Does the View of Progressive Sanctification Effectively Endorse the Carnal Mind Described in Rom 7

Paul says in Romans 7 that the carnal mind is enimity against God and further that "he is carnal, sold under sin". He goes on to say that when he wants to do good, evil is right there with him; Never the less Paul also chastizes the Corinthian believers for yet being "carnal" and challenges them to go on to maturity (perfection?)

Do we really believe that Paul considered himself "carnal" and that he still struggled with a continuing conflict to do what was right as an exeception rather than the rule? Isn't it more clear scripturally that he had had learned to abide in Christ, to identify with Him completely at the cross, to have put on the mind of Christ, and was able to realize the reality of Christ in Him not in the future hope only, but present tense as applied to circumstances and challenges in life.

Progressive Sanctification teaches that as we walk with God we become more and more like Christ, however we always maintain a fundamental sin nature, and will always sin. Most of us strive for copying the model of Christ ie with the help of the Holy Spirit. We also give assent that of course we will always sin, since how can we be "better" than Paul and didn't he struggle?

Isn't striving to be "holy" in and of ourselves as little Christs just another form of self realization, self interest, and self consciousness that is fundamentally indicative of the "carnal mind" the claim to my right to myself? Doesn't this presumption of duality and separation from God condemn me to sin and failure by continued slavery to an "old" nature by definition. WHERE IS THE POWER?

I am disturbed by too many Christians resigning themselves to unrighteousness and expectation of sin - they usually don't even know what they've done ie "I know I sin all the time" - what are you doing? stop it!!

Read book on rediscovering the Cross the author reiterated a story of going to Starbucks and being asked " how are you" his reply " better than I deserve" he then proceeded to get into the discussion regarding faith. This kind of talk is beginning to make me gag. I mean come on - you've walked with Christ for years - and all you can do is heap condemnation upon yourself and that in front of the unbeliever. They don't want to hear it. Maybe they need to know about the Redemption - Christ died for the sin of the world, about Salvation - that you can be freed from the power, penalty and presence of sin - now and forever - now thats a hope. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!

My Pastor said the other day - old bumper sticker - BE PATIENT WITH ME GOD ISN'T DONE WITH ME YET. He said this was good theology. If so it certainly seems like poor psychology and poor prescription for righteous behaviour. If he said " I'LL BE PATIENT WITH YOU BECAUE GOD ISN'T FINISHED WITH YOU YET! I might applaud the sediment - otherwise IT'S JUST AN EXCUSE FOR BAD BEHAVIOUR.

We need a new paridigm:

Hunger after righteouness; God Imparts; We Identify with Christ ( both on and off the Cross) We Abide in this Reality - He manifests Himeself in and too and through us.

Then "IF" any man sin - he has an advocate and can return anytime.

WE CAN BE RIGHTEOUS AND WE CAN BE HOLY! THEN WALK IN THE LIGHT AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT.

Let's quit being Carnal and grow up into maturity to righteousness unto holiness to the glory of the father and His son foreever and ever amen.

Good word. :-)

Brother Robert wrote;

Paul says in Romans 7 that the carnal mind is enimity against God and further that "he is carnal, sold under sin". He goes on to say that when he wants to do good, evil is right there with him; Never the less Paul also chastizes the Corinthian believers for yet being "carnal" and challenges them to go on to maturity (perfection?)

Many look to Romans 7 as an excuse to sin as you have stated in your post. Paul teaches that there is no means available to man based on his carnal mind to please God. As you have stated, it is Paul's assertion that we go onto maturity. In Romans 8, Paul teaches that the Holy Spirit is given to teach us the way we should walk...

Progressive Sanctification teaches that as we walk with God we become more and more like Christ, however we always maintain a fundamental sin nature, and will always sin. Most of us strive for copying the model of Christ ie with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Paul also teaches that a "babe in Christ" does not yet understand the things of the Spirit, yet this babe has been given all things pretaining to Christ...

See 1 Corinthians chapter 1...

So there is according to Scripture a progressive growth in a believer's life. Paul warns the Corinthians that though they have many teachers there are few fathers among them.

Likewise John teaches in 1 John that there is a progression from 'little children" to "young men" to "fathers" that speaks of growing in spiritual maturity.

This maturing process both speaks of growing in holiness and growing in the understanding of the ways of God...

In Christ
Jeff

Early-Methodism (ie. Wesley) taught an experience of immediate deliverance that he called "sanctification". Not progressive only, but an "event" after-which holiness could proceed. Early Methodism is filled with testimonial accounts of this event. See the old book "How They Entered Canaan" for example. When Pentecost fell upon the Wesleyan "Come Outers" in 1901 and afterward at Azusa Street this doctrine was misapplied as the necessary "Second Work" preceding Spirit Baptism. This created confusion which was relieved by Durham's (Baptistic) "Finished Work" doctrine that denied the Wesleyan doctrine altogether in favor of a "Progressive" view of sanctification. This rejection of an "event" wherein we "put off the body of the sins of the flesh" (Col. 2:11) has led to a church that does not seem to "progress" (as they are taught they are to do). My own experience is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit will bring one to an "event" of sanctification through an encounter with Christ & thereafter strengthen in the way of holiness.

hi, in the late 60s we were having church outside of baton rouge and lo and behold, about a hundred Jesus people showed up at the front door with their robes and sandals women dressed with no undergarments. a group of unhirable young people living in vans etc. i asked the lady who i regarded as the the most wise woman in our church what we should do with these weird folks and she said nothing. let us love them and watch the Holy Spirit change them through the preaching.a year later one guy who had a beard down to his belt and hair down to his rump and wore a robe with a bell tied to it showed up to church clean shaven and in a suit with a white shirt and a bow tie.he had gotten a job as a computer programmer with the city. to watch God change the young people was a thrill because no one told them anything accept to love Jesus with vigor. many secret marriages went on that first year also .it was beautiful to see and wonderful to remember.jimp the young man i spoke of :glen went to bible col. with me and turned out to be one of my dearest friends and was in my house every week listening to len ravenhill minister.

Peacemaker wrote:

"Isn't striving to be "holy" in and of ourselves as little Christs just another form of self realization, self interest, and self consciousness that is fundamentally indicative of the "carnal mind" the claim to my right to myself?"

and...

"IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!"

Yes this is true. For the Scriptures teach that our "striving to be "holy"" is according to the carnal mind. But Scripture then teaches that the Holy Spirit is given as our counselor. So we have a choice, listen and obey the Spirit, or continue to strive according to the flesh. If we listen and obey then we find ourselves in this parable...

Mat 11:27\t"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and [the one] to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him].

Mat 11:28\t"Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29\t"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Mat 11:30\t"For My yoke [is] easy and My burden is light."

The "yoke" is the Spirit that speaks.

Hi,

I dont belive romans 7 is talking about unregenrate men as the sinless perfectionsts teaches

There are several reasons for that.

1. verse 22 " For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being"

This is very impossible for a hater of God that has not a renewed heart.
Only a man who loves God and are his child can delight in his law.

2. verse 18 "For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out".

A man who is an enemy of God and not his child do not have a desire to do what is right Joh 3:20 is clear on this and i can add Rom 8:7

3. 1 Joh 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

If anyone claim to be sinless he deceives himself and he is a liar!

4.Rom 6:23 "Wages of sin is death"
Since all men die there is no one sinless.
Christ was the only one who ever was sinless but he gave his life freely.

Greatings from a wicked vile and useless worm.

[quote by rookie
Mat 11:30 "For My yoke [is] easy and My burden is light."
The "yoke" is the Spirit that speaks]

Thank you.

Hi Josef83,

RE:Josef83 wrote //I dont belive romans 7 is talking about unregenrate men as the sinless perfectionsts teaches
There are several reasons for that.
1. verse 22 " For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being"
This is very impossible for a hater of God that has not a renewed heart.
Only a man who loves God and are his child can delight in his law//

Romans 7 is a first person narrative of a past tense event,
Romans 7 is a man under the Law not a regenerated man dead to the Law.

Paul as an unregenerate Jew very much did delight in the Law of God as does many unsaved religious men do (Acts ch 22 v 3 Paul says
" I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, (as ye all are this day")

In Phillippians ch 3 v 6 Paul says that as an unregenerate Jew that touching the righteousness which is in the law, he was blameless.

RE://1 Joh 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
If anyone claim to be sinless he deceives himself and he is a liar!//

1 John ch 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

RE://Rom 6:23 "Wages of sin is death"
Since all men die there is no one sinless.
Christ was the only one who ever was sinless but he gave his life freely.//

What is the context and point being articulated in Romans ch 6 ??

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid (strongest negative in the Greek Language). How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

the Man in Romans 7 is under the Law!!

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

RE: //Greatings from a wicked vile and useless worm.//

We need to believe the Gospel that the wicked vile useless worm is dead and be freed from legalism and sin!!
For he that is dead is freed from sin