Is the canon of scripture closed??

sermonindex Aug 3, 2007

I feel that there is no need for new "revelation" of scripture. What I mean is that the Gods word has been written and compiled. And we no longer need some of the spiritual gifts, that were more prevelant during the NT. I think they ceased, only due to having to complete revelation of scripture now.

Example the gift of tongues, healings, prophecy. I'm not talking about prophecy in the sense of declaring and proclaiming Gods truth, but the mystical side, fortelling future events.

Of course this is not a major doctrinal issue, its absolutely minor. But I think it is important only due to the fact, that it is misleading the innocent in faith and causing stumbling blocks for others. I don't feel that what some churches are doing, as far sensationalism, euphoria, and emotional experiences could be contrued as demonic. I don't think the kind of caos that we see on certain christian TV stations or certain churches are what the NT was referring too.

Briefly, when I first became a believer, never growing up in a church, I was intruduced to the charismatic way. I eventually spoke in tongues, slaying the spirit, everything was demonic,like headaches and car troubles! Silly I know. But that is what the taught. I always questioned and considered if this was fake or real. I stuggle with GOd over it, because I saw my inconsistency and pride. I sought after experience and others felt less because God must not love them enough to have certain gifts. it was troubling me and felt the Lord dealing with me and blocking my travels to certain so-called "revivals". God eventually pulled me out and changed my heart, my desire was to know HIS word and seek not signs and wonders. I need stability and trust in HIS word only. Anyways thats a quick synopsis. Love to hear what others think?

BLessing
REformer :-)

R

running2win Aug 3, 2007

Blessings to you too reformer!
I would say first of all that you are right in concluding that what you see in the charismatic churches is fake ~~[i]~~for the most part[/i]. I can't really generalize cause I don't have all understanding and knowledge. However, if you study revival history you will find that many of the same NT manifestations were very prevalent in alot of revivals and also in the lives of men like John Wesley, Keith Daniel, Duncan Campbell, etc. I think where the charismatic churches have gone wrong (again, I'm not speaking all inclusively but I can speak with somewhat of an overview having also come out of the charismatic movement)
is that they focus on the gifts and the baptism of the Holy Ghost as an end rather than tools and steps to glorify God as much as possible. With them (the charismatics) it's kind of like if you've got tongues then you've got the full christian experience, whereas in the NT the power of the Holy Ghost was so that the disciples might be fully equipped to serve God. William Booth said his greatest fear for the 20th century was christianity without the Holy Ghost which is pretty much exactly where western christianity has landed. We don't see these things in their reality because very, very few have been filled with the Holy Ghost as biblically demonstrated. (Again, I'm referencing western christianity. You'll find the story very different in Chinese christianity. The power of God is very clearly abiding on the chinese christians.) I've heard many, many accounts of ~~[i]~~real[/i] healings, ~~[i]~~real[/i] prophecies, stories of someone preaching in one language and someone else hearing it in a different language and so forth.

Interesting to note though that when those things occure they weren't even thought about. The people were seeking ~~[i]~~God[/i] for an out-pouring of the Holy Ghost and when the Holy Ghost was poured out along came manifestations with Him. And the sole purpose of them was to glorify God and bring people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Not so that people might see or experience something supernatural like you see in the charismatic movement. Jesus said a evil and perverse generation seeks after a sign. I expect to see revival in my day and I also expect to see some manifestations of God's power in it but I only seek God Himself, not signs and wonders. I can go to the devil if all I want is signs and wonders.

K

KingJimmy Aug 3, 2007

In regard to the question, is the canon of Scripture closed, my answer is emphatically, yes.

However, I believe there to be three types of canon altogether, two of which always remain open. The first level of canon, being that of Holy Scripture, which is the foundation and acid test of everything we believe or do, is closed. The faith has once and for all been handed down to the saints.

But as to the other two levels of canon, that I believe remain forever open until the Lord comes, have to do with regional and individual canons. These other two levels of canon must be in full agreement with that of Holy Scripture, and in no way may contradict anything found in them.

By a "regional canon," I have in my mind the idea that God will be giving active direction through the Word and the Spirit as to the direction each local assembly of believers is to work towards in regard to ministry, and how to deal with various issues that arise as the occasion warrants. I believe we can see such with the prophet Agabus in Acts 11:28-29. The prophet Agabus seemed to be indicating in a message that he was giving that a famine was about to come upon their land, and as a result of this prophetic word going forth, the local church took some practical steps for preparation in anticipation of this event.

Then there is the idea of a "personal canon." That is, things God has revealed to you through either the inner witness of the Holy Spirit of a personal prophecy given by another believer. Like the "regional canon," these things too are subject to everything found in the canon of Scripture, and in no way may contradict anything found in them. An example of this can be found in 1 Tim 1:18, where the apostle Paul urges Timothy to fight the good fight of faith according to a personal words of prophecy that were made concerning him.

And like the prophecies that compose the Scriptures, there may be forth-telling and for-telling elements in any of these words. Indeed, most for-telling types of prophecies in the Scripture usually are born out of a message that is forth-told.

We must be careful in regard to these things. There are some people who abuse these things. There is everything from the extreme cessationist camp to the hyper charismatics... both who get it wrong. What we need is sound balance that embraces the good and rejects the evil. For as Peter noted in Acts 2, quoting Joel 2:28-32, the present dispensation we are in is the age of the Spirit. Therefore we should see mighty demonstrations of the Spirit of God. For as Paul said, he didn't preach the gospel in word only, but in the full power of the Spirit, with signs and wonders accompanying. For the kingdom of God isn't merely in words, but it is in power.

I'd have more I'd like to say, but time does not afford much such opportunity.

R

running2win Aug 3, 2007

Very, very well said jimmy.

sermonindex Aug 3, 2007

KingJimmy wrote:
In regard to the question, is the canon of Scripture closed, my answer is emphatically, yes.
However, I believe there to be three types of canon altogether, two of which always remain open. The first level of canon, being that of Holy Scripture, which is the foundation and acid test of everything we believe or do, is closed. The faith has once and for all been handed down to the saints.
But as to the other two levels of canon, that I believe remain forever open until the Lord comes, have to do with regional and individual canons. These other two levels of canon must be in full agreement with that of Holy Scripture, and in no way may contradict anything found in them.
By a "regional canon," I have in my mind the idea that God will be giving active direction through the Word and the Spirit as to the direction each local assembly of believers is to work towards in regard to ministry, and how to deal with various issues that arise as the occasion warrants. I believe we can see such with the prophet Agabus in Acts 11:28-29. The prophet Agabus seemed to be indicating in a message that he was giving that a famine was about to come upon their land, and as a result of this prophetic word going forth, the local church took some practical steps for preparation in anticipation of this event.
Then there is the idea of a "personal canon." That is, things God has revealed to you through either the inner witness of the Holy Spirit of a personal prophecy given by another believer. Like the "regional canon," these things too are subject to everything found in the canon of Scripture, and in no way may contradict anything found in them. An example of this can be found in 1 Tim 1:18, where the apostle Paul urges Timothy to fight the good fight of faith according to a personal words of prophecy that were made concerning him.
And like the prophecies that compose the Scriptures, there may be forth-telling and for-telling elements in any of these words. Indeed, most for-telling types of prophecies in the Scripture usually are born out of a message that is forth-told.
We must be careful in regard to these things. There are some people who abuse these things. There is everything from the extreme cessationist camp to the hyper charismatics... both who get it wrong. What we need is sound balance that embraces the good and rejects the evil. For as Peter noted in Acts 2, quoting Joel 2:28-32, the present dispensation we are in is the age of the Spirit. Therefore we should see mighty demonstrations of the Spirit of God. For as Paul said, he didn't preach the gospel in word only, but in the full power of the Spirit, with signs and wonders accompanying. For the kingdom of God isn't merely in words, but it is in power.
I'd have more I'd like to say, but time does not afford much such opportunity.

That's a great summary, thank you. I like the way you've broken this down into categories - never thought of it in quite that way.

Although I think that the question of modern day prophecy is a separate issue from the question of whether the canon is closed.

Blessings

Jeannette

sermonindex Aug 4, 2007

Rev 22:19-20
19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

HIS WORD reveals our savour and who HE is and what he has done for us. He is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. Faith comes by hearing HIS WORD.
HIS WORD is complete. HIS WORD is enough. HIS WORD is manna to HIS SPIRIT within us.

Most of us are already educated far past our obedience in HIS WORD to have need of any special revelation.

sermonindex Aug 4, 2007

I said:
I think that the question of modern day prophecy is a separate issue from the question of whether the canon is closed.

Many seem to believe that the closure of the canon of Scripture is the same as cessationism.

Never having embraced either the cessationist position or extreme "Charismania", I find that a bit hard to understand, because true prophecy is, as King Jimmy said, is normally "forthtelling", or a practical local foretelling, as Agabus' prophecy of famine. And it is ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~always[/b][/i] in line with Scripture.

How can anyone then think that such prophecy adds to the Canon itself? It neither adds nor takes away from it, merely applies scriptural principles to a present day situation and need.

But what of the actual title question of the thread? I was always taught that the canon of Scripture is closed, that God has nothing more to say, as far as the written Word is concerned.

But how do we know that for certain? What criteria are used to decide if Scripture is complete? This is probably the first time I've actually have courage to question it, and wonder why!

I believe it is complete, (I think :-? ), but ~~[i][u]~~why[/u][/i] do I believe it? Is it only because I've always been told it as fact, and it's considered heresy in Evangelical circles to question it??

The ban in Revelation on those who add or take away from the prophecy seems to refer only to Revelation itself, so isn't proof, and various books have been taken from and added to the Canon before the present form was agreed on by the majjority.

A question that comes from this is: Are there also different ~~[i]~~levels[/i] of Divine inspiration in the different books of Scripture? Is Isaiah as inspired as Ecclesiastes? Are Kings and Chronicles as much from the Holy Spirit as the Psalms? What are the criteria or categories by which we may judge them?

I have some thoughts on this, but not too many, as its something I haven't looked at seriously before. It is important, I think, to understand why we believe as we believe, and questions like these are an important part of it. Simply sticking to a ridgid understanding as we have been taught, and to shout "heresy!" at anything different isn't enough any more. We need to know the reasons - even for the basic tenets of our faith. To know intellectually, but more important to know ~~[i]~~spiritually[/i].

That way we shall not fall nor be deeply deceived because we know HIM - the living Word - as well as the "bare bones" of the written Word.

As it says in Ephesians 3:
[color=000066]14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, ~~[b]~~to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man[/b], 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 ~~[b]~~may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge[/b]; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.[/color]

This speaks of the spiritual knowing.

in Him

Jeannette

sermonindex Aug 4, 2007

How can anyone then think that such prophecy adds to the Canon itself? It neither adds nor takes away from it, merely applies scriptural principles to a present day situation and need.

WHat I am saying that some charismatics, especially on TV, and some charismatic churches are bringing new light, new inspiration, one well know televangelist said that jesus was going to appear on his prodcast on such day and time. Well we know that is not scriptural. They add things that are completely contrary to what scripture and say thus says the Lord!

But how do we know that for certain? What criteria are used to decide if Scripture is complete? This is probably the first time I've actually have courage to question it, and wonder why!

I think moe_mac summend it up perfectly.

I believe it is complete, (I think ), but why do I believe it? Is it only because I've always been told it as fact, and it's considered heresy in Evangelical circles to question it??

great thought littlegift! Definetly that one is worth starting a new thread.

Reformer

sermonindex Aug 4, 2007

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

in closing
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18037&forum=36&0

sermonindex Aug 4, 2007

reformer wrote:
How can anyone then think that such prophecy adds to the Canon itself? It neither adds nor takes away from it, merely applies scriptural principles to a present day situation and need.
WHat I am saying that some charismatics, especially on TV, and some charismatic churches are bringing new light, new inspiration, one well know televangelist said that jesus was going to appear on his prodcast on such day and time. Well we know that is not scriptural. They add things that are completely contrary to what scripture and say thus says the Lord!

Hi again

"one well known televangelist said that jesus was going to appear on his prodcast on such day and time" That's horrendous! As you say, totally unscriptural. I could give one or two guesses re who the "well known televangelist" is, but maybe best not name names, unless yyou think that a specific warning is in order?

I understood that was what you were thinking of when you posted your comment; but just wanted to affirm that there is also such a thing as true prophecy - even in these days.

Remember Elijah? How many prophets of Baal were there? And Elijah was only one. There are false prophets aplenty, and they shout louder than the true prophet, but that doesn't mean that true prophets don't exist!

The spirit and teachings of Jezebel are rampant, and growing more so, yet the Lord has His "7,000 in Israel" still

But how do we know that for certain? What criteria are used to decide if Scripture is complete? This is probably the first time I've actually have courage to question it, and wonder why!

I think moe_mac summend it up perfectly.

I believe it is complete, (I think ), but why do I believe it? Is it only because I've always been told it as fact, and it's considered heresy in Evangelical circles to question it??

great thought littlegift! Definetly that one is worth starting a new threadI thought that was the subject of ~~[i]~~this[/i] thread! :-?

Blessings

Jeannette

sermonindex Aug 4, 2007

someone wrote:

Hi again
"one well known televangelist said that jesus was going to appear on his prodcast on such day and time" That's horrendous! As you say, totally unscriptural. I could give one or two guesses re who the "well known televangelist" is, but maybe best not name names, unless yyou think that a specific warning is in order?
I understood that was what you were thinking of when you posted your comment; but just wanted to affirm that there is also such a thing as true prophecy - even in these days.
Remember Elijah? How many prophets of Baal were there? And Elijah was only one. There are false prophets aplenty, and they shout louder than the true prophet, but that doesn't mean that true prophets don't exist!
The spirit and teachings of Jezebel are rampant, and growing more so, yet the Lord has His "7,000 in Israel" still

response:Matt 24:36-37
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

Matt 24:11-15

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
KJV

A prophet is (someone)- edit that speaks God's Word!!!!!

I

IRONMAN Aug 5, 2007

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

indeed the written canon os scripture is closed and completed. However dear saints we need to reckon with something of such gravity that if we fail, we will miss the Fullness of the Canon. The Canon is of God, the Inspired, Inerrant word of God, and because it is of God it is Infinite, Inexaustible, deeper than depth just like He is. The context of the Canon is Eternal just as God is Eternal. This is why the word doesn't get old nor does fail to be relevant in any place or time or situation. Each verse is of Infinite depth and can mean one of many things based on context.Scripture is not set in stone in that a verse means one thing and one thing only always, but even if it does mean one thing, that thing itself is of Infinite depth and Gravity. of late i have been finding that the Canon is Alive in a sense of seemingly adapting to any given situation. i can see things in the word now that i never saw before. Of course this is a Grace extended to me from God Himself. i would say that it we thought we didn't need Special Revelation from God on the word, then we have fully understood it through and through. Then we have sucked all the marrow out of it. We remain in need of Special Revelation from Him always or else we don't grasp the Gravity of Scripture in the Eternal sense and we are left with only a superficial understanding of it. i used to think i knew the word...then it was brought to my attention by Paul that if a man thinks he knows something, he knows nothing as he ought to know...saints the word has layers. Paul brings out things which were written in O.T. scripture and expounds on them in ways which are beyond what anyone could have perceived...then he applied them...Paul was shown much and i think i am beginning to understand what that felt like. When Paul read the prophets, he saw beyond the surface texts and was shown by God something of the Eternal Context of these writings. Paul talks about Christ returning to gather us to Himself and yet says we are in Heavenly Places with Christ already...to take out places in Heaven now would give us the proper Perspective of the Canon, God's. From right there next to Him. The view from up here is something y'all must check out if you haven't already...

Someone said there is no need for mystical revelation from God...what Revelation from God isn't Mystical? Paul was a Mystic, what other knd of man would get to know what he knew but a Mystic, a Godly one, not one of those other kinds of mystics that are into the occult and stuff. Tozer was a Mystic, all these men who served God and were written of in the Canon were Mystics, the knew God in ways most men didn't. Dear saints i hope we don't think we have the word on lock and can coast along. There is still need for the gifts, if they were needed at the beginning, how much more necessary will they be now that we are at the end? Tongues, healings, miracles etc will accompany those who believe the word says, so if we believe in this day and age, those things will yet follow us. if we believe they are not needed, the only reason i can see for such is if we no longer believe!God forbid that! i suppose part of the idea of cessationalism is a fear of going out of one's comfort zone into the unknown. Sure there are some excesses and counterfeits which we must be wary of, but God still gives Spiritual Gifts, if there is a counterfeit, it is because the real deal is out there. There is also a misunderstanding of the thing which is Perfect which will render the gifts and such unnecessary. this has widely been believed to be the coming of the Canon, but it isn't. The Perfection which will render the gifts unnecessary is when we as a Body step into the Fullness of the Stature of Christ. When that happens, there will be no more sin, no more sickness (no need for healing), no more unbelief (no need for signs)...i can't even begin to try and fathom what that is...We will walk in Perfect Love and Obedience to Him as One, Every Believer...i am at a loss over this...

bro KingJimmy said that we remain in need for Prophecy be it personal, forthtelling what is to come etc and we do. There is an interesting thing which happens in Prophecy as it pertains to the future, things get clearer closer to the event. Daniel was given a book and he had to seal it for us in this time of the end...i wonder what all is in that book...the Revelation has been making more and more sense the closer we get to the Coming.

there is a Jewish tradition which says that each verse in scripture can be interpreted at lest 360 different ways...and we oft get bent out of shape when there are only 2 views being discussed and we can't fathom the idea that maybe both are valid...this would mean we may have to admit we don't know everything :-P a classic example of 2 ideas which are argued about as though they are mutually exclusive are predestination and free will. The 2 are not mutually exclusive, both are supported by scripture but one without the other leaves one with a warped view of God, the 2 together give us the True Perspective as it pertains to our Salvation because the 2 are 1 that men may be saved and thus God be Glorified. The word says we are called from before the setting of the foundations of the earth...and it also says we are to choose Christ...and it says we can't choose Him unless He chooses us first and God draw us to Christ. it's not predestination vs free will but predestination AND free will.

well, i know one of the meanings of some of these verses...at leat 359 to go... 8-) :smart: :knockedout: *someone help me reboot my brain, i think i pulled something or burnt a a fuse*

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sermonindex Aug 5, 2007

AMEN, Bro Ironman!

Thank you for that wise word.

I especially liked, "there is a Jewish tradition which says that each verse in scripture can be interpreted at lest 360 different ways"

Why not 365, one for each day of the year? :-;

Jeannette

sermonindex Aug 5, 2007

You are right Ironman, hopefully no one on SI or anywhere else thinks they have understood all that is written in God's Word. That's why I said in an ealier post in view of that earlier post and your post here, why would anyone need any special revelation that is not already contained in His written Word. Truth can usually be explained in few words. But there are many truths in His Word.

I

IRONMAN Aug 6, 2007

sis Jeannette
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

indeed our Lord has been most Gracious to me in what He has been showing me of late. Grace has been extended to me in fastings (which i didn't do before) and in revelation of Himself and His word to me. Truly there is depth beyond depth in the riches of God's Wisdom and Knowledge like Paul said, who indeed has been His Counselor?

if the minimum number of interpretations is 360 which is about 1 a day and the maximum is infinity, i'm glad we have eternity to delve into these mysteries...Heaven is not a boring place and i feel a preview of that is poring over the word, you can't be bored doing that, well unless you're messing up somewhere...i just had the foolish notion of putting that to the test. not sure where to begin but i'm sure our Lord will give guidance.

to Infinity and beyond...

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

I

IRONMAN Aug 6, 2007

BRO Moe

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

You are right Ironman, hopefully no one on SI or anywhere else thinks they have understood all that is written in God's Word. That's why I said in an ealier post in view of that earlier post and your post here, why would anyone need any special revelation that is not already contained in His written Word. Truth can usually be explained in few words. But there are many truths in His Word.

oh now i see what you're saying! We were saying the same thing!Indeed the Wisdom of God which is contained in the word is Manifold but the Truths themselves are interlinked in such a way that they support one another. Some things which seem far off really do have scriptural basis if we press into God enough and have Him reveal things to us. i guess i always considered Revelation of anything in His word to be something Special, although a superficial understanding of it i think profits us in a limited way.

The Truths can oft be explained simply and at the same time they are interlinked so intimately it's amazing. i tell you saints the realiaztion of this thing has revolutionized the way i look at scripture and things in general. i guess i'm mystic in that sense. Whatever you call it, God has opened up the canon in a way i could never have except His Grace was extended to me.

May He extend even more Grace to you my brethren that His Name may be futher Glorified.AMEN.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

S

Search_Me Aug 7, 2007

I am thankful for the Word of God that has caused me to seek His face and walk in His Glorious Light! Amen!