Modern evangelism proudly proclaims, 'God loves all, He hates the sin not the sinner'. How then do you explain Ps. 5:5 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; YOU HATE ALL EVILDOERS"
In Christ - Jim
my friend do you understand that man is depraved and dead in their sins (eph 2) and he is unable to come to Christ apart from God raising him from the dead. Why do you think God saves men? do you think God owes any man salvation? If God let justice stand we'd all be in hell and God would still be Love.
This is making me more and more sad.
The Link that Jim gave and this one now is causing me to see the "hate" that comes from this doctrine.
I may be in a Reformed Church, but I shall never ever recant that God so LOVED the WORLD and that He "is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" ... which is an act of their will.
No wonder why there was so much Bloodshed when this doctrine became so powerful. No wonder why Calvin and his followers began a murderous spree.
I'm sorry, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, but when "God IS Love" is removed from the Gospels, I cannot disagree too strongly.
God IS Love ~ the same, yesterday, today and Forever.
he is, but Gods "hate" should not be confused with our for the most of the time sinful hate. When God hates something its not when i hate something. Gods hate is Holy and Good. I belive God hates the sinner, but at the same time he loves him so much he sent his only begotten son to be slaughtered on a tree.
Do i get how it all fits together? no not right now :-)
God loves us even more then we can imagine or ever understand, i dont see how HIS hatred should be any different, just as much as we can understand the depth of His love, we cant understand His hate towards Sin and sinners.
the reason i dont like the frase "God loves the sinner but not his sin" is becuse it is the sinner who goes forever to hell. Not the "sin"
but the good news is today is the day of salvation so if any man come, he will not experience this eternal wrath of gods holy anger.
Bwcuse Jesus took it on ! now thats Love!
Glory....
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=8309]The wrath of God
Hi dear brother Christian,
The only way this "hate" can be explained is that GOD DOES Love the whole world, [u]but they are not able to "Benefit" from His Love
It is the same as when Jesus commands that we "hate" our wives, mothers, fathers, brothers, etc..
Of course He didn't mean "hate" them, He would never contradict His Own Words everywhere else in Scripture.
But HE means "by comparison".
Where it says, "the disciple who Jesus loved", does that mean that Jesus loved John more than the rest ?
No, it means that John drew in the closest to Jesus and leaned on His breast at the last supper and why Jesus said, "Behold thy mother", giving Mary over to John's care, because John through experiential knowledge/revelation of Christ's Love "Knew" (as you "know" what that means) Jesus' Love best at that time and why he was given The Revelation.
It was John who said, "GOD 'is' Love."
A story goes that, towards the end of John's life when very old, he'd always say, "Love one another".
That is not hard to believe when you do a Search on how many times John wrote "Love" into his Gospel and Epistles and why God would give 'him' The Revelation.
Love is why HE birthed humankind and gave man such a beautiful planet, Etc.
The same reason why people make the decision to have children.
Do you hate those who go astray and just Love your children that obey you ?
Of course not, but those who don't obey you, are not in the position to benefit from your love for them.
That is what is meant by the very-very few verses that say that "God hates".
Love you brother.
maybe people just need to define what love is :-)
Hia Christian. "People" Did define love between the covers of our Bible.
It's from cover to cover brother.
Can't read any part of The Book without having it "defined". :-)
Just look at Hosea for one.
If God is Love ~ Then that Agape Love is "GOD".
He 'is' the definition that was Incarnate and crucified - "GOD our Savior".
my friend do you understand that man is depraved and dead in their sins (eph 2) and he is unable to come to Christ apart from God raising him from the dead. Why do you think God saves men? do you think God owes any man salvation? If God let justice stand we'd all be in hell and God would still be Love.
Dude- I was just posteding a link to a similar recent thread... and yes I do understand the unmeritted favor and mercies of our Holy God :o)
In Christ - Jim
Luke 14:26; If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
The Greek word here for ‘hate’ is miseo and it carries a meaning that spans from the deepest “detestation” to a simple “loved less.”
How are [u]we
We see then that the [u]context
1) allow scripture to interpret scripture
2) a text without a context is a pretext.
Vines dictionary of New Testament Greek words gives us some insight into the full gamut of the meaning of ‘hate’. He also speaks specifically to its meaning in Luke 14:26. He writes that miseo is used to indicate a relative preference for one thing over another, by way of expressing either aversion from, or disregard for, the claims of one person or thing relatively to those of another.
In Matthew 6:24, and Luke 16:13 it demonstrates the impossibility of serving two masters. In Luke 14:26, as to the claims of parents relatively to those of Christ. In John 12:25 it speaks of disregard for one's life relatively to the claims of Christ. We can simplify this by comparing two passages:
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:37)
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)
Notice Matthew 10:37 is saying essentially the same thing as Luke 14:26. In one passage we are told if we “love family more” we cannot be a disciple and in the other passage we are told if we don’t “love family less” we cannot be a disciple. This essentially means that you love everything less than Christ. It does not mean you ‘detest’ your family. And it certainly does not mean that God detests sinners and expects us to love them. An example of this is seen by comparing two more passages:
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? (Matthew 19:27)
‘Forsaken’ here is the Greek word afieemi and it essentially means “to let go” or to "let drop." It is translated as ‘forgive’ in some passages to indicate that the transgression was allowed ‘to drop.’ If we interpret the passage as thus it is seen how the next passage can be equally true without contradiction:
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? (I Corinthians 9:5)
did Peter forsake his wife? Then how was he leading her about? We see here that the same Peter (Cephas) had a wife that he ‘lead about.’ The Greek word for ‘lead about’ meant that he took her with him whereever he went. This is not forsaken in the sense of leaving behind, but is afieemi or ‘letting go’ in the sense that he did not consider her a possession to be grasped (Philippians 2:6). He lived his life as though he had no wife, etc. (I Corinthians 7:29). To have forsaken his family in the sense of abandonment would have meant he denied the faith and become worse than an infidel. (I Timothy 5:8) This is why young zealot Christians need to keep reading their bibles. They start making whole doctrines out of half-truths. Pretty soon people are supposed to hate their parents and God hates sinners. :-?
Moreover we are told to Honor our father and mother which is the first commandment with promise, that it may be well with thee and thou may live long upon the earth (Ephesians 5:29). If any curse his father or mother let them die the death. (Matthew 15:4; Mark 7:10)
Detesting the family also does not square with Paul telling the men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. (Ephesians 5:25)
So what did our Lord mean in these passages on hating family? What can we understand when we read that God HATES? He meant that we must love them less than we love Him and if it comes down to following Him or them- we follow Him. Some things God does detest- but certainly we cannot apply this in a blanket way to all sinners. To "love less" is almost certainly in view.
Could it be possible that we just don't understand God's definition of love? Could it be that we are humans and God is God and we simply don't grasp how that electing sinners to hell unconditionally is a 'loving' thing to do? Could it be that we cannot trust our 'sense' of love and hate? Is it a fair argument to contend that since the fall of man his idea and concept of love has been corrupted and had we not fallen we would understand how God hating sinners is the loving thing to do and is in no wise in contradiction to Him being love?
When a Christian is truly Born Again they have the Holy Spirit living inside. All of their senses (perceptions) and understanding are brought back into square with the way God designed them. This is why the argument that "we don't understand God's love" is impossible. "His love is different than our love, etc." is an answer used in the polemic arguments of the 16th and 17th century.
Think upon this for a moment; if I (we) cannot trust our (my) God given perception of love that was resident in my human nature and regenerated in Christ- then all of this is a sham. Would God seek to deceive man into believing love was one thing when in reality it was something else? Would He so deceive the regenerate that they could not trust their sense of love and hate? If we know not how to love- how can we fulfill the commands? This is the madness of trying to obscure the meaning of the word 'love' or any other word. Whether it be adape, phileo, stergos or eros- we have a human sense of what these things means and that 'sense' in the regenerate is reliable.
Great post Robert.
While I always thought Luke 14:26 was hyperbole, Psalm 5:5 does appear to say God hates sinners, or at least is capable of it.
Care to break down this scripture?
It was the thread starters original question.
**edit**
Once again, please do not cast me into any certain group, lot, or camp regarding this or any other topic…I am just tossing things out there to see what the saints have to say.
I am so glad that God LOVES evildoers, because "[i]there is none righteous, no not one[i]WHILE we were YET sinners
:-)
Brother Robert, you nailed it in your post above, we have reformulated His love into "adape".
:-D very good ! Adapted a love that we "think" is His.
Seriously, Thanks!
God loves everyone in that God wills the good of all, God wants everyone to come to repentance and be saved.
hmmhmm wrote:
but Gods "hate" should not be confused with our for the most of the time sinful hate. When God hates something its not when i hate something. Gods hate is Holy and Good. I believe God hates the sinner, but at the same time he loves him so much he sent his only begotten son to be slaughtered on a tree.
Something good to point out is the Bible does not teach us how to hate, but how to love. And is a command.
These verses ~~~~Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.~~~~ (Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife,1135 and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot, be my disciple.) As RobertW pointed out, the Greek meaning for hate miseo carries a meaning that spans from “detest” or “love less.” These verses to me also deal with love and devotion towards Christ. (Placing Our Lord first) This to me is where we find freedom from our idols. For instance so-called homosexual believers who claim to worship Christ but are not willing to give up their homosexuality. So they through this verse find themselves unworthy of Christ's atonement, for their unwillingness to give homosexuality up for Christ. Or the alcoholic or drug addicts ect. This goes all the way down to placing your own family member before Christ, then becomes an idol. Like fishing isn't bad, but if your not willing to give your fishing up for Christ if he so requires, this now exposes an idol, something you place before Christ.
Back to hate. We are not commanded to hate, but commanded to love, and the word of God teaches us how to walk properly down the roads of love. RobertW warned (that a person who hates his brother is in darkness (I John 2:9)
To hate sin is a motivating way to fight against the darkness. But to Biblically Love is far greater and the best way. This I know is what we are to strive for. Remember the two greatest commandments. This leads to the greater ways of defeating all darkness. The Lord Love and bless you all. I pray he bring greater fires of this Holy Love to us all and bring us closer to him in greater levels.
Matthew Henry believed God had a hatred of a certain type of sinner.
Matthew Henry's Commentary on Psalm 5:5
As an encouragement to his prayers against his enemies; they were wicked men, and therefore enemies to God, and such as he had not pleasure in. See here. (1.) The holiness of God's nature. When he says, Thou art not a God that has pleasure in wickedness, he means, “Thou art a God that hates it, as directly contrary to thy infinite purity and rectitude, and holy will.” Though the workers of iniquity prosper, let none thence infer that God has pleasure in wickedness, no, not in that by which men pretend to honour him, as those do that hate their brethren, and cast them out, and say, Let the Lord be glorified. God has no pleasure in wickedness, though covered with a cloak of religion. Let those therefore who delight in sin know that God has no delight in them; nor let any say, when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God is not the author of sin, neither shall evil dwell with him, that is, it shall not always be countenanced and suffered to prosper. Dr. Hammond thinks this refers to that law of Moses which would not permit strangers, who persisted in their idolatry, to dwell in the land of Israel. (2.) The justice of his government. The foolish shall not stand in his sight, that is, shall not be smiled upon by him, nor admitted to attend upon him, nor shall they be acquitted in the judgment of the great day. The workers of iniquity are very foolish. Sin is folly, and sinners are the greatest of all fools; not fools of God's making (those are to be pitied), for he hates nothing that he has made, but fools of their own making, and those he hates. Wicked people hate God; justly therefore are they hated of him, and it will be their endless misery and ruin. “Those whom thou hatest thou shalt destroy;” particularly two sorts of sinners, who are here marked for destruction: - [1.] Those that are fools, that speak leasing or lying, and that are deceitful. There is a particular emphasis laid on these sinners (Rev_21:8), All liars, and (Psa_22:15), Whosoever loves and makes a lie; nothing is more contrary than this, and therefore nothing more hateful to the God of truth. [2.] Those that are cruel: Thou wilt abhor the bloody man; for inhumanity is no less contrary, no less hateful, to the God of mercy, whom mercy pleases. Liars and murderers are in a particular manner said to resemble the devil and to be his children, and therefore it may well be expected that God should abhor them. These were the characters of David's enemies; and such as these are still the enemies of Christ and his church, men perfectly lost to all virtue and honour; and the worse they are the surer we may be of their ruin in due time.
There are certain rules of biblical interpretation that are being clearly overlooked by those in the "God hates..." camp. One important rule is the fact that you do not and cannot make doctrine out of certain portions of the Psalms. Certainly David was moved upon by the Spirit of God and wrote under inspiration. However, you must also understand that many of the Psalms are David's raw human heart being poured out to the Lord. The nature of many of the Psalms are David, "Pour(ing) out my (his) soul..." Psalms 42:4.
If someone were to overhear my personal prayer time with the Lord and attempt to make doctrine out of everything I say, well let's just say that would be some messed up doctrine! :-)
Much of the Psalms are just that, David's pesonal conversations with the Lord. Therefore the Psalms are not meant to be primarily a source of doctrine, but a glimpse into what a Davidic heart of worship looks like. It looks like a man whoes heart is passionately honest before God.
So if one is to take Psalms 5:5 which states
"you hate all who do wrong. " and make doctrine out of it . . . then you must do the same with David's statement in Psalms 31:6 which states
"I hate those who cling to worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD." In this passage it is not God whom David is saying hates the sinner, but it is David stating that HE hates the sinner. Therefore, if one is to make doctrine out of Psalms 5:5 and say that GOD hates sinners, we must also make doctrine out of Psalms 31:6. That would mean that we must hate sinners as well. Yet this clearly contradicts Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27;35 etc... which basically instruct us to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..."
My point? If the emotionally charged, honest and passionate worship of David (which were never meant to be teaching or doctrinal statements) contradict passages of scripture which were clearly meant to be doctrinal in nature . . . than we must simply understand that David's emotionally charged Psalms were not meant to set doctrinal precedents but were meant to be a window into a life of honest, gut-level worship and devotion to God.
You must always take the whole counsel of God as doctrine and not a sprinkling of unclear verses that seem to contradict the whole.
These are just my thoughts...
God Bless,
Jeff
That sounds mighty liberal to me. It says what it says and God is in control.
My dear brother . . . if you are correct then please explain the seeming contradiction to me. I would be honored to hear your response. I would also challenge you to take the Psalms of David and write up a doctrinal statement based upon every proclamation David made. You would find many seeming contradictions and elements of humanity. Any scholar will tell you that the Psalms primary purpose is not for establishing doctrine. And FYI I am about as far from being liberal as there can be. I am not a KJV worshipper - but I hold unswervingly to the word of God.
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