Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

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Here is a problem that perhaps we could look at as it might save some debate later.

Justification is a completely monergistic event, in other words it is completely God worked as God changes the bent of the will and gives faith so He does not force any into faith.

However sanctification is in a sense synergistic, or God works in both to will and do, but man must work out what God works.

The one who trusts Christ for justification, will never fall under the condemnation of the Law again.

This is why grace is such a dangerous thing, because those who are truly regenerated will not seek to use grace as a means to sin, or live ungodly lives. Instead while sin remains within, and there may be defeats in the daily battles, the ultimate war has been won.

Man can never be good enough to be saved, the Law clearly shows us this, and Paul uses the law to show this in the opening chapters of Romans. All mankind knows it is wrong to steal, kill etc.
But then in Romans 10 Paul mentions that something needs to be heard, and that faith would come by hearing it. Of course this is the word of God, or the Gospel. The Gospel alone frees all who are under the weight of knowing they are sinners. Notice Paul does not say that faith cometh by the works of the Law, but by hearing the news that Christ has died for sinners in their place, and that He was raised for justification.

The last thing anyone needs is to be pointed back to self, which sadly much of what we hear nowadays does. The problem is self, but the Law is holy, good, and Spiritual. I however in my natural state am none of those, and even once I am Spiritual, my righteousness is solely based on Christ's merit alone, and not on my obedience, or my prayer time, or my Bible reading, or any other work I do that I use as a means to gain God's love. To do this, is to present an idol before God in place of Christ, and tell God that Christ is not enough for Him to love you, so you must add some work. You may if you wish, but I have a hard enough time remembering my standing in Christ, and battling to keep my flesh under. In other words, I know thw monster that dwells within, and will dwell there until glory swallows it up.

dear (father) abraham :-),

i have just a questions for you brother..

* where does the bible show that man is totally unable to receive Chrhist??

i agree that man is totally depraved, but when did that become that man is unable to choose Christ?? you and me were totally depraved, but the Holy Spirit showed us our great sin and His great Son and we believed, right?? if that is true of all believers alike, then why is it so impossible for man to chose Christ if the Holy Spirit came into the world to convict man of their sinfulness??

i understand that the Father draws men through His Spirit, but that does not change the fact that we had the law written on our heart and our conscience bearing witness. the True Light came into the world and shone in the darkness.

to say that all man is unable to choose Christ is to make the bible confusing and Christ a liar.

matt 11:28 "come unto me, and i will give you rest"

matt 23:37 "o jerusalem, jerusalem...how often i wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING"

you may say "well this sort of choosing Christ limits the Holy One"?? but God has allowed Himself to be limited.

psalm 78:41 "yes, again and again they tempted God, and LIMITED the Holy One of Israel".

abraham, i believe that salvation is totally of God. He sent Jesus to us, has the Holy Spirit convict the world of sin, and gives man the choice to become sons or not. He forgives our sins, justifies us, adopts us, sactifies us, perseveres us, and will ultimately glorify us. but that does not mean that we are unable to choose Him..

that's about it, but thanks for bringing it up..love you man.

by Abe_Juliot on 2007/7/16 2:17:25

It's really simple...

Read this passage.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

First, please carefully notice that you have 144,000 souls that are currently not yet saved. Yet, without a doubt they will be saved. Because God has spoken it. It will come to pass and by no means fail. Not only that! It get's better... God has chosen the exact same "even number" out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel.(12,000 souls per tribe, no more and no less)

Now, these will be saved in the worst of times the world will ever experience. They will be persecuted in shocking ways. There's going to be much horrific suffering for those who remain a christian in those days!

Yet... How is it that not 1 soul is lost of the 144,000 and not 1 soul is lost of each of the 12,000 souls in each of the tribes?

Can you answer that?

You who say that God elects those who elect him...
You who say that we chose God to choose us...
You who say that God elected us because of our decision and choice...
You who say that man has the capabilty and will to cause God to elect him...

Was it their own free will and decision that kept these 144,000 souls saved, or was it God's own free will and decision.

Some might say, "It was both." You may say, "well... they all cooperated with God and agreed to remain saved."

So your basically saying... They all just happened to cooperate with the sovereign LORD and that's why He sovereignly sealed them? (144,000... no more and no less?) That is a gracious and beautiful set of numbers in this passage. Don't you think?

You then have to limit the free will and the soveriegnty of God down to man's free will. (In other words, God can only elect those who elect Him) Which is opposed to... A man will only elect and choose God, if God has chosen and elected that man.

You also have to conclude that God can only do ...what man will let God do (regarding salvation). (In other words, the filthy-rag free will of man is more powerful than the perfect holy grace of God.)

Can't you see? This exalts man above God.

Mormons, Catholics, and cults alike... love this doctrine that exalts the free will of man above the soveriegnty of God (in salvation). Come out from among them and be not a partaker of their deeds.

It must also be noted in the midst of this thread, How does one know if he is elect or has the seal of God? Well, you could read 1 John... This book will either condemn you or comfort you. Condemnation for this who will not repent and believe the gospel. ...and Comfort for those who hate their sin and continue in the purifying hope of the gospel.

You could also meditate on this simple passage.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Godly sorrow is a mark of true repentance to salvation from God's mercy and election.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

These numbers in Revelation chapter 7 are clear and exact. No man and no devil can blot them out. They are the elect of God and they will endure unto the end.

Now, some may say, "It doesn't apply to us... Revelation chapter 7 only applies to Isreal in the Tribulation."

You basically would be saying... They are elect and remain elect (becuase of God's free will). But, we are elect and remain elect (because of our free will).

Can't you see? These are 2 different ways of salvation? One is of man and the other is of God. One gives glory to man and the other gives all the glory to God. One is man-centered and the other is God-centered.

I'm presenting this thread to all those who hold to the doctrines of...

Election is Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faith.

Conditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvation.

Please respond, I would like to hear how you handle Revelation 7 with your theology.

Very well put, brother!

It actually reminds me of a time when as a young believer I asked my pastor if there is such a thing as "luck" from a biblical POV.
He replied:

"To attribute an act of 'luck' to God's sovereign will is worship; but to attribute a sovereign work of God to 'Luck' is blasphemy."

dear saints

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.

dear saints let us not be so presumptuous as to think we can save ourselves. We do not even know we need salvation except God quickens us to it. Christ said to us He is the Way, Truth and Life and no body may come to the Father except through Him. He also said this in John 6:

[b] 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. [/b]

clearly God does know who will not believe...the reason however is not what we think. Those who don't believe don't because of this verse which follows...

[i][b]65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [/b][/i]

Even the Grace to make a decision for Jesus must be extended from the Throne of GOd. Such is the nature of our depravity, it is such that apart from God we are finished. If there was a good thing in us, such that we could decide to come to Christ by ourselves, why is it that we must die completely to ourselves if we want to Live for Christ? Surely God would want to spare that little piece of us by which we came to Jesus? Yet Paul said that in our flesh dewlls no Good thing...he said also that apart from Christ we can do nothing. If we hold this to be true, apart from Christ we can't be saved either.

Paul said in his letters that he is an apostle by the Will (not of men) but of God. Even his coming to salvation required a dramatic Intervention by God without which it would not have happened. Paul says this also:

Phillipians 2

[b]12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. [/b]

We are to obey God and work out our Salvation with fear and trembling and vs 13 explains how it works, it is [i][b]God[/b][/i] who works in us so that we can will (desire) and do His Good Pleasure.

Romans 9 outlines Election as God's Divine Prerogative. He chose Jacob over Esau not because He knew Esau would sell his birthright, but before either could do anything. Really Esau sold his birthright because God rejected him from jump. This is the same with us, our Election was decided from before the setting of the foundations of the earth, in fact in the Revelation, Christ is described as the Lamb Slain from the foundations of the world and this dear saints, hear the Spirit of God as He speaks through me now, is the point of our Salvation. Before Creation, when God Conceived the idea, He determined the Plan of Redemption and Enacted it. Christ was slain then. When we come to Christ in our life, it is the realization of what always was from before the setting of the foundations of the earth. This is why Paul was convinced that nothing could separate us from the Love of God in Christ. This dear saints is the security we have in our Salvation. Salvation was always for the Purposes of God showing Mercy to a creation which would otherwise perish without HIm.

If God didn't Move so drastically in our lives, we would have no hope of Salvation. our free will as we perceive it is not independant of God's Will, it is wraped up in it. Even in our Salvation it is God who Wills so that we can do so our will clearly isn't acceptable before God, even this too must die. That part of self is probably the hardest thing to kill. Saints and brethren, i feel we are disturbed by the idea that God is Sovereign, All-Sovereign such that without God we have no hope. This bothers us because it exposes our helplessness. It shows us we are inadeqate and that there is only 1 thing which we can do, and that is to die. Who wants to die folks? Honestly. Who wants to let go of this reality wherein we appear to have control for something Other, something which has no preview but that we have to be in or out? Not me. However God's Plan for my Life sperceded all that and i bless HIm for it.

i bless God for Romans 9. His Forknowledge isn't just Knowing ahead of time, that is a crutch,a cop out for us to hold onto our perceived independance. No dear saints the Forknowledge of God is His Foreordination of things. Dear saints after God hit me with that, i began to see that message everywhere in the letters of our beloved bro Paul. We who were called...we who were chosen from before the setting of the foundations of the world...who of us were there to do anything that we might earn Salvation or somehow contribute to it? Even where Paul talks about Election, it is always according to God. We do not attain (which is to get by doing something) but we Obtain (to be given). Romans 9:11 speaks of the election of GOd may stand not according to works but according to Him that Calleth. the Election is of GOd...

God doesn't force anyone to the Faith does HE? Tell that to Paul who was struck blind for 3 days...if that hadn't happened, Paul could not have been saved.

perhaps some of you have been imbued with something which allows you to choose Christ without Him choosing you first. i humbly confess i have no such ability and if He hadn't extended Grace to me, i would have been God-Damned. Except for God's Exercise of His Divine Prerogative, i would have been dead from before the setting of the foundations of the world.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name.

p.s. Sis Annie (you shall be called Iron Lass) we seem to disagree on this but according to ROmans 9, we are vessels of Mercy...Praise God for that!

where does the bible show that man is totally unable to receive Christ??

The question is misleading. The Bible says in John 6:44-45 (NASB)
[color=0000FF]44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.[/color]

In these verses we learn that no one can come to Jesus for salvation unless first God the Father draws the person to Jesus. So to answer your question,

where does the bible show that man is totally unable to receive Christ??

But this brings us to the next question: "Is everyone drawn to Christ or are only certain people drawn to Christ?" Let's look at the verses again to see what they say:
[color=0000FF]44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.[/color]

Notice:
1. All who are drawn are raised up on the last day. (I will raise him (him raised = him drawn))
2. All who hear and learn from the Father comes to Jesus.

To summarize: Man cannot respond to God unless God first does a work of grace in a man's heart. God does not perform this work of grace upon every man's heart. I know to some of you this doesn't seem 'fair', but it is biblical. Does this mean that man is not responsible for his actions? No, he is still responsible and he must repent.

Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

Why were they unwilling? This is the question that needs to be addressed especially considering Peter's words in Acts 3:13-18 (NASB)
13"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.
14"But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.
16"And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
17"And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.
18"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled."

Notice that last verse, Peter says that Jesus must have been rejected in order for Christ to suffer. Christ Himself said in Luke 24:25-26:
25And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26"Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?"

When Jesus made His lament over Jerusalem, He knew that they would reject Him. He knew they acted ignorance, but they acted in order to fulfill God's perfect plan of redemption. It is unwise to use this lament as an argument against sovereign election when in fact it displays sovereign election.

Reply to Abraham
I believe scripture is clear that the election of grace is a sovereign act of God
Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, the Hebrews and the apostles were all chosen by God.
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There is an election of individuals to eternal life
(2 Thess. 2:13;
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph. 1:4; 4.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 Pet. 1:2;
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
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The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God
(Eph. 1:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
John 15:
16. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
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God claims the right so to do
(Rom. 9:
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
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It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of sovereign grace
(Rom. 11:
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Eph. 1:3-6).
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
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All that pertain to salvation, the means
(Eph. 2:
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2 Thess.
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
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as well as the end, are of God
Tim. 2:
24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
1 Cor. 1
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Eph. 2:
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature." Men are elected "to salvation," "to the adoption of sons," "to be holy and without blame before him in love"
(2 Thess. 2:
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Gal. 4:
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph. 1:
4. Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
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The ultimate end of election is the praise of God's grace
(Eph. 1:
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eddie

sis Jeannette

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN

As mentioned elsewhere, I eventually decided both predestination and freewill are true.

that's the same thing God showed me! the 2 seem mutually exclusive but they are employed of God for the Supreme Purpose, the Glory of His Name by the Revelation of His Manifold WIsdom to the powers of the air through the Church.

On this side, our brains can't get around that completely but on the other side it will be 100% clear. so this is what i say, thank God i am a vessel of mercy!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Who gives, Who receives, and who believes? Who keeps who?

John 17:1-21 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Do you think the prayer of Jesus is answered by His and our Father? Ya think?

In Christ: Phillip

Yes, that will be the fruit of our Father, our Brother Jesus our Lord and the Holy Spirit by which we live and move and have our being.

When you see a tree, it has fruit on it, we then can make an educated guess of know truly that it is a peach tree. The Same with what Jesus prayed for, then we are the fruit of the vine and the world will know us by our Love Fruit.

In Christ: Phillip