Matthew 20? | SermonIndex

sermonindex Apr 26, 2004

WHat's with this passage? First Jesus tells us that all will be treated equally in Heaven, no matter at what point in our lives we become saved. (What really confuses me about this passage is that it implies that people saved in heaven grumble! about anything) Next when the two mothers ask Jesus for their sons to sit at the right and left hand of Jesus in heaven, He tells them that the station of people in heaven will be decided by God the Father alone. But this contradicts the earlier passage that implies that everyone's station in heaven will be the same. I don't get it.JakeThe Laborers in the Vineyard20 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2After agreeing with the laborers for the usual daily wage,a he sent them into his vineyard. 3When he went out about nine o'clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace; 4and he said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went. 5When he went out again about noon and about three o'clock, he did the same. 6And about five o'clock he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why are you standing here idle all day?' 7They said to him, 'Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard.' 8When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, 'Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.' 9When those hired about five o'clock came, each of them received the usual daily wage.b 10Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received the usual daily wage.c 11And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, 12saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' 13But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?d 14Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. 15Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?'e 16So the last will be first, and the first will be last."f A Third Time Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection 17 While Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside by themselves, and said to them on the way, 18"See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death; 19then they will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified; and on the third day he will be raised."The Request of the Mother of James and John 20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling before him, she asked a favor of him. 21And he said to her, "What do you want?" She said to him, "Declare that these two sons of mine will sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom." 22But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?"g They said to him, "We are able." 23He said to them, "You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left, this is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." 24 When the ten heard it, they were angry with the two brothers. 25But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave; 28just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."

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InTheLight Apr 26, 2004

First Jesus tells us that all will be treated equally in Heaven, no matter at what point in our lives we become saved.That's quite an assumption Jake. How did you come to the conclusion that this is what Jesus is saying through this parable? Can you give us your interpretation of this parable in detail? In Christ,Ron

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KeithLaMothe Apr 26, 2004

You can do better than that, Jake, if you're trying to show that Scripture seems to indicate both equality and difference of reward in heaven.I'm not taking a particular position here, just quoting some passages that I'd like explained myself.Matthew 209 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.10 But when the first came, they supposed they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the master of the house,12 saying, `These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.'13 But he answered one of them and said, `Friend, I do thee no wrong. Didst thou not agree with me for a penny?14 Take that which is thine and go thy way. I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?'So, in this parable, the workers are given the same wage regardless of how much of the day they actually worked (which I think, as you seem to, represents the stage in their life when they converted). I think there's a degree of emphasis on the idea that the master is being generous to those who worked less, and that no one can rightly object to the master being generous if he wants to. Does this mean that everyone gets the same reward in Heaven? In a sense, every Christian (true Christian, mind you) gets the same reward: salvation. But there's a number of verses that speak of some being greater or lesser than others in "the Kingdom of Heaven" or receiving more or less reward.Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 2 John 16 And this is love: that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.7 For many deceivers have entered into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we may receive a full reward.Would the Apostle say "full reward" unless there were some possibility of receiving less (or none)? I'm interested to know what people know about this verse, as I'm making a very face-value interpretation here.Matthew 511 Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for My sake.12 Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in Heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.Matthew 619 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal;20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.Matthew 181 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?"2 And Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set him in the midst of them,3 and said, "Verily I say unto you, unless ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.Would the word "greatest" be used if there were not lesser?Mark 10:21Then Jesus, beholding him, loved him and said unto him, "One thing thou lackest: Go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." Is this referring to salvation, or some kind of reward? (I think the Catholics like to use this one)Matthew 16:27For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward every man according to his works.That wouldn't sit well with a lot of people's theology.Luke 6:35But love ye your enemies, and do good and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest; for He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 1 Corinthians 3 7 So then, neither is he that planteth anything, nor he that watereth, but God who giveth the increase.8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one, and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.9 For we are laborers together with God; ye are God's husbandry; ye are God's building.10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.11 For no man can lay another foundation than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if any man build upon this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,13 every man's work shall be made manifest; for the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall test every man's work of what sort it is.14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereon, he shall receive a reward.15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as fire.So we've got two people, both going to Heaven ("saved"), one getting a reward, the other suffering loss, according to how their work stands up?Revelation 2211 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still."12 "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every man according as his work shall be.13 I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."According to our works? I presume this passage isn't particularly popular.I was primarily looking for verses that seem to indicate different rewards in Heaven, anyone know some other good ones (other than the passage in Matthew 20, that is) that support equality of reward?Or is it perhaps the case (this isn't rhetorical, it's a genuine question) that there is little if any support for such a concept, and the parable in question isn't really saying the reward will be equal?God's grace be with you all, in Christ Jesus our Lord,-Keith

sermonindex Apr 26, 2004

Keith, I'm not trying to show anything. It just seems like the two passages are saying different, conflicting things. Neither of you responded to the "grumbling" comment. That is perhaps even more confusing to me: people granted salvation are grumbling in heaven about others receiving the same gift??Jake

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InTheLight Apr 26, 2004

Neither of you responded to the "grumbling" comment. That is perhaps even more confusing to me: people granted salvation are grumbling in heaven about others receiving the same gift?? It certainly is confusing if you accept this meaning of the parable that you are giving. Again, can you give us details on why you are interpreting it this way?In Christ,Ron

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KeithLaMothe Apr 26, 2004

Neither of you responded to the "grumbling" comment. That is perhaps even more confusing to me: people granted salvation are grumbling in heaven about others receiving the same gift??It's a parable, not a prophecy, but what difference that makes is somewhat unclear.Some differences come to mind, however, between the parable and our actual relationship with Christ:1)Matthew 201 "For the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.2 And when he had agreed with the laborers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.Does the Lord hire us? Does he negotiate with us our wages? Do we work, and He owe us wages (or anything)?6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said unto them, `Why stand ye here all the day idle?'7 They said unto him, `Because no man hath hired us.' He said unto them, `Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.'Does He tell us to work for Him, and promise to give us what is right (or rightly deserved)?11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the master of the house,12 saying, `These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.'Complaining against God is sin, those in Heaven will not sin. I realize this is your initial point, I'm just trying to show the ways in which this parable does not hold tightly to a Christian's relationship with Jesus Christ.13 But he answered one of them and said, `Friend, I do thee no wrong. Didst thou not agree with me for a penny?14 Take that which is thine and go thy way. I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.Will we be given our reward and told to depart? No, because we are not hired labor, we are servants (bondservants, i.e. slaves for life, as some translations render it) and adopted sons (and daughters) of God.I'm interested to know what other people make of the parable, which is about the Kingdom of Heaven, but bears significant differences to the relationship of Christians to Jesus Christ.If I weren't so lazy I'd go look it up in some commentaries...

sermonindex Apr 26, 2004

Ron, "For the Kingdom of Heaven is like . . ." isn't this obviously a parable about heaven? DOesn't it clearly indicate that people having spent various times working in the vinyard get the same reward?Jake

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InTheLight Apr 26, 2004

isn't this obviously a parable about heaven?Yes, oviously it is about heaven, but what aspect of heaven? Could this parable be illustrating the equity with which God deals with all men, Jew and Gentile, concerning admittance to heaven? Why do you see the grumbling as taking place in heaven? Who among men at that time might be grumbling about others coming into the privledges and advantages of the vineyard?In Christ,Ron

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Gideons Apr 26, 2004

Ron,I'm no theologian by any stretch but I believe this refers to admittance as you said. As far as the treasures in heaven, sometimes I get tired of talking about having a gold house and all this stuff in heaven (what could be more reward than to be in Jesus presence?). I'm praying for a reward that consists of other people the Lord has touched because He has allowed me to be broken and show His love to others. When I think back on all of the people God has used in my life, I think when they see me they will realize my presence in heaven is in part due to their obedience to God. I'm not talking about boasting about how great we are or spiritual pride, but because God loved us, He enabled us to love others and speak to them through the power of His Spirit.One such man in my life (from when I was 12), I wrote him a letter and explained to him how God had used him to sustain me during a difficult time in my life. He sent me a letter back shortly before he died and I will never forget him.May his love shine in our hearts. Perhaps I drifted off topic here and if so I apologize...

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JKail Apr 26, 2004

I think that the people who are grumbling could be compared to the older son in the prodigal son parable. They are upset because someone who lived in sin there entire life is now coming to Christ in his last days and reciving salvation. (like the thief on the cross next to Christ) I do not believe that they are grumbling in heaven but here on earth. God is trying to say that none of us deserve salvation, we are saved by grace and should rejoice when others are saved, especially when they are saved just before death. The attitude of the Older Son is that of a Pharisee, and we need to avoid it. Whether we are called when we are 5 years old or when we are 100 years old, it is by grace. Thats my take, I hope it helps.-Jake Kail

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philologos Apr 28, 2004

WHat's with this passage? First Jesus tells us that all will be treated equally in Heaven, no matter at what point in our lives we become saved. (What really confuses me about this passage is that it implies that people saved in heaven grumble! about anything) Next when the two mothers ask Jesus for their sons to sit at the right and left hand of Jesus in heaven, He tells them that the station of people in heaven will be decided by God the Father alone. But this contradicts the earlier passage that implies that everyone's station in heaven will be the same. I don't get it.JakeI know you don't get it Jake. This is because your whole attitude to the book is in error. You constantly set yourself in position as its judge rather than humbly submitting to its examination of your own life. People nearly always find what they are looking for in scripture. You are looking for evidence that will allow you to ignore its plain teaching. You will find it without too much difficulty. The reason you don't like this parable is because it is 'you' it is talking about.You frequently accuse folks in this forum of being literalists, and yet you seem to have no understanding at all of the nature and purpose of a parable. A parable has one main purpose in life; the other details flesh out the story. Frequently the parables of Jesus were known stories which his hearers knew well. The purpose of this particular parable is to demonstrate the single stunning truth that God is not fair!I know that this is a concept that you have continuing difficulty with, but God does not deal with us according to our desserts. He deals with us according to grace. We are not saved by the amount of time or energy we put into God's work, but by His acceptance of us on His own terms. This concept is always offensive to work-based schemes of salvation which is effectively what your own version of reincarnation is. It was also offensive to the the Judaism of Christ (and Paul's time) which had become achievement orientated.The comment on 'grumblers' was not aimed at people in heaven but groups on earth who thought (or in your case, think) that their acceptance with God is linked in some way to their contributions or achievement. Salvation by grace, through faith, is never proportional nor based on some kind of ratio.Every religious system which has ever existed is based on the notion that I can deserve something by behaving differently. Biblical Christianity alone is based on the revelation captured by Augustus Toplady...'nothing in my hand I bringsimply to Thy cross I cling'

sermonindex Apr 28, 2004

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' This seems clear to me.Ron (Philologos) I think you misunderstand what I believe.Quakers believe that there is "that of God" in everyone and that we are to walk the earth cheerfully seeking out and speaking to "that of God" in others. This belief system fits with the passage above very well.I believe in reincarnation not because of anything in the Bible, or anything to do with Quakerism. I have had my own experience as a young child with very clear visions of a past life in India. THere are numerous examples of young children telling of past lives where the details were very accurate. Impossibly so.My faith is not shaken by seeming contraditions between the bible and science or real life experiences. I see the bible as a spiritual guide which explains the why of life, but not necessarily the how. Thus, evolution doesn't upset my faith. Reincarnation doesn't either. Neither reflect upon the love of Christ and the salvation that comes through belief in Him as the Son of God and ransom for our sins.Jake

sermonindex Apr 28, 2004

Quakers believe that there is "that of God" in everyone and that we are to walk the earth cheerfully seeking out and speaking to "that of God" in others. This belief system fits with the passage above very well.Jake, I must agree with what Ron (philogos) said! The way you are using these discussion boards is not edifying to others that are in Jesus Christ and I have (along with others) have been praying for God to open your eyes of understanding. It seems to me that since you have come and posted 300 messages you have NOT taken any of the wisdom from above that was offered to you through peoples responses. You in most cases have simply denyed the truth and stated your own beliefs which you see at truth but are really lies. You also claim to Quakerism but have not the first idea what truley quakers are. The modern Quaker movement is quite far from the truth that the light within leads you to. I personally have been sitting (figurativly) at the feet of George Fox as I have been reading through his journals, epsitles, doctrinal books, etc. The spirit that George Fox spoke in is NOT the spirit that is in the current movement of the quakers in most places.By arguing and debating one does not come into the kingdom of God but by divine revelation of the truth of God, namely Christ Jesus."That which I was moved to declare was this: that...as the Spirit of God was in them that gave forth the Scriptures, so the same Spirit of God must be in them that come to understand the Scriptures...and without this Spirit they can know neither God nor Christ, nor the Scriptures, nor have right fellowship with one another."-George Fox

sermonindex Apr 28, 2004

Greg,I appreciate your reply yet must ask, have you attended silent Quaker worship for any length of time in order to appreciate the depth of the spirit revealed there? If not, how can you be a judge of what the liberal Quaker movement is. Yes, there are a range of testimonies that I find questionable. (There are people who speak out their own thoughts and are not patient enough to "wait upon the Lord." One woman recently stated that John 3:16 was "sexist.") But these are discernable and if they were not allowed, there would be interference in the worship process and this would block Righteous testimony from Christ. Meeting for worship is an open place for Seekers of Spritual Truth, and thus of course some chaff gets in with the wheat. God sorts it out for those who listen for and know Him. I am confident in my faith, but it seems you and Ron are not. Do I hear "Grumbling"? :-) Jake

sermonindex Apr 28, 2004

Jake, for lack of better words thats digusting! I would deem that on the level of when a holy puritan man came into a quaker meeting once to witness 2 black ravens fly in a window and land on two peoples heads in the meeting house. The heads that the black ravens landed on vomited violently. The righteous puritan man left in reverent fear that God would judge that meeting house. Surely the spirit of God was not present but people were opening their hearts and minds to unseen influnces.If there is meeting house where such plain words of the antichrist can be spoken without righteous judgement on it then surely the spirit of Christ IS NOT present, even though you would want to affirm that it is."There is no salvation by any other name under the whole heaven but the name of Jesus … They which have been dead in sin and transgression he makes them to sit together in heavenly places … and … come to be gathered in the name of Jesus. So, gathered in the name of Jesus we have salvation of life and redeemer[ship] and mediatorship and peace with God is known [and] he is in the midst of them. For … Christ saith "Where two or three are gathered in my name I am in the midst of them". Then [if Christ be in the midst] there is righteousness in the midst, life in the midst … light and truth and a saviour and redeemer in the midst to you that be gathered in his name and refresh you. And so he is the head and they are the church and then the head is in the midst of the church ordering the body and ordering the church and ordering his faithful ones and saints."-George Fox

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JKail Apr 28, 2004

Jake, Maybe this is outside of the topic here, but I cannot help but ask this question: what sermons do you listen to on this website? Every person preaching on this site preaches with the authority of the Word of God, which you claim is full of error. It seems like every post you make is trying to undermine the authority of Scripture. Are you truly seeking answers to these questions or meerly trying to cause controversy with your posts? If you don't believe in the authority of Scripture than there is no sense posting all of your comments because you are coming from a completely different view than everyone else on this site.Let me assure you, you would be much better off standing upon the Word of God whether you can wrap your mind around it all or not. Who are you to question Almighty God? -Jake Kail

sermonindex Apr 28, 2004

Greg,Rest assured that people who voice such ignorant things in meeting are rebuked by God speaking through others. The woman's testimony (not the right word for it) was followed by further testimony that clearly contradicted her and was also clearly righteous and of God. SO the contrast was clear to all and was learning moment for the congregation. I used it as an example of people who do not know God but whom are seeking. God did speak to her in the end and I pray that she heard it.Jake

sermonindex Apr 28, 2004

J Kail,The Bible is not "full of error" it is full of truth. But it is not all of it literal truth. I am not questioning Almight God. I am interpreting scriptures in a different manner than you do. I am not trying to undermine the authority of Scripture, either. It has great authority for me. But I understand how it has been handed down through the ages, translated through several languages by many and that it has been argued over by those who did so as to what belongs and what not and how to interpret the meanings of various words. And I understand human nature in the manner of these things and know they mistranslate, make errors. Yet, the Truth comes through anyhow, which is a testimony to the strength of God's true word.On a personal note, I have enjoyed very much and learned alot from the contributions and writings of members of this forum. especially recently Oilpainter and MoreofHim. (thanks)But I guess it is time for me to cease posting and discussing here as it only upsets people.Jake

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philologos Apr 29, 2004

Jake wroteI am confident in my faith, but it seems you and Ron are not. Do I hear "Grumbling"?Hi Jake,Not from this corner of the world you don't. Do you mean I am not confident in your faith? That would be accurate but has never provoked 'grumbling' here although I have not been beyond a little 'groaning'.As you say 'you don't get it'. I know you don't and I don't blame you for that. But you are required to take heed of the words of Jesus who said 'have you not read...'. God has trusted into our hands an extraordinary book. It is a comprehensive relevation of His will inspired over millennia and through dozens of individuals. Its inspiring Spirit has been recognized by men and women for hundreds of years. There are two main principles of interpretation; those who subject it to their rational processes, and those who subject their rational processes to it. When the stony heart turns the stony ears will soon become sensitive.In all your posts this has been the underlying issue. The specific details have varied but always the underlying theme has been 'has God said?' You will recognize the quote from Gen 2:1; it is the first recorded instance of an attempt to undermine the Biblical revelation. My purpose over all these months has been to restate the classical Christian answer of 'yes'. And what God has said can be relied on rationally, and must be relied on personally.You have my email. If you genuinely want to continue any of our conversations outside the arena, please do.