Calvinism vs Arminianism and Wise Advice from Tozer

Here is a testimony I read that is contained in the biography of A.W. Tozer pertaining to the current discussions.

I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, "Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?"

And I'll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, "My son, when you get to college you're going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I'll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you'll be way down the line and they'll still be where they started, because [b]greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions.[/b] Instead, learn to know God." (emphasis mine)

Cliff Westergren

To add a little history, the Moravians quarreled over the same issue. Their solution was to leave it in the Lord's hands and pray and they had a revival that launched the modern missionary movement and played a large part in why you and I are Christians today.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

Can we pin this post in the Scriptures & Doctrine forum? :)

Their solution was to leave it in the Lord's hands and pray

A fine solution! One, most certainly, birthed in the wisdom of the Lord. Notice that after leaving it in the Lord's hands, they [i]prayed[/i] and had a revival. If you follow suit, you too will pray and experience personal revival.

Imagine being liberated from the ancient bondage of Calvinism versus Arminianism! Being able to reconcile it [i]to yourself in the Lord[/i], and maintain a clear, pure conscience, free from the [b]drive to impose[/b] your theological leanings on another brother or sister? For many, this will be a ground-breaking step towards a much deeper, fruitful walk with God.

Brother Paul

For many, this will be a ground-breaking step towards a much deeper, fruitful walk with God.

I hope that [b]many[/b] will ask themselves, why and what brother Paul is saying here. It is crucial, if you are in bondage to doctrine.

I would like to say, in the nature of a forum, that I'm not wishing that a Calvinist ceases to be a Calvinist, and an Arminian ceases to be an Arminian. But rather, that they are [i]free[/i] to be Calvinist and Arminian [u]together in the Lord.[/u]

Phi 3:15 Let all who are spiritually mature agree on these things. If you disagree on some point, I believe God will make it plain to you. (NLT)

This is the attitude I've taken. If there is a Calvinist brother on SI, I expect to see Calvinist posts from him. Likewise, if there is an Arminian brother, then Arminian posts. And receive them in Christ freely and not to disputes (Rom. 14)

Because of this I've been enabled to receive so much blessing from the Lord. So to my Calvinist and Arminian brothers and sisters I say don't lay aside your doctrine, but don't pick them up to go to war. [b]Be a Calvinist and be an Arminian to the glory of the Lord and to the edification of His saints.[/b] And I will glory in the Lord with you.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

(edited for emphasis)

" God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, "0 Lord, Thou knowest." Those things belong to the deep and mysterious profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints."

A.W. Tozer

I liked the illustration of a man on a boat that he used to nullify the differences between calvinism and arminianism in his book 'Knowledge of the Holy.'

I don't know if people will be surprised (seeing that I post on the Calvinist vs. Armenian threads quite often defending Armenianism) but I do agree with what Tozer said very fervently.

iansmith

I liked the illustration of a man on a boat that he used to nullify the differences between calvinism and arminianism in his book 'Knowledge of the Holy.'

I’m not familiar with it. Could you post it?

Thanks brother

I will post this on the other forum as well.

I understand that some people do not like the discussions concerning Calvinism. I also understand that this discussion can easily become very unfruitful and distracting. I also understand that many great minds have wrestled with this topic for many centuries.

Having said all that, a discussion concerning Calvinism can be very fruitful and encouraging. I simply ask that if someone does not want do discuss Calvinism, don't discuss it. If someone doesn't want to see it, don't click on the link to the forum.

I know that this can get annoying when there are 5 or 6 different threads all on Calvinism and I do hope that changes. I will be sure not to start any new threads on the subject and only respond on ongoing threads.

I hope we all can agree that discussing Calvinism can quickly get out of hand, but I also hope that we would not turn our backs on discussing this doctrine.

Also, I wish everyone would see the dialog that me and my brother LoveHim are having. We are both gracious and loving and seeking to find the truth of the matter. I applaud LoveHim for his graciousness and I am enjoying the discussion of scriptural truth.

God Bless.

I understand that some people do not like the discussions concerning Calvinism. I also understand that this discussion can easily become very unfruitful and distracting. I also understand that many great minds have wrestled with this topic for many centuries.

Having said all that, a discussion concerning Calvinism can be very fruitful and encouraging. I simply ask that if someone does not want do discuss Calvinism, don't discuss it. If someone doesn't want to see it, don't click on the link to the forum.

That's what I was hoping to clear up in my second post. I certainly did not intend this thread to be one to end discussion on Calvinism and Arminianism. But that we would avoid demonizing each other (calling one system heretical as opposed to another). Carried on in the spirit of Christ, we can learn from each other and build each one up in the Lord.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

I certainly did not intend this thread to be one to end discussion on Calvinism and Arminianism. But that we would avoid demonizing each other (calling one system heretical as opposed to another).

I agree. Thank you brother.

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Dear saints i have also wrestled with this issue. i admit mine is not a great mind so all this required Grace to be Extended to me from God Himself. It is not of him that wills or runs, but it's about God who shows Mercy as Paul says in Romans 9. That passage of scripture is key in bringing across the Sovereignty of God in all things, especially the Election of the saints. After God had me wrestle through it He showed me that we have free will and yet it is somehow wrapped up in His Sovereign will and doesn't override it. Of course the 2 seem diametrically opposed but it seems to me Paul had a clear understanding of how these 2 things are 1 and work for the Eternal Purpose, the Glory of God Forever. AMEN. Dear saints when we wrestle with this issue with our minds, it seems that the 2 are incompatible but the fact that both concepts appear in scripture should tip us off that they [i][b]are[/b][/i]. See on the Calvanist side we have scripture to back up Predestination in the sense of God determining who He has saved (Election, which is God choosing out of His own Good pleasure independant of anything we do) and on the Arminian side we have scriptures which speak of things which we are to do with God to bring all this about. We can't ignore the fact that Jesus said that nobody can come to Him except God the Father draws him, nor can we ignore the fact that we are to choose whom we will serve...The Grace to choose clearly comes from God.

so what shall we say then? it is not a matter of one doctrine/view VS another but it is one doctrine/view [i][b]along with[/b][/i] the other which gives us a Complete View of what it is to be Saved. Christ was slain from the setting of the foundations of the world, this dear saints is the point of our Salvation for it is the point of Election. Yet somehow we are required to choose...To adopt one view vs the other is to have a warped view of God because the testimony of the scripture is that it's not Calvanism or Arminianism but Calvanism [i][b]AND[/b][/i]Arminianism. if we take our places in the Heavens with Christ as Paul said, we would see this issue from His Perspective which is this, both are employed to the end that God be Glorified Forever. AMEN.

i guess in these terms i'm not Calvanist or Aminianist but CalvArminianist...or ArminCalvanist... :-P In previous discussions i have been accused of being Calvanist...i have been led to bring up that side of things to balance out the Arminianist view in the hopes that we would all see that both are not only Valid, but are incomplete without the other.

did i mention that we have free will yet are bound by God's Sovereign will? ;-) that's the mystery of Predestination and (not vs) Free will. ain't God Good?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

bro Jeremy

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

That's what I was hoping to clear up in my second post. I certainly did not intend this thread to be one to end discussion on Calvinism and Arminianism. But that we would avoid demonizing each other (calling one system heretical as opposed to another). Carried on in the spirit of Christ, we can learn from each other and build each one up in the Lord.

AMEN!!! We certainly need to learn that because both concepts appear in the scripture, both are valid and compliment and complete one another and our view of God, rather than the 2 being at odds...When God showed me that this was the case, it was all gravy after that...biscuits and gravy... :-P

i guess as people we really don't like to change very much or admit that we are wrong...especially when it comes to God...then again that's a function of escaping admitting guilt in smaller matters. At the end of the day, when you think you have God figured out...you don't and you get hit with a curve ball like ROmans 9...

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

bro EJG

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Here is the big BUT, We all need to take more time as Christian believers to sense through the eyes of the holy ghost what really matters not only for this thread but others. To point out different belief systems such as arminians, pelagians. and calvinism can all become doctrine to many as it has already, allow urselves to see christ in it all. We believers seem to make many issues of doctrines....

oh indeed! i had used those definitions to try and put the whole thing into perspective. i don't know exactly what Calvin's 5 point theology/doctrine is nor do i know Arminius' stance thoroughly but by His Grace i strive to see what the word says and the 2 are valid and work toward the Eternal Purpose. Really if we take our places with Christ, we will see past such definitions/doctrinal stances and such and see as God sees.

Let His Love prevail indeed!AMEN.

i wonder why we oft reduce the scriptures to the doctrines/viewpoints of such and such and so and so. Perhaps there is something in us which wants to identify more with men that with Christ? Perhaps we find it more preferable to say we are of Calvin than to say we are our Lord's?often we don't simply say that this is what God says when it pertains to the word. Some things for us to consider maybe?

Even all the apostles were different, 12 different men with 12 different personalities and all of which saw Jesus from their individual perspectives. This doesn't take away from them or their perspective of the Christ, but it allows us to see that we are to convey messages as God deals with our particular personality or in the way he has taught us to convey.

God, being Infinite and indeed Infinity reveals Himself to us through one another. We are all different and HE uses that to bring forth different Attributes/Aspects of Himself. We see this in varying ministries of those written of in the word and in the ministries given to us even today.

Even Jesus said "No man can come to Him except the father draws him". I hope I have that scripture quoted correctly, Only, and Only the Holy Ghost can bid, call, lure, woo, or radically change a human being, lets just remember that it is love that is behind each one of these petty terms that I a human can use. The spirit must quicken no matter if it is by way of Calvin's theory, pelagians, or arminian.

indeed Christ said that in John 6 i think 3 times. ultimately it all rests on God and His Good Pleasure. Without Him moving to quicken us to something, we're finished.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.