All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.

I am assuming that you don't mean to offend us. So I am trying very hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I was a Calvinist for 3 years. THEN I realized that my understanding of the scriptures aligns with Arminianism. I only stayed Calvinist that long because all my church leaders were Calvinist and they kept giving me Calvinist books. They also kept me from seeking true holiness for those 3 years too.
I pray always that God will continue to give ways that the person can hear, give circumstances so that the person can be humbled, and all sorts of things. So I pray like an Arminian too.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

brother abe,

please tell me that was a joke. i am not an arminian and that was a horrible understanding of the freewill position.

That's Calvinism. So maybe we're all calvinist.

here is a question for you..

since when does the fact that we who believe that God has allowed mankind to either accept or reject mean that we "hope in the ability of the flesh"?? if we are convicted by the Holy Spirit and place our faith (that God has given man) in Him for salvation, then we have nothing boast in of ourselves. why do most calvanist think that we boast of that so much?? salvation is totally something God does, but God has commanded that for salvation, the condition is that man repent of his sin and believe on Christ. man cannot make themselves born again and no one who believes in freewill would ever prefess that.

a man who cannot do anything except call for help and place his trust and faith in the rescuer has nothing of himself to boast in.. nothing.

Dear brother Abraham,

I feel in my heart that I need to share with you something about this, and your recent threads. So take this in love.

You don't need this brother, you don't need it.
You don't need it, we don't this kind of labeling - Calvinists-Arminianists.
I assume and believe that you have honest heart for the Lord, but in order to enter into deep fellowship with the Holy Spirit we need brother to quit from this bondage of doctrines.

The description on this section of the forums says:
"Test everything, Hold on to the good." - 1 Thess 5:21. Here you will find discussions on all different scriptures and theological positions. Please discuss with an spirit of edification not dissention or strife.

And this is very poor way of fellowshipping of the saints of God, labeling with man's names.
Maybe you think that your theology is life or death important, but brother please realize that you may be in bondage to it.

Please realize that devil is greatest theologian from all of us, and is still devil.

What we need is LIFE, we need life from God, we need Spirit filled life, life is above doctrines and theology. The last can brought death.

I like Spurgeon on this:

"So my theological friend over there,
who knows so much that he can split hairs over doctrines-
it does not matter what you think, or what you know,
unless it leads you to glorify God, and to be thankful.
No, your knowledge may be a millstone about your neck to
sink you down to eternal woe, unless your knowledge is
turned to holy practice. "

And brother Ravenhill:

"Your doctrine can be as straight as a gun barrel-and just as empty!"

"You can have all of your doctrines right, yet still not have the presence of God."

Most of our preachers need to get free from their denomination, you go to church, what do you hear?
Do you meet God, or do you meet your church's theology, you meet your church's doctrine?
How often you go and come out breathing, and gasping - God The Holy Ghost was at that meeting and I absolutely shaken to my feet?

I believe this is the heart, and this should be the heart of our fellowshipping here.
We need the LIFE of Christ to flow from our lives, not the doctrine of Calvin or Arminia.

And when that LIFE is flowing out of us, it cannot went unrecognized! It is holy fragrant!

I am very sad, seeing that from many of the Calvinists their doctrine is their god, because they are in bondage to it and it flows out are just words of death. We need freedom from this!

I have heard labels to Spurgeon as Calvinist.
Brother, I love this Calvinist!

Because I have never read this man to preach Calvin or forcing some doctrine. But I have seen this man preaching Christ. I have seen Jesus in this man. I have seen tears, travail, call for repentance, call for love to Christ, I have seen such burden for lost souls that is so rarely, I have seen cry for the lost. This man has been sold out to Jesus and in bondage to Jesus, not to doctrine. I like his 'doctrine'.

I believe also that to be free from theological and doctrinal bondage you need death. As to every other matter. But everything begins from the death to self.

I posted this in the other thread, let me post it again, because really touches the heart of what I want to express here:

"There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals oft he faith year after year, strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their personal lives. They minister constantly to believers who feel within their breasts a longing which their teaching simply does not satisfy. I trust I speak in charity, but the lack in our pulpits is real. Milton's terrible sentence applies to our day as accurately as it did to his: `The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.'
It is a solemn thing, and no small scandal in the Kingdom, to see God's children starving while actually seated at the Father's table. The truth of Wesley's words is established before our eyes: `Orthodoxy, or right opinion, is, at best, a very slender part of religion. Though right tempers cannot subsist without right opinions,yet right opinions may subsist without right tempers. There may be a right opinion of God without either love or one right temper toward Him. Satan is proof of this.'

Thanks to our splendid Bible societies and to other effective agencies for the dissemination of the Word, there are today many millions of people who hold `right opinions,' probably more than ever before in the history of the Church.Yet I wonder if there was ever a time when true spiritual worship was ever a time when true spiritual worship was at a lower ebb. To great sections of the Church the art of worship has been lost entirely, and in its place has come that strange and foreign thing called the `program.' This word has been borrowed from the stage and applied with sad wisdom to the type of public service which now passes for worship among us.
[color=000099]
Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But exposition may be carried on in such way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience, they are not the better for having heard the truth. The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."
-A. W. Tozer Chicago, Ill. June 16, 1948.
(From the Preface of The Pursuit of God)

[/color]

Hi Abe...

I am not an "arminian."
I am not a "calvinist."
I just love the Lord.

When I "met" the Lord as a young teen at summer camp, I told Him that I would give everything I am -- and everything that I would ever be -- if I could just know Him and be His friend. It was a few months before I noticed the squabble between the "once saved/always saved" crowd and those who don't believe in that concept. I've often wondered why individuals so viciously try to align themselves with one of two opposing sides. Why can't an individual just be himself/herself in the Lord?

In times of such ridiculous and petty doctrinal disputes, I am always reminded about the position of the angel of the Lord when he was asked by Joshua, "[i]Art thou for us, or for our adversaries[/i]?" What was the answer? "[i]And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come[/i]" (Joshua 3:13-14).

God help us to align ourselves with the independent attitude of the Lord's camp!

:-)

Hello, all.

I can understand the intensity of those on each side, who fear the pitfalls associated with either opposing view.

The urgent Calvinist fears that his poor Arminian brothers are days from Socinianism, or may even be false converts yet trusting in the weak arm of the flesh. He wonders, how can they not know how helpless they were to come? He is concerned that their evangelism sends men away self-confident and not altogether stripped of hope in their own abilities.

Meanwhile, the Arminians are repulsed at the seemingly narrow view of God's plan of salvation held by their Calvinist brothers. Can one be truly a Christian and not perceive the all encompassing, unlimited atonement of Christ? They fear that their brothers may become fatalistic or cold to evangelism.

It is a real issue, one that cannot be tucked so easily away. Yet we must have it in love.

I recommend all to read the introduction to J.I.Packer's "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God", in which he uses a none-too-similar illustration of prayer as evidence of universal Christian belief in
-unconditional election - that is, God's mercy apart from merit
- extensive unwillingness - that is, no one is willing or able to come to God apart from divine movement upon them
- and irresistible grace - that is, we pray for God to move on them whether or not they are seeking it.

Packer states it more cogently than I have done.

Anyways, let's make this thread a little more brotherly (and sisterly ;-) )

So much thankfulness for you who have taught me,

It is a funny thing that if this were one of those very long free will, or moral governmenat posts, most would be saying Amen, but whne a differeing view is presented, and a very good example is pointed out, men recoil and say, "how dare you."

Here's a quote from Spurgeon for you all to thnk over as I have-

[i]"I have heard it asserted most positively, that those high doctrines which we love and which we find in the Scriptures, are licentious ones. I do not know who has the hardihood to make that assertion, when they consider that the holiest of men have been believers in them. I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitfield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace; or what will he say of those Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing; but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they the orthodox."[/i]

Spurgeon also said

Again let me remind you that the Scriptures plainly teach us that the atonement of
our Lord Jesus Christ has a universal bearing; and it seems to me that those who
limit the value of the atonement do most seriously err from the faith. I believe the
sacrifice of Jesus Christ was so infinite that, if there had been ten thousand worlds
full of sinners to have been redeemed, it was amply sufficient to have redeemed them
all.

but i also wonder how do you as a person that belive in this doctrine, how do you pray? do you ever pray for a lost person? even when you know(if you belive so) that your prayer will never do anything except God choose that person you happend to pray fore? if not are your prayers just wasted? I really wonder how you view that issue?

What worries me about this doctrine is if could be possible for all those who are saved to never pray one single prayer, never witness one single time to anybody and still God would save all who he has chosen. I know what many are going to answer and to think such thoughts i consider "carnal".

But in the end when i view and think about this Calvanistic Doctrine this is what i come to. because it leaves all responsibility to God.

Edit: this sermon is not about Calvanism vs arminianism. But its about sound doctrine, and it is a Good sermon to listen to no matter what "doctrine" one has. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2546]Sound doctrine in life A.W Tozer (Titus series)[/url]

i just think you calvanists make God so small,

my God is powerful and sovereign and can save sinners to the uttermost who repent and believe in the eternal almighty Gods son.

it grives me deeply people ignore so much scriptures, just for a "doctrine"

Dear brother Abraham,

I feel in my heart that I need to share with you something about this, and your recent threads. So take this in love.

You don't need this brother, you don't need it.
You don't need it, we don't this kind of labeling - Calvinists-Arminianists.
I assume and believe that you have honest heart for the Lord, but in order to enter into deep fellowship with the Holy Spirit we need brother to quit from this bondage of doctrines.

The description on this section of the forums says:
"Test everything, Hold on to the good." - 1 Thess 5:21. Here you will find discussions on all different scriptures and theological positions. Please discuss with an spirit of edification not dissention or strife.

And this is very poor way of fellowshipping of the saints of God, labeling with man's names.
Maybe you think that your theology is life or death important, but brother please realize that you may be in bondage to it.

Please realize that devil is greatest theologian from all of us, and is still devil.

What we need is LIFE, we need life from God, we need Spirit filled life, life is above doctrines and theology. The last can brought death.

I like Spurgeon on this:

"So my theological friend over there,
who knows so much that he can split hairs over doctrines-
it does not matter what you think, or what you know,
unless it leads you to glorify God, and to be thankful.
No, your knowledge may be a millstone about your neck to
sink you down to eternal woe, unless your knowledge is
turned to holy practice. "

And brother Ravenhill:

"Your doctrine can be as straight as a gun barrel-and just as empty!"

"You can have all of your doctrines right, yet still not have the presence of God."

Most of our preachers need to get free from their denomination, you go to church, what do you hear?
Do you meet God, or do you meet your church's theology, you meet your church's doctrine?
How often you go and come out breathing, and gasping - God The Holy Ghost was at that meeting and I absolutely shaken to my feet?

I believe this is the heart, and this should be the heart of our fellowshipping here.
We need the LIFE of Christ to flow from our lives, not the doctrine of Calvin or Arminia.

And when that LIFE is flowing out of us, it cannot went unrecognized! It is holy fragrant!

I am very sad, seeing that from many of the Calvinists their doctrine is their god, because they are in bondage to it and it flows out are just words of death. We need freedom from this!

I have heard labels to Spurgeon as Calvinist.
Brother, I love this Calvinist!

Because I have never read this man to preach Calvin or forcing some doctrine. But I have seen this man preaching Christ. I have seen Jesus in this man. I have seen tears, travail, call for repentance, call for love to Christ, I have seen such burden for lost souls that is so rarely, I have seen cry for the lost. This man has been sold out to Jesus and in bondage to Jesus, not to doctrine. I like his 'doctrine'.

I believe also that to be free from theological and doctrinal bondage you need death. As to every other matter. But everything begins from the death to self.

I posted this in the other thread, let me post it again, because really touches the heart of what I want to express here:

"There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals oft he faith year after year, strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their personal lives. They minister constantly to believers who feel within their breasts a longing which their teaching simply does not satisfy. I trust I speak in charity, but the lack in our pulpits is real. Milton's terrible sentence applies to our day as accurately as it did to his: `The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.'
It is a solemn thing, and no small scandal in the Kingdom, to see God's children starving while actually seated at the Father's table. The truth of Wesley's words is established before our eyes: `Orthodoxy, or right opinion, is, at best, a very slender part of religion. Though right tempers cannot subsist without right opinions,yet right opinions may subsist without right tempers. There may be a right opinion of God without either love or one right temper toward Him. Satan is proof of this.'

Thanks to our splendid Bible societies and to other effective agencies for the dissemination of the Word, there are today many millions of people who hold `right opinions,' probably more than ever before in the history of the Church.Yet I wonder if there was ever a time when true spiritual worship was ever a time when true spiritual worship was at a lower ebb. To great sections of the Church the art of worship has been lost entirely, and in its place has come that strange and foreign thing called the `program.' This word has been borrowed from the stage and applied with sad wisdom to the type of public service which now passes for worship among us.

Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But exposition may be carried on in such way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience, they are not the better for having heard the truth. The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."
-A. W. Tozer Chicago, Ill. June 16, 1948.
(From the Preface of The Pursuit of God)

hmmhmm wrote:
i just think you calvanists make God so small,

my God is powerful and sovereign and can save sinners to the uttermost who repent and believe in the eternal almighty Gods son.

it grives me deeply people ignore so much scriptures, just for a "doctrine"

Another thing I notice, is that no one is born a Calvinist. We all have an intuitive God-given idea that we freely make choices. I never would have thought that God *arbitrarily* chooses who goes to heaven and hell unless I had heard it from other men.

I do believe God chooses, ordains, foreknows, and predestines those who go to heaven: They are the ones who believe in Jesus Christ and repent of sin.

An Armenian,
Nile

It seems to me that when someone, either calvinist or arminean, places so much emphasis on their doctrine and becomes unwaveringly loyal to their doctrinal camp then something is [b]WAAAAAAAY[/b] out of balance. I hear people talk about Spurgeon, Calvin, Whitefield, etc. but let me say that the secret of their christian life was [b]ABSOLUTELY NOT IN THE FACT THAT THEY WERE CALVINISTS[/b] and neither was Wesley's in the fact that he was in the other camp. So Spurgeon was the prince of preachers. Well, Wesley won more souls to God. 2+2=5???????!!!!!!!
But Wesley's doctrine was [b]DAMNABLE HERESY![/b] or so some would like us to think. Did Spurgeon preach to fix everyone's bad doctrine? Not at all, he preached to bring souls to Christ. The same with Edwards, Whitefield, you name the giants of the faith and I can assure you they weren't out to make disciples of Calvin, they were out to make christians in the best way they knew how. Give me a man who is turning this world upside down for God and I'll ask him what God has done for him. Not what his doctrinal party is.
People love and are loyal to their doctrine even at the expense of a brother or sister in Christ in these kinds of discussions. I don't think it ought to be that way.
Rather than arguing that Wesley was arminiest or Whitefield was calvinist we'd be much better off getting on the floor and crying "God, make my life like that of Whitefield and Wesley!!!!"

[edit] Very well said Jim. That's how I see the matter as well.

Dr. Tozer's & Spurgeon Advice

'I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, “Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?”
And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, “My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”'
-Cliff Westergren

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=6139&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Dr. Tozer's & Spurgeon Advice[/url]

Thanks Mike! That is some wonderfully convicting (and much needed) advice!

:-)

I believe a true sign of Christian maturity comes when a believer can finally reconcile this Calvin/Arminian discrepancy to [i]his or herself[/i], and not feel compelled to draw others into the ring. The wisest men of God knew to avoid it, because such debates are quite unwinable. Believers who wrangle over this topic and use certain scriptures to prove their point are actually spinning their wheels in a mud pit. The engine is screaming, scripture is flying, lots of noise and power and fuel expenditure...but in the end you go nowhere. You're no closer to the destination than when you first put the key in the ignition and turned the engine on.

I believe Tozer was right: We need to get past the urge to participate in these fruitless debates and instead go after God with a single eye. We need to avoid the pits in the road, brethen.

All of us are at points where we are receiving light from the Word. Some of us have more light than others, because more Word has entered in. I can [i]guarantee [/i] that your current theological leanings will change somewhat as more light is imparted to your soul in the future. The trivialities that charmed you in third grade will be forgotten by the time you're in high school -- in fact, you'll look back and see much of it was quite infantile and pointless.

I bless God for the example of Wesley and Whitefield. These two men were not on opposite ends of a theological spectrum by chance. God knew what He was doing, whom he was choosing. He was setting a profound example with these two brothers, showing His ways are so far above and beyond our mortal understandings. Let us therefore get our vessels unstuck and go after God. I realise this post will not change many of your convictions, but I believe someone will read this and realize that it is time to progress to higher grades in God's academy.

Brother Paul