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M
murdog Aug 6, 2007

Saints,

I just wanted to tell you about what is happening in my life and I encourage your thoughts and opinions in regards to my situation.

I came to know the Lord around five years ago. I came out of a criminal past involving drugs, violence and organized crime. I was going through alot and I started seeing a woman who was divorced. I also had a child from another woman who I was the sole caregiver to. The divorced woman I was seeing at the time became pregnant. I thought the right thing to do was to marry her because she was pregnant even though she was divorced. Everytime I opened the bible I would open to the scripture that said "anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery". It troubled me greatly. But like a fool I chose my own path and went ahead and married her. I wanted to have a family for the unborn baby and for my son whom I had from a previous relationship. We got married in February 2004. It was a very tumultuous relationship. We had many problems, but managed to stay together until February of this year. We had one more child together in that time. She left and within a couple of weeks, she had started seeing someone else.

At first I was praying that we would be reconciled even though she was with someone else. I started attending a mennonite church and I was telling the pastor about my situation and I was seeking direction from him. He told me not to pray for reconciliation with her because it was a sinful relationship because she was a divorced woman and that caused me to commit adultery. He also told me not to pursue another relationship because I will soon be a divorced man and I am not free to remarry.

This was difficult to hear because I always wanted to have a Godly wife, but I believe what he told me was the truth.

Murray

C
crsschk Aug 6, 2007

Interesting the timing of these things ...

He told me not to pray for reconciliation

Find that quite hard to swallow.

Brother I do not know there is an easy answer here ...

"anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery"

That is not quite accurate. For what it's worth, you may find something in this thread as well;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16858&forum=36&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0]The husband of one wife[/url]

A good link in there from John Piper as well.

Came across something from Richard Baxter today that might also be of some help, it will take a bit to type out but will reply back here with it.

sermonindex Aug 6, 2007

murdog, may the Holy Spirit continue to lead you in all truth and may the Lord bless you in following His word.

Let anyone you want tell you that its ok to remarry or stay married in an adulterous relationship, but you continue to stand on the word of God. I am overjoyed to hear that you received Godly and scripturally sound council on the matter. No practicing adulterer will inherit eternal life (regardless of what the pastor of some big steeple house tells them)

you should run and leap for joy that God placed His council in your path to keep you from the strong delusion that this generation is under.

In Christ - Jim

S
sojourner7 Aug 6, 2007

Murray, you said you have always wanted a
godly wife. This woman you got involved
with evidently was not a godly woman.
You know in your heart that if God is not
the center in a marriage relationship it
won't work. Better that you were not
reconciled with her.

P
PreachParsly Aug 6, 2007

stay married in an adulterous relationship

I don't plan on getting very involved in this discussion but...

This type of language has honestly never made sense to me. How can you be married and the relationship supposedly isn't really a marriage? Is it a marriage or not?

sermonindex Aug 6, 2007

hey preach when I use that language I am refering to being married in societies view, while being an adulterer in Gods view.

be blessed brother - Jim

sermonindex Aug 6, 2007

BTW - Jesus used the same terminology.

Matthew 19:9
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

C
crsschk Aug 6, 2007

jimdied2sin

Are you married?

sermonindex Aug 6, 2007

yes Mike, I am... (dreading next question :o)

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Aug 6, 2007

Hi Murdog...

I won't pretend to know the answer to your plight, but I suggest that no one else has a definitive answer either. My newlywed wife and I were discussing this issue the other day. We both disagreed on the rationale behind the Scripture pertaining to divorce and remarriage.

My sister and her husband endured a terrible relationship for about 10 years. They started out in Church, but they strayed following the loss of their first child. My sister had been given a "word from the Lord" by her pastor that the baby would live. A couple of days later, the baby (Christian) died. This devastated my sister. This lack of wisdom on behalf of a well-meaning but misguided pastor literally drove her away from the Lord.

A few years later, my sister was caught into the allure of the internet. She went on a two week long "vacation" to meet an old high school friend (female) now living in New York. When we found out that she wasn't calling very often, my sister checked her email. She was shocked to find that my sister had been carrying on a long-term romance with a man in New York City. We later learned that she wasn't even visiting her friend from high school, but a man that she met online. Her husband was devastated. Still, he tried to keep their marriage together. They had two very little boys. Unfortunately, my sister did it again. She left her wonderful husband for a twice divorced, very well-to-do man who was as old as our dad.

My sister and her husband quickly divorced. Her ex-husband has remained a very good friend. A few years ago, he would come to my college dorm for prayer and fellowship. About a year ago, he moved near my sister in order to be closer to his children. He has a peaceful relationship with my sister and her new husband (who seems to be a "nice" guy). But it is a sad thing to see the terrible experience that my ex-brother in law has endured. He is extremely lonely. He works, spends time with his children, and is very involved with his local church.

My wife and I discussed the possibly of remarriage for my ex-brother in law. I told her that, while I have seen no clear directive from Scripture, I know that it isn't good for him to be alone. I suggested that remarriage is not such a bad thing. My wife disagreed. She said that remarriage is strictly forbidden by the Scriptures. She was quite convinced that remarriage is a "sin" regardless of the rationale or circumstance (even death or adultery). After a few days of study and reflection, my wife was still obstinate about the issue. I wasn't trying to change her opinion. Rather, I was attempting to show her that it [u]might[/u] be acceptable in some circumstances. One night, she read a verse from the older Spanish version (Antiqua) which she felt clearly indicated that remarriage was acceptable when in cases of marriage unfaithfulness.

The point is that our limited intellects often lead us in one direction -- until a point of realization prompts us in another. Be very careful about individuals who give you a "certain word" from the Scriptures about such instances. While they may mean well, such individuals may no more speak for God as that misguided and well-meaning pastor who "gave a word" to my sister.

I will certainly remember you in prayer. I'm not sure that we will discover an easy solution, but we do know the One who knows all things. At any moment, we can throw up our arms in surrender to the Lord and start afresh. Be very careful of those believers who feel that you should believe exactly as they do in such an unclear situation.

As for the marriage thing, I suppose that you are still married to her. As a brother, if I were in the same situation, I would attempt a reconciliation. Why? Because "[i]What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder[/i]." This, of course, is my opinion -- and not a certain word from the Lord.

I am praying for you, your wife, your children and your decision.

:-)

M
murdog Aug 7, 2007

Mike,

I didn't understand when you said:

Interesting the timing of these things....

I have a question. Since we are not yet divorced, and she is committing sexual sin with another man, is that adultery?

Murray

M
murdog Aug 7, 2007

Chris,

I cannot attempt a reconciliation, she is with another man.

Secondly, I don't believe God did join us together, because she is still bound to her first husband until he dies. I believe our marriage was adultery. God was continually leading me to that scripture about marrying a divorced woman causes you to commit adultery. I did not listen, I relied on my own wisdom.

Murray

T
theopenlife Aug 7, 2007

You can [b]definitely[/b] remarry under certain circumstances, or else we aren't saved! Read Romans 7:1-4

1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; [b]that ye should be married to another[/b], even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The death of the spouse legally frees a man or woman to remarry. In the case of adultery, the old covenant law required execution, thus an adulterer was as good as dead once the sin was discovered.

Though execution of adulterers is no longer practiced, this is how Calvin and Luther came to defend their position that if a man is betrayed by his spouse and chooses not to remain with her, he is free to marry another on account of her being "dead" according to the law.

My father was married until my mother committed adultery and divorced him. She committed adultery, and he waited several years, but eventually remarried, seeing she proved herself "dead in her sins" as an unbeliever.

He now has peace as a married man.

It appears that you, MurDog, are guilty of fornicating and adultery, but you have never been married in the sight of God. I have difficulty seeing how then you are not eligible for marriage when you have never been married?

God bless you, stand strong and seek His wisdom.

M
murdog Aug 7, 2007

Michael,

In the scripture that you quoted, I believe that it is speaking of being married to Christ. Where it says "that ye should be married to another, even to HIM who is raised from the dead".

I believe the marriage I am in is classified as an adulterous marriage. The scripture says that "anyone who MARRYS a divorced woman, commits adultery". That is why I believe I am not free to remarry. Although the marriage was adulterous, it is still a marriage. And soon I will be considered a divorced man.

Murray

G
ginnyrose Aug 7, 2007

Murray,

You know what the Scriptures says about your situation so I would encourage you to remain faithful to it. I agree with you. The enemy will come along and make you question the rightness of your situation and in the process question the Biblical directives concerning divorce and remarriage. He will inform yu that you deserve to be married, you deserve to be happy, that you do not want to grow old alone, etc., etc., etc.

Now let me ask you a few questions: has God been with you so far? Have you endured? Now what makes you think He will not be there in the future and care for you? Brother, you live one day at a time, or moment by moment, if you will. Do not worry about tomorrow or the future, for that matter.

There is only one thing I would differ with you: if your first 'marriage' was adulterous then when you remove yourself from that union which was not a legitimate one anyways, this could free you to marry. But brother, if the LORD does not give you permission to go ahead with it, don't.

Murray, there are many people who will justify a remarriage after divorce with a former spouse living but you must remember they never died for your sins, they do not know what hell is like so do not listen to them!

Blessings and hoping you will remain faithfull,

ginnyrose

C
crsschk Aug 7, 2007

Are you married?
yes Mike, I am... (dreading next question :o)

Sorry about that, didn't realize at the time how that might be taken. There is a number of things on my mind about all this ... in a general sense.

C
crsschk Aug 7, 2007

I didn't understand when you said:

Hi brother. At the time you first posted this there was two or three others related up at the same time.

I really appreciated Chris's reply here. This matter has been gone through numerous times on this site and I think Chris exemplified something that was also related to by Philologos and that is that this is often a very difficult matter and not as cut and dried as we might think. It is just as well very difficult to work through all the particulars in a setting like this.

It has sent me back to the same scriptures to ponder and pray about .. once again. There is a very personal aspect to this due to someone who is very dear to me ...

What this has done is to take much into account and it raises a number of questions both broadly and in the very narrow sense. I have my own experience which was one of being outside the Lord and 'married' in my mind for seven years, helping raise her son. My present marriage, 'official' and at the time that I was just coming out of the darkness. My wife wasn't married prior but did have a son ...

Here are the hard questions and I am staunchly old fashioned in this and hold marriage to be most honorable. Something truly doesn't add up with what amounts to ... the only word that comes to mind lately is 'banishment' in far too many cases when it comes to remarriage. I just find it very difficult to reconcile ... well, that is the word actually, 'reconciliation'. And that on a number of fronts ... Where does forgiveness fit into all this? It is a true and honest question, not a dodge. What I do wonder at is how this can be taken to be an 'always', black\\white situation, no matter the circumstances, the turning and repenting, the starting over ... the places that either spouse may be at the time of divorce - saved or unsaved? And what to the ones left, with children, through no fault or even a fault of their own ... that a good, God fearing man cannot take such a one to be his wife and sacrifice even the misunderstanding of intention to bring forth an honorable marriage? Even in my instance, am I off the hook because I married, not a divorced woman but one who had conceived out of wedlock? Though she was saved and I was somewhere in the process of being so? See how easily complicated these things can be?

There is a great deal more and I just pray that we can truly look at these things soberly, there is a lot at stake Brethren, more than we know.

Murray, will be praying for you brother.

A
awakenwithin Aug 7, 2007

I have some questions

My father had married a divorced women. Now she lefted him for a other man.. He beleived that she was his wife and he would fight for her. For 5 years this man, loved this women whom had no love for him. He wrote her and called, he did everything he could.

I reminder hosa, how God had go and get his wife back. I guess my questions are is it right to say so fast that reconciliation can't be made. It seems hard thing to say. can we say that he is have reconciliation? This a hard thing.. Maybe it can't be reconciliation, but is it right not to try? what is there is Children?

brother I am praying for you. God alone put His word in our heart.. May he help in everyway..

in his love
charlene

F
freedbyjc Aug 7, 2007

In counseling a couple deep in the throes of the pain and grief that is adultery and resolutely headed for a divorce; I'm trying to help one repent from adultery and keep his life pure and they other to recover from the grief of a lost marriage and all of its inherent dreasm and needs, and move to a place where God's will is more important than hers...I was blessed to receive John Piper's recent sermons on marriage. [b][i]What Therefore God Has Joined Together, Let Not Man Separate [/i][/b] This and [url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/135/]his archives[/url] have helped me help them come to an understanding of God's will for their relationship and their lives.

John Piper has an astute way of looking at the scriptures...

[b]Are there no exceptions to the prohibition of remarriage while the spouse is living? [/b]
My answer is no. But I am very much in the minority of biblical students, and even among Bible-believing scholars and pastors. So let’s turn very briefly to Matthew 19 to see the main argument for the exception of adultery—that is, the argument that when there has been adultery against a spouse he or she is free to divorce and remarry. Matthew 19:3-12 is very much like the words of Jesus we saw last week in Mark 10:1-12. There are two main differences. The first one is in verse 9 where there is an exception clause: “And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” Most scholars say that the words “except for sexual immorality” mean that if there has been adultery, the aggrieved spouse is free to divorce and remarry.


[b]Piper’s Position[/b]
I don’t think that is what Jesus meant. There is no time to give the fairly involved explanation why. For that I refer you to [url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1986/1488_Divorce_and_Remarriage_A_Position_Paper]Divorce and Remarriage[/url]: A Position Paper. In a few sentences, since Jesus does not use the word “adultery” here (when he says “except for sexual immorality”), which he uses elsewhere (15:9) in distinction to this word, but instead uses the word typically referring to “fornication” (see especially John 8:41), I think what Jesus is doing is warning his readers that this absolute prohibition against remarriage does not apply to the situation of betrothal, where fornication may have happened.

In the article -Position Paper- listed above Piper states and -IMHO- very scripturally supports his [b]Eleven Reasons Why I Believe All Remarriage After Divorce Is Prohibited While Both Spouses Are Alive[/b]


and he concludes

In the New Testament the question about remarriage after divorce is not determined by:

-The guilt or innocence of either spouse,
Nor by whether either spouse is a believer or not,
-Nor by whether the divorce happened before or after either spouse's conversion,
-Nor by the ease or difficulty of living as a single parent for the rest of life on earth,
-Nor by whether there is adultery or desertion involved,
-Nor by the on-going reality of the hardness of the human heart,
-Nor by the cultural permissiveness of the surrounding society.

Rather it is determined by the fact that:

*Marriage is a "one-flesh" relationship of divine establishment and extraordinary significance in the eyes of God (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5; Mark 10:8),
*Only God, not man, can end this one-flesh relationship (Matthew 19:6; Mark 10:9—this is why remarriage is called adultery by Jesus: he assumes that the first marriage is still binding, Matthew 5:32; Luke 16:18; Mark 10:11),
*God ends the one-flesh relationship of marriage only through the death of one of the spouses (Romans 7:1-3; 1 Corinthians 7:39),
*The grace and power of God are promised and sufficient to enable a trusting, divorced Christian to be single all this earthly life if necessary (Matthew 19:10-12,26; 1 Corinthians 10:13),
*Temporal frustrations and disadvantages are much to be preferred over the disobedience of remarriage, and will yield deep and lasting joy both in this life and the life to come (Matthew 5:29-30).


Those who are already remarried:

*Should acknowledge that the choice to remarry and the act of entering a second marriage was sin, and confess it as such and seek forgiveness
*Should not attempt to return to the first partner after entering a second union (see 8.2 above)
*Should not separate and live as single people thinking that this would result in less sin because all their sexual relations are acts of adultery. The Bible does not give prescriptions for this particular case, but it does treat second marriages as having significant standing in God's eyes. That is, there were promises made and there has been a union formed. It should not have been formed, but it was. It is not to be taken lightly. Promises are to be kept, and the union is to be sanctified to God. While not the ideal state, staying in a second marriage is God's will for a couple and their ongoing relations should not be looked on as adulterous.

Please read the all the sermons and the accompaniing articles to get the compl;ete picture of his insight of God's desire for those in these situations.

C
crsschk Aug 7, 2007

[i]Quest.[/i]V. May husband and wife part by mutual consent, if they find it be for the good of both?

[i]Answ.[/i] If you speak not of dissolving the bond of their relations, but withdrawing as to cohabitation, I answer, 1. it is not to be done upon passions and discontents, to feed and gratify each others vicious distempers or interest: for then both the consent and the separation are their sins: but if really such an uncurable unsuitableness be between them, as that their lives must needs be miserable by their cohabitation, I know not but they may live asunder; so be it, that (after all other means used in vain) they do it by deliberate, free consent. But if one of them should by craft or cruelty constrain the other to consent, it is unlawful to the constrainer. Nor must impatience make either of them ungroundedly despair of the cure of any unsuitableness which is really curable. But many sad instances might be given, in which cohabitation may be a constant calamity to both, and distance may be their relief, and further them both in God's service, and in their corporal concernments. Yet I say not that this is no sin; for their unsuitableness is their sin: and God still obligeth them to lay down that sin which make them unsuitable; and therefore doth not allow them to live asunder, it being still their duty to live together in love and peace; and saying they cannot, freeth them not from the duty. But yet that moral impotency may make such a seperation as foresaid, to be lesser sin than their unpeaceable cohabitation.

[i]Quest[/i].VI. May not the relation itself be dissolved by mutual, free consent, so that they may marry others?

[i]Answ.[/i] As to the relation, they will still be related as those that did not covenant to live in conjugal society, and are still allowed it and obliged to it, if the impediments were but removed; and it is but the exercise which is hindered. And they may not consent to marry others: 1. Because the contracted relation was for life, Rom vii.2, and God's law accordingly obligeth them. Marriages [i]pro tempore,[/i] dissoluble by consent, are not of God's institution, but contrary to it. 2. They know not but their impediments of cohabitation may be removed. 3. If he that marrieth an innocent divorced woman commit adultery, by parity of reason (with advantage) it will be so here. If you say, what if either of them cannot contain? I answer, he that will not take heed before, must be patient afterwards, and not make advantage of his own folly, to the fulfilling of his lusts. If he will do what he ought to do in the use of all means, he may live chastely. And, 4. The public interest must overrule the private, and that which would be unjust in private respects, may for public good become a duty: it seemeth unjust here with us, that the innocent country should repay every man his money, who between sun and sun is robbed on the road; and yet because it will engage the country to watchfulness, it is just, as for the common good: and he that consenteh to be a member of the commonwealth, doth thereby consent to submit his own right to the common interest. So here, if all should have leave to marry others when they consent to part, it would bring utter confusion, and it would encourage wicked men to abuse their wives, till they forced them to consent. Therefore some must bear the trouble which their folly hath brought on themselves, rather than the common order should be confounded.

[i]Quest.[/i] VII. Doth adultery dissolve the bond of marriage, or not? Amesius saith it doth: Mr. Whateley having said so, afterward recanted it by the persuasion of other divines.

[i]Answ.[/i] The difference is only about the name, and not the matter itself. The reason which moved Dr. Ames is, because the injured person is free; therefore not bound: therefore the bond is dissolved. The reason which Mr. Whateley could not answer is, because it is not fornication, but lawful, if they continue their conjugal familiarity after adultery: therefore that bond is not dissolved. In all which is easy to perceive, that one of them taketh the word [i]vinculum[/i] or bond in one sense, that is "for their covenant obligation to continue their relation and mutual duties." And the other taketh it in another sense, that is, "for the relation itself as by it they are allowed conjugal familiarity, if the injured person will continue it." The first [i]vinculum[/i] or bond is dissolved, the second is not. In the matter we are agreed, that the injured man may put away an adulterous wife (in a regular way) if he please; but withal that he may continue the relation if he please. So that his continued consent shall suffice to continue it a lawful relation and exercise; and his will, on the contrary, shall suffice to dissolve the relation, and disoblige him. (Saving the public order.)

[i]Quest.[/i] VIII. But is not the injured party at all obliged to separate, but left free?

[i]Answ.[/i] Considering the thing simply in itself, he is wholly free to do as he please. But for all that accidents or circumstances may make it one man's duty to divorce, and another's duty to continue the relation; according as it is like to do more good or hurt. Sometimes it may be a duty to expose the sin to public shame, for the prevention of it in others; and also to deliver oneself from calamity. And sometimes there may be so great repentance, and hope of better effects by forgiving, that it may be a duty to forgive: and prudence must lay one thing with another, to discern on which side the duty lieth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Continued ...

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