the control of one or the other until the rise of the Romans.

The kingdom of the Greeks as THE world power lasted approximately three hundred years. More than half way through that period of time one of the successors of Seleucius (Antiochus Epiphanes) rose and took control of the Seleucid portion of the Near East. He was a godless man who sought to empty temples of their wealth and then distribute it in a Robinhood-like way. Another of his major aims was to spread Greek culture and wisdom. Thus Israel was just another nation upon which to impose Greek ways, and its temple just one more to empty of its wealth. However, in Israel he developed a particularly passionate hatred for the Jews and their worship. In the 142nd year of the kingdom of the Greeks (Seleucidae) Antiochus corrupted Menelaus, a usurper, who had murdered the previous high priest and had installed himself in that office. In time, Menelaus gave himself to converting Jews to Greek Culture, building a gymnasium and entering athletic events in the Greek fashion (naked). He and other Jews developed a false method of appearing uncircumcised, so far did he go in getting some to abandon their God, culture, and religion.

Two and a half years later Antiochus did indeed stop the daily sacrifice and set up an idol in the temple and an altar upon which swine were sacrificed. The temple fell into disuse, weeds and brush grew up in its courtyards. This was the root cause of the rebellion of the Maccabean family, who after three years of fighting, defeated the Greek forces, cleansed the temple, and reinstituted the daily sacrifice. Antiochus, upon hearing of this and other setbacks, took to his bed and in a fever died shortly thereafter.

Daniel's brief description of the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes in chapters eight and eleven has caused some commentators who doubt the truth of the Bible to conclude that Daniel had to live after Antiochus. The Interpreters Bible says, no one could write these visions without seeing the events themselves. So blind is unbelief!

THE 2,300 DAY PROBLEM

Though most interpreters see the fulfillment of these last events related to the sinister king in Antiochus Epiphanes and the accurately defined events of the prophecy, the 2,300 days has defied accurate interpretation. Most commentators notice a marvelously close coincidence of the approximate time involved, but the most eminent commentators state that there cannot be an accurate fixing of exactly 2,300 evenings and mornings (Hebrew "erev -- boker," i.e., "evening -- morning").

At this point there needs to be a consideration of whether the prophecy refers to 2,300 literal days or to 2,300 daily sacrifices, one in the evening and one in the morning, as was the practice since Moses. The latter gives us two sacrifices per day -- 2,300 sacrifices would accomplish 1150 days. A period of either just over six years or a period of three years and one and one half months would be indicated. Both positions have their defenders.

2,300 LITERAL DAYS?

From the time of the corruption of Menelaus until the death of Antiochus in the 149th year of the Greeks was about six years and three months or approximately 2,300 literal days. Many take the position that this fulfills the prophecy. These note that the prophecy includes the attack on the land and "the prince of the host," or high priest. Keil, Pulpit Commentary, Jamison, Faucett and Brown, Matthew Henry, and other commentators take this position.

There certainly is a close coincidence in the time, but there is no way to pinpoint the exact number of days because there is no exact date recorded either for the defection of Menelaus nor the death of Antiochus.

1,150 DAYS IS EQUAL TO 2,300 DAILY SACRIFICES

After a closer look at the text it is obvious that the period being asked about dates from the taking away of the daily sacrifice until it is restored. So in Daniel 8:13:

Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain {saint} which spoke, How long {shall be} the vision {concerning} the daily {sacrifice}, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The word days does not appear in Hebrew. It is erev - boker i.e. evening - morning and the words are singular. It should read 2,300 evening morning; etc. The American Standard Version reads:

Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said unto that certain one who spoke, How long shall be the vision {concerning} the continual {burnt-offering}, and the transgression that maketh desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings {and} mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The New International Version has a similar reading:

Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled - the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?" He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

It is more natural to begin the time period with the abandonment of the daily sacrifice according to the question and answer in this text. The number ought to be applied to the number of sacrifices, not the number of days. The "days" interpretation is based on faulty translation. Thus, from the taking away of the daily sacrifice until the restoration of the sacrifice is to be 2,300 evenings and mornings. Since the sacrifice was offered, one in the evening and one in the morning, it is more natural to view the prophecy as comprising 1150 days which would contain 2,300 sacrifices.

THE DATES ARE CERTAIN FOR THE CESSATION AND RESTORATION OF THE DAILY SACRIFICE

Few dates are better established in antiquity than the dates of the interruption of the sacrifice and its restoration.

I Maccabees 1:54 says:

"On the 15th day of the 9th month of the 145th year [of the kingdom of the Greeks] king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God."

The termination is established in the same book I Mac. 4:52,53

"And they arose before the morning of the 25th day of the 9th month of the 148th year, and they offered sacrifices according to the law upon the new altar..."

The interval should number 1150 days or 2,300 daily sacrifices. The problem is that there are three years and ten days between the two events according to the account in I Maccabees. Three years and ten days is 3 x 365 + 10 which is 1,105. That is forty five days short of the required number -- not close enough!

AN OBVIOUS BUT OVERLOOKED CONSIDERATION This prophecy has been unsuccessfully calculated due to the commentators dependence on a calendar of 365 days. The Julian Calendar using a 365-day year was not in official use until 45 B.C. The calendar in use when the prophecy was fulfilled was different from that in use today. This prophecy was fulfilled about 165 years before Christ. The dates given in Maccabees, which measures the time of the cessation of the daily sacrifice, are based on a Greek calendar which did not compute the year with 365 days. This clear statement of fact is often overlooked and is the reason for the lack of success in interpreting this prophecy

. THE CALENDAR OF THE ANCIENTS

Previous to 45 B.C. the year was most often computed using a lunar calendar based on the phases of the moon -- hence, month. There were a variety of ways to compute the year and make the season come out right. The lunar calendar of the earliest Greeks had 354 days. According to Encyclopedia Brittanica they had a year of six months containing 29 days and six months of 30 days. Every other year an intercalary month of 30 days was added between the first and second months. The intercalary month was omitted in the eighth year of the cycle to make the seasons come back to the right dates.

The Hebrew calendar had a 360-day year and also the intercalary month was used, though the length of it was not uniform. The addition of it was decided by the high priest.

COMPUTING THE 2,300 EVENINGS AND MORNINGS FROM ANCIENT CALENDARS

Using the most ancient Greek lunar calendar of 354 days and considering that it is quite possible for the first and last year in any three year cycle to have intercalary months, we then would come up with the following computation: 3 years and 10 days would be 3 X 354 + 2 X 30 for each intercalary month plus 10 days. That is equal to 1132 days. It is 18 days short of the required amount that would complete 2,300 daily sacrifices or 1150 days. We are getting closer, but not close enough yet.

HERODOTUS

Herodotus is called the father of history, among other things. He wrote about the year 445 B.C. In a passage where he discusses Solon who is speaking to Croesus, a Greek king in Asia Minor, about the relativity of happiness in life, Solon cites the usual length of a man's life. He says:

"Take seventy years as the span of a man's life. Those seventy years contain 25,200 days without counting intercalary months. Add a month every other year to make the seasons come round with proper regularity, and you will have 35 additional months which will make 1050 days. Thus the total days of your seventy years is 26,250 and not a single one of them is like the next in what it brings."

From this passage we see that the length of the Greek year is 25,250 divided by 70 or 360 days. This would have been the year to Solon, Croesus, Herodotus, and most likely to Antiochus Epiphenes and the Maccabees. With further observation we can see that 1,050 days divided by 35 gives 30 days as the length of the intercalary month.

COMPUTING WITH THE GREEK CALENDAR IN USE AT THE TIME OF THE MACCABEES

Using the Greek calendar according to Herodotus and assuming that the years 146 and 148 were intercalary years, we come up with the following calculation: 9-15-145 to 9-25-148, the dates given in Maccabees from the desecration to the cleansing, is three years and ten days. Thus, the math sentence following the Greek calendar which was in use at the time the prophecy was fulfilled would be: (3 X 360) + (2 X 30) + 10. Let's diagram it.

3 x 360 equals ********************1080 days
2 x 30 (2 intercalary months)******* ****60 days
From 15th to 25th equals **************10 days
___________________________________________
Total ****************************1150 days

This is exactly the period which would accomplish exactly 2,300 sacrifices, one in the morning and one in the evening!

Using the Greek calendar is obviously the correct way to compute the number of days between the dates in Maccabees. Using that method arrives at the correct computation. Do not lose sight of the fact that Daniel wrote this prophecy years before it was fulfilled. The angel who spoke knew the future. The divine nature of the book of Daniel is validated by this prophecy. God's messenger told Daniel there would be a period when a king, who would rise up out of one of four divisions of the coming Greek Empire, who would attack the Holy Land and stop the daily sacrifice for 2,300 times. The future came round, centuries later, and validated the prophecy. Certainly the Bible is a living miracle!

[url=http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/2300.htm]Original Link[/url]

The Book of Daniel, Chapter 8

In the third year of King Belshazzar's reign, I, Daniel had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me. In my vision I saw myself in the Citadel of Susa in the province of Elam; in the vision I was beside the Ulai Canal. I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. [Daniel 8:1 - 8:3]

Believed to have occurred in 551 BC, Daniel's second vision reinforced the details of his first dream which was recorded in Daniel, Chapter 7. The second vision describes the second and third of four kingdoms prophesied to exercise political authority over the two tribes of Judah and the ten dispersed tribes of Israel. Comprised of two separate peoples, the second kingdom was represented by a ram with two long horns. One of the horns of the ram grew longer than the other representing the initial supremacy of one nation over the other nation, then, the other horn grew up, indicating the supremacy of the latter nation over the former. Upon the fall of the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire was under Mede leadership, with the Persians later demonstrating supremacy over the Medes. The three nations conquered by the Medo-Persian Empire included Lydia (546 BC), Babylon (539 BC), and Egypt (535 BC).

I watched the ram as he charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against him, and none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great. [Daniel 8:4]

The ram kingdom spread out, subduing the nations to the west (Babylon), north (Lydia), and south (Egypt). Described as animals, the other nations around the ram kingdom, were unable to defend themselves. The ram kingdom gained political authority over the Holy Lands and God's chosen people the Jews, who were under Babylonian rule at the time of the ram's conquest. As with the Babylonian captivity, God did not intervene in the political subjection of the Holy Lands by the Medo-Persian Empire.

As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. He came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing by the canal and charged at him in great rage. I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power. [Daniel 8:5 - 8:7]

Headed by a prominent leader, the third kingdom represented by a goat, emerged from the west and swept rapidly across the area controlled by the Medo-Persians, through furious military conquests. The third kingdom or Grecian Empire, headed by Alexander the Great, defeated Darius the Persian at Arbela beyond the Tigris River in 331 BC, seized the political authority of the Medo-Persian Empire, and subjected the nations of the ram to Grecian political authority, including the Holy Lands. As with the Babylonian and Medo-Persian captivities, God did not intervene with the subjection of the Jews by the Grecians.

The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven. [Daniel 8:8]

Alexander the Great ruled from 336 BC to 323 BC, then he died suddenly at the peak of his power. History records that Alexander's natural heir did not assume political control of the Grecian Empire, but four divisions of the Grecian kingdom arose and ruled the world, from north to south, and from east to west, around Israel.

Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. [Daniel 8:9 - 8:10]

From one of the four Grecian kingdom divisions (Seleucids) came another horn or leader, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who started small, grew in power, conquered Palestine and ultimately committed great atrocities against his subjects the Jews. With initial control over Syria, Antiochus IV expanded toward the south (Egypt) and the east (Asia Minor). While in control of Jerusalem, Antiochus IV was exceedingly more wicked than previous Grecian rulers, he ousted the Jewish High-Priest through political coercion, and sold the High-Priest position to the highest bidders. Through his manifest evil, Antiochus IV orchestrated the death of the former Jewish High-Priest and scores of priests and scribes of the Holy Law. However, as with the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian captivities, God did not intervene in the political subjection of the Holy Lands by Antiochus IV.

It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the hosts; it took away the daily sacrifice from him and the place of the sanctuary was brought low. Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground. [Daniel 8:11 - 8:12]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes visualized himself to be a god. He took control of the Jerusalem temple, ended the daily sacrifices, sacrificed unclean animals on the temple altar, sacrificed unclean animals upon altars throughout Judea, performed or allowed acts of sexual perversion within the holy precincts of the Jerusalem temple, and placed a foreign god or idol in the temple. Prospering from the plunder of the temple treasury, Antiochus IV collected the sacred Hebrew scrolls, threw them to the ground, and burned them to carry out his order to eliminate the Holy Laws from the land.

Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled - the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot? He said unto me, It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated. [Daniel 8:13 - 8:14]

Two angels discussed the length of time from the new horn's desecration of the Jerusalem temple until reconsecration. In total, there would be 2,300 evenings and mornings.

Special Note: The Septuaguint or Greek translation sets reconsecration at 2,300 mornings and evenings while the Latin or Vulgate translation sets reconsecration at 2,200. Per verse 54 of the First Book of Maccabees, Chapter 1, Antiochus IV erected a dreadful desecration upon the Jerusalem temple altar on day 15 of the month of Chislev in 168 BC, and, per verse 18 of the Second Book of Maccabees, Chapter 1, the Jews celebrated reconsecration on day 25 of the month of Chislev in 165 BC. As historically recorded in the Maccabean account, there were approximately 1,100 days, or 2,200 mornings and evenings, between desecration and reconsecration. The author of this Website anticipates readers will rely upon the 2,200 number from the Vulgate translation.

While I, Daniel, was watching and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. And I heard a man's voice from the Ulai calling, Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision. As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. Son of man, he said to me, understand that the vision concerns the time of the end. While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet. [Daniel 8:15 - 8:18]

The angel Gabriel stood before Daniel and a man's voice from the Ulai directed Gabriel to explain the meaning of the vision. As Gabriel approached, Daniel prostrated himself, in terror, and fell into a deep slumber such that he had to be awakened and raised to his feet by Gabriel. Daniel was told that his vision concerned end of times eschatology.

He said, I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. [Daniel 8:19]

Because of the significance of the vision, Gabriel ensured that Daniel was fully awake and cognizant of the discussion. Daniel was told the vision dealt with occurrences in the time of wrath, and encompassed time from the original temple descecration by Antiochus IV up to the appointed time of the end of days and consecration of the final temple by Christ.

The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. [Daniel 8:20 - 8:21]

The ram was identified to be the Medo-Persian Empire which overtook the Babylonian Empire. The goat was identified to be the Grecian Empire and the large horn of the goat was identified to be Alexander the Great who overtook the Medo-Persian Empire.

The four horns that replace the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. [Daniel 8:22]

Splintered into four separate kingdoms after the death of Alexander, the Grecian Empire was never again united under a common leader. Each of the four separate kingdom divisions of the Grecian Empire were headed by former Alexandrian generals, who became kings sixteen years after all of Alexander's natural heirs were eliminated. The four rulers included Cassander who reigned over Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus who reigned over Thrace and Asia Minor, Seleucus I Nicator (311-280 BC) who reigned over Syria (Seleucid dynasty), and Ptolemy I Soter (323-285 BC) who reigned over Libya, Ethiopia, Egypt and Palestine (Ptolemic dynasty).

In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. He will become very strong but not by his own power. He will cause astounding destruction and succeed in whatever he does. [Daniel 8:23 - 8:24]

During the latter part of the Seleucid dynasty, Antiochus III was succeeded by his son Seleucus IV Philopator (187-175 BC). In order to collect tributes, Seleucus IV sent his tax collector, Heliodorus, to rob the Jerusalem temple, however, Heliodorus engineered a conspiracy against Seleucus IV, killed him, and assumed interim Syrian leadership

Shortly before the death of Seleucus IV, his son Demetrius was sent to Rome, in a hostage trade for Antiochus IV, brother of Seleucus IV, who was previously captured by the Romans in a war with Antiochus III. Upon release from Rome, Antiochus IV traveled to Athens and secretly negotiated with the Romans, for the Seleucid throne. He convinced the Romans to keep Demetrius, the rightful heir to the throne in Rome, as a permanent hostage, in return for monetary tributes. As a part of the deal, the king of Pergamus, who was given a portion of the kingdom of Antiochus III by the Romans for assisting them in war against the Seleucid dynasty, expelled Heliodorus by force and placed Antiochus IV on the throne.

With the stoic face of a master poker player, and with his trickery, lies, and charlatanism, Antiochus IV Epiphanes finagled his way into control as ruler of the powerful kingdom of Syria and reigned from 175 BC to 164 BC. Taken for a mad man, Antiochus IV stole from the palace treasury and Jewish temples, rambled around in Roman officer disguise, and drank and caroused with people of the lowest rank.

In 170 BC, with relative ease, Antiochus IV attacked and overtook the Egyptian army, and then, he defeated the Egyptian navy. At one point, capable of destroying the commanders of the Egyptian army and masses of the population, Antiochus IV spared them and befriended several Egyptian cities in a blatant gesture of sycophancy, with the hope of persuading the young Egyptian king Ptolemy VI Philometer, who became his captured ward, to politically assist in the battle against the young king's brother who headed the remainder of the uncaptured Egyptian forces stationed in the city of Alexandria.

He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed but not by human hands. [Daniel 8:24 - 8:25]

Having risen to power after Seleucus IV, who was known for his consideration toward the Jews offering them many freedoms, Antiochus IV was absolutely ruthless in his treatment of the Jews, committing unfathomable abuse of the Jews. He deposed Onias the High-Priest and sold the priesthood to Jason, the younger brother of Onias for 440 talents of silver. Onias was subsequently killed by Andronicus, deputy to Antiochus IV in Antioch. In two incredible acts of viciousness, Antiochus IV became known throughout all future Jewish history for blatantly killing an old priest, Eleazar, on the torture wheel because he would not eat pork, and, for methodically dismembering to death, seven sons in the presence of their mother, and then the mother, for not eating pork sacrificed to Zeus Jupiter. Once while Antiochus IV was away at battle in Egypt, a false rumor spread that he was dead, sending Judea into revolt. Angered at his disloyal Jewish subjects, Antiochus IV returned to Jerusalem with his vast army and he indiscriminately killed 80,000 Jews from young to old, and sold another 40,000 Jews into slavery. He was a very evil human being.

As recorded in the Second Book of Maccabees, Chapter 9, God struck Antiochus IV down with an incurable pain in his bowels. Arrogantly acting as though unfazed by his illness, Antiochus IV was riding in a chariot when he fell out and his body was racked throughout. Living for a brief period, his body became so infected that flesh fell off his bones and produced an intolerable stench. Humbled by God, Antiochus IV died without dignity.

The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given to you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future. [Daniel 8:26]

Gabriel stated that the number of evenings and mornings had a dual meaning. The vision was an accounting of the 1,100 days which occurred between the 168 BC desecration of the Jerusalem temple altar, and the 165 BC reconsecration of the altar by the Maccabees. In addition, the sum of 1,100 evenings and 1,100 mornings, represented an accounting of 2,200 Judaic years prophesied to occur from the 168 BC desecration of the Jerusalem temple altar, until the reconsecration of the temple for the final time, by Christ, at the end of days. Shocked by the future foretold for the Jewish nation, Daniel was told to seal up the vision, for it concerned the distant future at the end of days.

I, Daniel, was exhausted and lay ill for several days. Then I got up and went about the king's business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding. [Daniel 8:27]

Daniel was physically and emotionally drained by what he saw, resulting in personal illness for several days. Returning to work, Daniel was appalled by the future of Israel under coming kingdoms and did not comprehend the meaning of his dream (Daniel 7) or vision (Daniel 8) as they were beyond his understanding.

[url=http://www.csg.net/eschatology/Daniel-8.htm]Original Link[/url]

Maccabees is such a treasuretrove of information.

It's a pity they removed it from the Bible. Whoever "they" are...

Poor Eli.

Ask a simple question and look what happens at this time of night. Ha!

I have to cut out of here, but if this above isn't enough, try this ...

http://www.google.com/search?q=+Daniel+8%3A14&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

I'll try it after some sleep. :-)

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a [b]time, times, and an half[/b]; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (DAN 12:7)

"But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up [b]three years and six months[/b], when great famine was throughout all the land;" (LUK 4:25)

"Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of [b]three years and six months[/b]." (JAM 5:17)

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a [b]thousand two hundred and threescore days[/b], clothed in sackcloth." (REV 11:3)

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a [b]thousand two hundred and threescore days[/b]." (REV 12:6)

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a [b]time, and times, and half a time[/b], from the face of the serpent." (REV 12:14)

Some interesting parallels between Daniel's Vision and St. John the Divine's Revelation:

First, Daniel is not alone during His encounter with the angel. I reckon John is one of the saints on the other side of the river...

"Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" (DAN 8:13)

"Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river." (DAN 12:8)

...because both witness an angel with a book...

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found [b]written in the book[/b]." (DAN 12:1)

"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand [b]a little book open[/b]: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices." (REV 1:1-3)

...both are told not to reveal certain mysteries...

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (DAN 12:4)

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not." (REV 10:4)

...and both witness the angel raise his right hand to swear to God...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (DAN 12:7)

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer." (REV 10:5-6)

In Star Trek they call this a "Space/Time Anomaly". I don't know the theological term for it.

Hope this helps.

Corey_H wrote:
"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a [b]time, times, and an half[/b]; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (DAN 12:7)

"But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up [b]three years and six months[/b], when great famine was throughout all the land;" (LUK 4:25)

"Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of [b]three years and six months[/b]." (JAM 5:17)

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a [b]thousand two hundred and threescore days[/b], clothed in sackcloth." (REV 11:3)

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a [b]thousand two hundred and threescore days[/b]." (REV 12:6)

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a [b]time, and times, and half a time[/b], from the face of the serpent." (REV 12:14)

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN literally means, [i][b]"number, number, weigh, divide"[/b][/i] or the sums of money, [b][i]"a minah, a minah, a shekel and a half"[/b][/i]. Which if you discount the difference in value between a minah and a shekel is again [u]three and a half[/u].

It's also thought that the period of Jesus' earthly ministry was three and a half years.

Daniel 9:27[i][color=000066] 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”[/color][/i]Again the "middle of the week" is [u]three and a half days[/u]

As well as being in some cases literal the three and a half is symbolic. It seems symbolic of the time when the Lord witholds His judgement. At the end of the "three and a half" the judgement is declared, sentence is passed, evil receives its just due.

Even in Jesus' ministry this can be said:

John 12:31
[i][color=000066]Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.[/color][/i]

John 16:7-11
[i][color=003366]7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 [u]of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged[/u].[/color][/i]

That's my take on it anyway.

There's also the matter of multiple fulfillments of prophecy, that someone (Annie?) has already touched on.

That's one reason I wouldn't be dogmatic on where exactly we are in all this. Obviously we are far nearer the end of this world as we know it, far nearer to the second coming of the Lord and the "new heavens and new earth". Personally I have a feeling I may see it while still in ths body.

Another reason for not being dogmatic is that i'm hopeless at maths, and tend to find all these so many thousand days confusing!

I once tried to check on the 1,260 days, which should come to another three and a half years, and couldn't get it anywhere near.

Turned out I was dividing by the number of yards in a mile instead of days in a year!!!

How many yards in a year? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jeannette