Once saved, always saved?

Hello dear brothers and sisters in Christ, My question is; is it possible for a person to lose his or her salvation? I was leaning on the idea that it could not however could not find a verse in scripture to support my claim. In fact i found a scripture that suggested that it is possible to lose salvation. John 15:6 "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV)I am aware that this may have been discussed earlier. However searching through the forum i could not find it. It would be most appreciated if you could shed some truth into the question. Thank you for your time.

Hi Daryl,Excellent question that should bring about some interesting dialouge.My take is: Yes and no.I think that the parable of the sowers (Matt 13) is really instrumental as it applies to this.Following along with the words of our Lord throughout scripture it is very possible to have been decieved as to be true follower. For instance;"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."Mat 7:21-27So in a nutshell, yes, if you have are not truely saved. Too many warnings about guarding yourself against a false assurance;"Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate."2Co 13:5But absolutely not if you are a true disciple:"So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are really my disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."Joh 8:31,32 "My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."Joh 10:27,28Much more could be said...Edit: This thought came:If you have never been found, you are lostIf you have been found, you cannot be lost"So Jesus said to the twelve, "You don't want to leave, too, do you?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. Besides, we have believed and remain convinced that you are the Holy One of God."Joh 6:67-69

This is such a devisive topic among Christians these days, I cringe whenever I hear those words. Therefore I will let others debate this issue but I just want to say this, assurance of salvation does not come from the lips of men, it only comes from the Holy Spirit. In Christ,Ron

I'm with Ron on this one. It's an in-house debate that causes more trouble than it's worth most of the time. I will say there are extremes to both sides of the issue. I have a friend who has at times cursed God for matters as small as a girl breaking up with him, and basically lives in sin. But he goes to the extreme in saying that since he has believed in Christ, he cannot be lost no matter what. Then I have some other friends who believe that if you make the slightest slip you are immediately lost and you had better repent.We should judge ourselves in this matter. Does the Spirit of God witness to our spirits that we belong to Him? That should be the question we ask ourselves.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

I was once praying about this issue when I sensed these words in my heart: "Hold on to the promises; head the warnings" There are great promises of assurance of salvation to those who believe but also some severe warnings about falling away. We must treat each equally, and preachers must preach both as well. I definitely see problems with going to either extreme. There must be balance; we must preach the whole counsel of God. "The man who fears God will avoid all extremes." (Ecclesiastes 7:18) I think many churches get caught up in there own doctrines and neglect to preach the whole Word of God. -Jake Kail

There's some very wise counsel on this topic.I would simply add the following from Hebrews 12:8 (AMP) "Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all]."So if one is not really saved and strays, will God not discipline him if he is one of his children? Believe me, God disciplines (chastens) and I don't believe it's God's first choice but because of our rebellious hearts, He has no choice. I would suggest reading all of the 12th Chapter of Hebrews as well.Because I know my Father will discipline me if I get out of line, I don't really even think about the question you raised much anymore. But I wrestled with this question for at least 30 years because of a number of things, so I pray that God will give you wisdom.

It all depends on your definitions of'once''saved'and 'always' :-P

This is a touchy topic, and one I'm not dogmatic on, but I'd like to share some Scripture that helped me see past my former presuppositions on the matter. Please be patient and understanding, and I pray the Lord will have me be likewise.My question is; is it possible for a person to lose his or her salvation?Short answer: yes.Long answer: if someone is living in sin, they aren't saved, period.1 John 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.1 John 2:3And hereby we know that we know Him: if we keep His commandments.1 John 2:4He that saith, "I know Him," and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.1 John 2:9He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.1 John 3:6Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.1 John 38 He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 By this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother.1 John 3:1515 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer, and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.1 John 52 By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments.3 For this is the love of God: that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not grievous.1 John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.James 114 But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.James 121 Therefore lay apart all filthiness and the superfluity of wickedness, and receive with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 126 If any man among you seem to be religious and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.27 Pure religion, undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and hath not works? Can faith save him?James 217 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, "Thou hast faith, and I have works." Show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe -- and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see then how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also, was not Rahab the harlot justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.Hebrews 12:14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the LordThe question with Eternal Security (or, rather, Perseverance of the Saints) isn't whether someone living in sin is saved, it's whether they ever were saved. Does it matter?Another thing that leads me to question whether there's a practical difference: if you're really saved, and you really love God, wouldn't you want to abstain from all sin simply because of that love for God? If you need to have the threat of hell to keep you from sinning, aren't you still unsaved?For example, if a man sees someone else who is his enemy and is tempted to kill him, even if he doesn't do so it may still be sin. If he doesn't kill the man because there are police around or people who would tell the police, it's still sin. If he doesn't kill the man because the man is important to his social or political agenda or whatnot, it's still sin. If he doesn't kill the man because he believes he would get sent to hell and abstains solely because he doesn't want to go to hell, it's still sin and he's still going! Only if he abstains because God deserves his obediance and he wants to obey God, only then is he free from guilt.But to directly address the question of whether salvation can be lost, I believe this Scripture is very illuminating:James 519 Brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him, 20 let him know that he who converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.It's talking to the "Brethren," saying if any of "you" (meaning one of the Brethren) err from the truth (the error is later specified as sin, "the sinner"), and saying that if anyone "convert" the "sinner" from the error of his way, to "know" that he has saved a "soul" from "death" (obviously spiritual, not physical, death).Note that this is not equivalent to "every time you sin you lose your salvation," James 1:14-15 (quoted above) makes it clear (to me, at least) that there's a process involved before actual spiritual death occurs. 1 John 5:16-17 also speaks of some sins not being unto death (a complicated topic in and of itself):1 John 516 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and He shall give him life, for those who sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that he shall pray about it.17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.I also believe God generally grants us a "space of repentance" as He gave Jezebel:Revelation 221 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not.If you want a thorough treatment on the issue from the side that answers "yes", try www.evangelicaloutreach.org , Dan Corner (for better or worse) has made Conditional vs. Eternal Security his crusade.God's grace be with you all, in Christ Jesus our Lord,-Keith

It all depends on your definitions of'once''saved'and 'always' :-P Quite true, it entirely depends on what we mean by it. Even Finney, as I understand it, believed in Perseverance of the saints, but he probably meant something quite different by it than Spurgeon, Beza or Calvin (I don't know if Calvin ever used the phrase).I think I agree with Leonard Ravenhill: "There is no finality to the Christian life this side of eternity." I'm not sure what he meant by it, though :)

If God will save you today, knowing that you will be lost tomorrow, then he can't be God in my view.As it is written in (KJV) about Jacob & Esau below+++++++++++++++++ROMANS 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) ROMANS 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. ROMANS 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ROMANS 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. ROMANS 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. +++++++++++++++++It is by election that one is saved. And by Grace that one is able to live Godly. IT IS NOT OF WORKS, BUT BY GRACE. AND IF SAVED, YOU WILL LIVE GODLY. IF YOU CAN"T LIVE GODLY (YES WE MAKE MISTAKES) ...For the life that we live as Paul says is Christ (Holy Ghost) living in me.Also in ROMANS 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ROMANS 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. You can't talk about eternal security without eection, predestination, foreknowledge, grace, and the Power of God to change man ..Yes ONCE SAVED, IT is IMPOSSIBLE to be lost .. as it says in HEBREWS 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, HEBREWS 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

ROMANS 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) ROMANS 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. ROMANS 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.Ron (philologos) rightly pointed out in earlier posts that the prophet who Paul is quoting wrote this about Jacob and Esau LONG after their deaths.In fact, This passage is not talking about Jacob and Esau at all but about their descendants. And the prophecy was right; the descendants of Esau served the descendants of Jacob. Jacob became the heir of the promise which Esau despised.Election as some define it does not pertain to salvation but to service. That God had chosen Jacob did not mean that Esau would not be saved, but that Jacob and his descendants would be the people through whom God would reach out to the world.Yes ONCE SAVED, IT is IMPOSSIBLE to be lost .. as it says in HEBREWS 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, HEBREWS 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:6 if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (7) For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; (8)but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.Ok, now that I have opened the can of worms...as Ron would probably say...lolIn Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Thank you for quoting the rest of the Hebrews passage, I would have had to do so otherwise.Ok, now that I have opened the can of worms...as Ron would probably say...lolIt's a can of worms, indeed. But by God's grace we can discuss this in the right Spirit and not sin by pride or hatred or such.May God guide us all,-Keith

I don't believe a person who is once born from above can be "unborn" from above.That said I would say that if I asked a man "Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" and he says "yes", I take it that he is born from above; however if at a later time I ask him the same question and he says "no" then I believe he is not born from above.The question is, was he really born from above to begin with?And does it matter about the past? present? or future? :-o

All believer's have access to the promises of God in Jesus Christ. Not all believers obey the Spirit. Those who continually rebel against the Spirit that is in them will die the second death. "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13God will not allow unholy people to remain in His kingdom. Paul is very clear on this when he says, "if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Jesus, our high priest is the forerunner of our faith. He will lead you to the cross, and your flesh will be crucified. Then you will know the ressurected life.In ChristJeff

After reflecting on the wise consoul of Ron(s) a couple of things came up. One, it is a rather sinister question the way it is usually defined;'Once saved, always saved'It can imply either doubt, paranoia or false assurance, overconfidence.The question itself smacks of the devil.Secondly, there are really only two possible outcomes;Saved.Not saved.Certainly there is some built in safeguards against listening to the lies of the accuser as well as having a right understanding of the security of the believer. Most of which have been laid out already.I think it was already mentioned before but;Heb 12:6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives." Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten? Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons. If you haven't been taken out behind the barn you might have a pause of concern about your standing.I try to avoid it (the 'barn') as much as possible. Personally I still find it all so amazing that I could be saved from all that I have done, I have to take it on faith that the only way I can approach the Father is through Jesus alone. And though I believe that, to my dying day I will likely live with that undercurrent that not only do I not deserve it, can't do anything to merit it and am completely helpless otherwise, it is still possible that I could fall away, backslide, whatever you want to call it...I do get a bit concerned when I hear people boasting to loudly about their assurance, especially when it is couched in this "always" terminology, it smacks of self confidence, pride, almost a 'deserving' kind of attitude. I hope this makes some kind of sense. In a nut shell:To the cross I cling

Jeff, I tend to agree with you, though I wouldn't have a few years ago when i was a lukewarm Christian living the way i wanted. I was brought up to believe that as long as you said the "prayer", you were "in". While all along I was doing what i wanted and had not surrendered my whole life (and everything that consists of) to the Lord. I had not handed him the keys and gotten in the trunk. :)Now that i know what true surrender is- I know I was not really a christian at all- even if I might have been for a short while (at 12 when I first said the sinner's prayer).Two things stand out to me. The Pilgrims Progress. It's a journey. You are shown the path to follow and then it is up to you to stay on it. There will be obstacles and pitfalls and what are you going to do? Go back, take another side path? No, stay on the narrow path- no matter how hard it is.Remember Jesus said these words "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Mt.7:14If "few find it" then He is either lying or there are alot of Christians who are deceived. hmmmm.Also, I remind myself that we must work out our own salvation with 'fear and trembling'. There is no guarantee as long as I am living my life for myself- as I please. I am not in doubt or fear though, if I am living in obedience to Him.Yes, I fear the Lord! :) But He is so gracious and wonderful, why wouldn't I want to give my all and everything of myself to Him. He can handle "me" better than me.Watchman Nee had a great description in The Normal Christian Life. He said that salvation takes care of the "sin" we have done but the cross (taking up the cross daily) takes care of the "sinner". When we are saved we are forgiven of past sin but what about our old man who needs to be crucified? That has to be done daily too.satisfied in Him, Chanin

I don't believe a person who is once born from above can be "unborn" from above.It's not a matter of being born and then "unborn," I don't think we have any example of such a process in anything. It's a matter of being born and dying. I've quoted this Scripture before but I think it's important to understand conditional security (my variety of it, anyway) :James 114 But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.It's not that you're born and die, born and die, born and die as many times as you sin after conversion, but if you fall into sin and do not repent you will spiritually die. Otherwise James 5:19-20 makes no sense:James 519 Brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him, 20 let him know that he who converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Why would James write, directly addressing the "Brethren" that if any of "you" err from the truth (that error specified in v.20 as sin) and one conver him, let him "know" that he has "saved" a "soul" from "death," if one of the Brethren could not possibly experience spiritual death?The question is, was he really born from above to begin with?I think far more often than lost salvation what we see is false conversion, i.e. the people were never saved at all. Even if they were, it somewhat doesn't matter: on the Day of Judgment, your previous condition(s) don't matter, what matters is what state you were in when you died.

This is one of those things in the bible that seem to go both ways. Yes, God says he will never let go of us. Then you can look at the many scriptures already shared realize perseverance is an absolute necessity. The same goes for baptism. Over here, "Jesus is Lord." Then here, believe and be baptized. When we have multiple scriptures about the same thing, we have to accept them all. (As already said.) They don't contradict each other, they complement each other. Not everything can be said in every passage, so it only makes sense to piece it all together. Specifically with 'once saved, always saved,' I believe the scriptures given suffice, but also like the analogy of the gift. Salvation is a gift from God. A true gift we DO NOT deserve. Much like any other gift, we can tell everyone about our joy in receiving it, or we can through it away. God is not an 'Indian giver,' but we can rip, crumple and dispose of His gift.

Thank you brother and sisters for taking the time to tackle this truth. I really appreciate the scriptures and the opinions expressed. It is my understanding from scripture that salvation comes from faith alone. Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him form the dead, you will be saved." (NIV)However there is also genuine faith; faith that is in Christ alone based on scriptural truth thus allowing a transformation in your life, and a superficial faith; faith in Christ based on others, leading to no true relationship with God. It is also to my understanding that transformation is not “one time event”, but is a constant process in our walk towards being more like Christ. As it is written in Romans 3:10 “There is no one righteous, not even one.” This means that no one can earn right standing with God simply because we are sinners. To state that “if someone is living in sin, they aren’t saved, period.” Suggests that a lot of us are not saved after putting our faith in Jesus Christ because we still sin. I am assuming that “living in sin” means to constantly indulge in it despite the truth being made available. This constitutes that the believer has not a changed in heart (as he/she still loves their sins) and an unchanged heart would mean a superficial relationship with God. The results of a superficial relationship with God can be seen in Matthew 7:21.Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”. This verse simply states that people can “talk” the “talk” but don’t “walk” the “talk”. Our Lord wants a commitment based relationship with us to do right, not just to say “uh-huh at four or five places” (from Paris Reidhead). Therefore if we see our relationship with Christ as the factor that ensures salvation the question is what is a relationship with Christ? To simply put it it’s our acceptance of Him as Savior and our obedience to Him. Obedience as seen in Matthew 7:21 “he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”. How does this then answer the question of “once saved, always saved?”. If salvation is based upon genuine faith, leading to a relationship with God, and if a relationship means acceptance and obedience, how can one lose his or her salvation unless that person chooses deliberately despite the truth to sin? And if that person were to deliberately choose to sin because they still love their sins, doesn’t that suggest that their relationship with God is superficial? What about those who still sin despite having a relationship with God you might ask, then the question is how does their heart feel? Is there guilt? Is there grief? Is there a longing to get right with God for reasons that are not selfish e.g. salvation? Are they afraid that they’ll burn in hell?James 5:19 highlights a believer who has fallen into sin, one who on longer lives a life consistent with his or her beliefs. “My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover a multitude of sins.” James is talking about the importance of repentance, which is to experience sorrow and to seek to change wrong behavior. This illustrates the reaction of a person who has a true relationship with Christ. Repentance comes from a changed heart longing to get right with Him. That is why repentance is important. But has salvation been taken away from him or her? My answer is no. Because if salvation could be taken away by something you did or did not do, that would mean salvation is no longer based on faith, but on deeds. That would mean we are all trying to earn salvation. Salvation is, as our brother nekaras puts it, a gift from God by His grace. Indeed faith without deeds is dead. But deeds are a by-product of faith and not the prime product for salvation. My conclusion is that if you have a true relationship with our savior Jesus Christ, nothing and no one can snatch you out of the Lords hands. John 10:27-29 “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” Sorry this was so long, but thank you for taking the time to read this. Please correct me if I’m incorrect. I pray that what I’ve spoken is of truth and does not cause anyone to stumble. Daryl.

My conclusion is that if you have a true relationship with our savior Jesus Christ, nothing and no one can snatch you out of the Lords hands. Just a thought :-) Does God force us to stay in his hands can we choose to step out of his handsMy security is in the knowlage that I am transformed by the new nature living in me.This compells me to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling,as has already been said.sorry, just my 2 pennys worth