Is there a certain point in someones walk where they give in to sin and therefore rendered dead spiritually as to separation from God. If so what is this point of separation? Is there a line that must be crossed? Is it only after repetitious iniquity or just one instance?
Are you speaking of someone who is born
again?? If you are truly born again,
you have a new nature, a spiritual
nature that is in conflict with sin.
Why would you want to cross the line??
You are only defeated when you give up
the fight!! Surrender to the Spirit,
never surrender to sin!
Is there a certain point in someones walk where they give in to sin and therefore rendered dead spiritually as to separation from God. If so what is this point of separation? Is there a line that must be crossed? Is it only after repetitious iniquity or just one instance?
The rule of thumb is, "if you're worried you've committed the [i]unpardonable sin
The Holy Ghost is a person of the Trinity. Like inviting a person into your home, you can invite the Holy Ghost into yourself.
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (REV 3:20)
If, after you invited the guest into your home, you decide you don't like him or her you can ask them to leave. Same thing happens with the Holy Ghost. He wants you to want Him, but if you ask Him to leave (say, He's inconveinient to you for a moment because you want to sin), he'll leave.
But He might not come back.
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the [i]blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.[i]whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Here Jesus says that all blasphemy and sin, no matter what one's said or done, will be forgiven. But once that man's repented, been forgiven, and received the Holy Ghost into his heart and mind - if he turns away from it willingly, he is doomed.
"FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY. NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: [I]BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
The author is speaking of the Holy Ghost, the conscience of God within man. God is not pleased with the man that draws away from, or denies, the Holy Spirit's promptings.
This warning's repeated here.
"See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For [i]if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=220]William P. Nicholson[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3034]The Sin That Has No Forgiveness by William P. Nicholson
I hope this helps.
sojourner7 asked
This question reminds me of an amusing but all too true description of 'conscience' failing to prevent a little boy from 'sin'.Why would you want to cross the line??
In the fictonal story, the boy was looking at apples growing on a tree on the other side of some iron railings. His 'conscience' was represented by a little man in a black bowler hat who was on the side of the railings with the apples, looking back at the little boy forbiddingly. The boy knew exactly what he was saying silently, but the apples were exceedingly inviting....... Eventually, after an inner struggle, the boy [i]claims
In a way, this describes what it is like for some people to resist sin.... The mental and physical effort required to enable them to stroll to the victory which is available in Christ, is beyond them at this point in time.... It won't always be, but, that's not what they are experiencing right now.... (At least, this is what comes to me as a way of re-interpreting perilous' question.)
So... I'd say from my own history of rank failures, that one has to have set one's heart in principle, to get victory eventually, and gradually to drag back the ground of one's life, stolen by the enemy in the past.
Of course, once a person comes to Christ, the enemy is going to add pressure, confusion and doubts, which force us to sift our hearts once more, with a slightly finer sieve.
I think this is what Matthew calls 'the refiner's fire' which burns up the chaff which blows off the wheat which is being winnowed.... This is what 'His fan is in His hand' is about... to separate the chaff from the wheat.
Maybe I should have been more clear, I'm truly sorry. I am new to this web sight and this way of discussion with other brothers. I hope that I have not in any way inconvienienced anyone or taken their time away from them.
Let me further explain. I recently picked up a book by Watchman Nee called the "Spiritual Man" and in the chapter of salvation under the regeneration section I came across this..."God has ordained He will deal with man through his spirit alone and that by man's spirit His counsels are to be realized. If such be the case, how necessary for the spirit of man to continue in constant and living union with God,without for a moment being affected into disobeying divine laws by following the feelings, desires, and ideals of the outward soul. Otherwise, death shall set in immediately; the spirit will be denied it's union with God's life....Whenever a person's inner man heeds the dictates of the outer man, he loses contact with God and is rendered dead spiritually."
Hence the question..... "Is there a certain point in someones walk where they give in to sin and therefore rendered dead spiritually as to separation from God. If so what is this point of separation? Is there a line that must be crossed? Is it only after repetitious iniquity or just one instance?"
When we are in union with the Lord, we are
one spirit. That's why it is necessary to
be filled with the Spirit, led by the Spirit,
and walk in the Spirit. We may grieve the
Spirit, we may quench the Spirit but the
life in the Spirit is eternal. He does not
forsake us or leave us. God will remain
faithful and true, even when we are not. :-D
perilous,
When a disciple asked Jesus how many time he ought to forgive a brother, He replied "seven times seventy".
If He advised us mere mortals to forgive a brother 490 times, I assume God forgives us even far more than that.
I suppose the "point of seperation" isn't a question qualitative vs. quantitative sins so much as reaching the place where one just doesn't care anymore.
Able came to the alter with downcast eyes, full of fear, sorrow and regret over the sins of his family and race. He and asked the Lord to accept the death of his favorite lamb in exchange of the death he and his race deserved. His sacrifice was acceptable to God.
Cain came dancing and singing with flowers in his hair and grain in his hands as a gift to God. His "gift" was despised.
Jacob was a scoundrel and he knew it - God could therefore work with him.
Esau thought he was A-okay - and that's why God couldn't do a thing with him.
God expects man to repent of all his sin. A Christian should fear and love God enough to avoid sin at all costs. If one happens to sin, I am not convinced that the relationship is estranged unless the man refuses to repent (We have an advocate with the father). We can boldly come to the throne of grace after we've sinned to receive the grace needed that will allow us to repent of all sin. However, I am convinced that one unrepented sin is enough to make oneself deserving of hell (and God will render each according to his deeds). It is a foolish thing to do when Christ has provided all that is needed for life and godliness.
The bible has many warnings for those who would continue in sin. Do not take them lightly. Jesus says cast out your eye to avoid sin. Many don't even fast, pray, or hardly lift a finger to avoid sin.
However, as long as God calls a man to Himself, it is not too late. But one should beware for there may come a time when He stops calling.
Corey said
Corey.... did you make this up....? It sure is an interesting slant on the scriptural account.... Could you explain further - what Abel had gotAble came to the alter with downcast eyes, full of fear, sorrow and regret over the sins of his family and race. He and asked the Lord to accept the death of his favorite lamb in exchange of the death he and his race deserved. His sacrifice was acceptable to God.Cain came dancing and singing with flowers in his hair and grain in his hands as a gift to God. His "gift" was despised.
Hi perilous,
Thank you for the background to your original question.
What HopePurifies said about repetitive sins, is true. One cannot carry on a lifestyle where the sins identified in Paul's lists of sins (any of his lists) are a regular feature, without putting oneself in danger of being cut off from God permanently, eventually.
Having said that, many individual Christians struggle with certain sins because they don't really see why what they are doing is incompatible with proclaiming Christ as their Saviour. They didn't ever understand that repentance is a turning away from [i]all[i]before[u]afterwards[u]we deceive ourselves, [b]and
For many years I didn't understand what John was getting at, but recently it dawned on me he is saying that [i][u]when[u]in
Some verses from Romans 8, with Tyndale's choice of verb, may enable you to settle on a form of words which clears this up Watchman Nee's thought for you. Whenever you're in doubt about what a Christian has written about what I call [i]spiritual dynamics
Therefore, here is Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those [i]who live
6 For to be carnally minded [i]is[i]is
7 Because the carnal mind [i]is[b]for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. ['in' here = [i]given to*
9 But you are not in* the flesh but in* the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ [i]is[i]is[i]is
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors -- not to the flesh, to live according to [or *] the flesh.
13 For if you live according to [or *] the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit [u]you put to death the deeds of the body
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
** In the New Testament there is a clear instruction for [u]us[i]do[i]help[i]whole work[u]co-operate[u]in our experience
So, to elaborate on the idea of what we can (and should do) to prevent ourselves continuing to sin, you will find Paul using words and phrases such as 'mortify' (or [i]put to death
John says 'do [u]not[u]practise
He also has a useful statement which a brother on SI illuminated for me thus:
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
where 'cannot sin' = [u]can[b]not sin
So, it seems clear that Paul is not saying a person immediately loses spiritual LIFE IN CHRIST forever, while they sort out their lives into a format which honours Him at every turn, but, he is not saying either, that this task can be delayed. We are to exhort each other [i]while it is today
When I mentioned in my earlier post about taking back the land from the enemy, I was thinking of the way Joshua lead the people [i]back
Joshua 1:3
"Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon [u]I have given you
In the above picture, can you see that the land is already ours, in the Spirit, because of what Christ accomplished through His death and resurrection, but we have to come after Him - with the same faith He had in laying down His life for us - laying down our old (flesh) life for Him - thus laying claim to [u]the practical outworking
OK. It's not comfortable! But we can comfort our minds with the thought that this struggle is not new. It's par for the course. None of us is suffering beyond what we are able, as we believe into these truths.
Sorry this was so long. There is more which could be said about Watchman Nee's way of explaining this, but let's start with understanding the weight of what's in scripture.
Hence the question..... "Is there a certain point in someones walk where they give in to sin and therefore rendered dead spiritually as to separation from God. If so what is this point of separation? Is there a line that must be crossed? Is it only after repetitious iniquity or just one instance?"
Hebrews 10 (NIV)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
In Christ - Jim
Amen, Dorcas! :-D
I second that! Thank God for imparting this wisdom, and how we should praise God for the guidance we can find in His Word.
dorcas said
Corey.... did you make this up....? It sure is an interesting slant on the scriptural account.... Could you explain further - what Abel had got right, and Cain had got wrong (apart from the emotions you attribute to them)?
Abel "got it right" by acknowledging the sinful nature of himself and his race. He understood that this corruption rendered Man unfit for anything but death. Knowing that death was what he and his race deserved, yet still desiring to live, he brought his most beloved lamb before the alter - and prayed God would accept the lamb's death instead of the death of his whole race.
Cain didn't bring a sacrifice to the alter; he brought a gift. Now, the reason I equate Cain with a dancing hippy is because, just as they believed in "free love" (or sex without cost), he believed in sin without sacrifice. That's why God said "No" to his armful of flowers and grains.
A sacrifice is something that costs you greatly, financially, socially, materially, emotionally, and sometimes physically.
A gift is a trifle that costs relatively little and is sent to an equal.
Consider the old widow's sacrifice. She donated her last two pennies to the temple.
Then consider the rich man's gift of, say, ten thousand gold coins. If he tithed 10%, that means he's proabably made 100,000 gold coins that year.
Who gave more?
Hi Corey,
Thanks for your reply. I have to admit your colourful description forced me to think about what I [i]do
But, I take the point that man and animals were still friends (up until the Flood)... but, you've attributed to Abel a [i]sentimentality
Therefore, while I believe we can say that God took the first animals' lives - a sacrifice for sin - to make coverings for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden so that He could hide their shame in His sight, there is nothing to imply in scripture, that [i]Abel's
The law was not to be given for a very long time yet...
Also, there is a big difference between the work of raising crops and that of a shepherd. They are both 'work', sure, but finding food from the ground was harder than leading a flock.
I puzzled for a long time over God's rejection of Cain's offering, until I remembered that God had cursed the ground for Adam's sake (instead of Adam), and here was Cain 'offering' to God the fruit of this cursed entity. It seems hardly surprising God was unimpressed. In fact, rather than Cain being flippant about it all, perhaps he was attempting to remind God of all the hard work he had done, instead of being overwhelmingly grateful to be alive. Full stop!
God knows the intents of our hearts and is forgiving of true ignorance. But.... ah.... I didn't mean to set up a digression.
This is a good question, for I have pondered this question many times and sometimes wondered if I have crossed that line. I am sure that I speak for a great number of believers that have felt the same way at one point in their lives.Is there a certain point in someones walk where they give in to sin and therefore rendered dead spiritually as to separation from God
Yes, we know that God is compassionate not willing that any should perish and certainly we know that His mercies are new every morning. Even though we know that He is a God that forgives sin, we on the other hand have a hard time forgiving ourselves.
There are moments sometimes extended periods of time where we do not feel God or hear his voice. We sense no inspiration from the holy Book, we are agitated and quick to judge. And in these moments we begin to wonder if we've gone past that line. Perhaps we've angered God so much that He is tired of us not bearing fruit therefore has cast us off.
In the midst of all this swirling confusion we stop and hear the word of God speaking saying a comforting word to our hearts, "I will never leave you nor forsake you". "Though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me". It's in these moments is when we look up and have courage that even though I am not free from this valley of whatever I am in, however, I know that He is with me and I have not crossed the line.
I don't believe one soul here is bearing fruit. The fruit that God is looking for has power not what the dictionary tells us. Jesus would have compassion on the people and thru that compassion many were healed. A woman just touched the hem of His garment and she was made whole. The fruit of the Spirit is birthed thru these frustrating hard times when we reckon ourselves to be dead with Christ. Reckoning ourselves to be dead is not easy, it's a hard road to walk on because everything that you have ever held dear is now gone. What you thought you were most strong in, is now melted into weakness.
Thank you for allowing me to answer your question in my honest opinion.
perilous wrote:
Maybe I should have been more clear, I'm truly sorry. I am new to this web sight and this way of discussion with other brothers. I hope that I have not in any way inconvienienced anyone or taken their time away from them.Let me further explain. I recently picked up a book by Watchman Nee called the "Spiritual Man" and in the chapter of salvation under the regeneration section I came across this..."God has ordained He will deal with man through his spirit alone and that by man's spirit His counsels are to be realized. If such be the case, how necessary for the spirit of man to continue in constant and living union with God,without for a moment being affected into disobeying divine laws by following the feelings, desires, and ideals of the outward soul. Otherwise, death shall set in immediately; the spirit will be denied it's union with God's life....Whenever a person's inner man heeds the dictates of the outer man, he loses contact with God and is rendered dead spiritually."
Hence the question..... "Is there a certain point in someones walk where they give in to sin and therefore rendered dead spiritually as to separation from God. If so what is this point of separation? Is there a line that must be crossed? Is it only after repetitious iniquity or just one instance?"
One thing is to reconsile to yourself is that if you or someone is concerned about that very thing; should consider himself not seperated for the Lord. The very reason to think and have a concern is that you haven't crossed the line.
Plus we must remember we can not go by feeling all the time, if I go by that I will be like a man tossed to and fro. My feelings have nothing to do with my assurance or insecurites. A man doesn't continue in sin if he has the seed of the Holy Spirit. You can't sin and not be convict or chasten by the Holy Spirit.
We also must be carefull in making this about us. Its about the Christ. We can be analytical to the point we have to figure out the method of God. That would give us the claim to our faith and that we some how had something to do with it; we had control!!
Jesus says, I haven't lost one. I keep them in the palm of my hand. No one can snatch them out. (verbatim) You can't give back or lose something you had no possible way to earn.
Aren't we dead already to sin, made alive to Christ? Theirs grace brother. God is longsuffering, His desire is for men to come to the knowledge of His son. Of course God can do whatever HE wants, he may break about some type of severe chasitment into someones life, only because he does this to His children.
My advice is to be careful who you may read or listen too, some men I don't agree with and many I do, not say that Watchman Nee is wrong, i feel that somethings need to be taken in smaller bites, desire milk, not meat. Some of these guys are pretty zealous and propher like and if you are feeling week and insecure they can cause you to stumble and feel worse. Know this, that we need no man to teach us, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in truth. I am not saying though, that God won't use some men to speak bodly in someone face, He will.
You haven't crossed line to me, only because your concerned about it, if you weren't your heart would be harden and you wouldn't care because you would rather have darkness than the light.
Hope this all mad sense, my mind and typing don't always line up with how I want to say it.
In CHrist
Reformer
Compliments said
Thank you for putting this into words so well. I know what you mean. It is the Lord who comes to us in those moments and the effect is to quicken the spirit into one of hopefulness and expectation of His help.It's in these moments is when we look up and have courage that even though I am not free from this valley of whatever I am in, however, I know that He is with me and I have not crossed the line.
But.... is this what you meant....? If so, could you explain it more, please?I don't believe one soul here is bearing fruit.
When we rely on our fleshly abilities to become righteous we become self reliant in our actions to bring about the holiness of God. We replace our reliance on victory by the presence and power of God through the cross to a reliance on self obtained victory by the righteousness of “self sanctification“. We fail in every way to make Christ Lord and savior and instead succumb to the deception of a false righteousness within ourselves. Col 2:19
there is a grace that comes with every truth
Complete, absolute, and utter dependence upon the revelations of God to produce the righteousness of the Son within us. This is the will of God.
"God the Father through God the Holy Spirit revealing God the Son through a flesh vessel called the church."
perilous said
Yes, and also through the individual flesh vessel."God the Father through God the Holy Spirit revealing God the Son through a flesh vessel called the church."
GW North put it this way:
The Holy Spirit has come [through new birth] to make the life of Jesus Christ real in your flesh.
Complete, absolute, and utter dependence upon the revelations of God to produce the righteousness of the Son within us. This is the will of God.
1 Corinthians 1
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye [u]in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us[b]righteousness
31 That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Amen.
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