Moral Character = Intention

Is your moral character derived from your outward actions or from your inward intention?

I believe that as your intention is, so your moral character is. If your intention is loving, you are pure. If your intention is selfish, you are sinful.

Consider the Pharisees. Their outward action consisted in praying and fasting. But their inward intention was selfish, they did it to be seen.

Did the Pharisees have any righteousness at all, or did they merely appear righteous? Jesus said that they "appear righteous outwardly but inwardly were full of iniquity."

Doing a "good thing" which a bad motive makes you a bad person, not a good person.

Also consider the story of The Count of Monte Cristo

Edmond is helped by Napoleon on an Island to try to save his captains life. Though the captain dies, Napoleon asks Edmond a favor. Take a letter off the island (from which Napoleon was a prison) to a friend of his, as sort of payment for the help.

Ignorant and stupid Edmond trusted Napoleons words that the letter was harmful, of nothing but person nature, simply written to an old friend.

In England, Edmond is caught with the letter, which to the surprise of stupid Edmond, was treasonous.

The prosecutor realizes Edmond is innocent, because Edmond did not know any better and was ignorant, because Edmonds intention was pure, yet because the letter was suppose to be sent to the prosecutors Father, who was in on the treason, the prosecute sends Edmond to a secret prison.

Everyone who knows the story becomes grieved at heart at Edmond's plight, because Edmond was innocent. Granted, Edmond broke the letter of the law - he carried a treason letter from Napoleon. But Edmond himself was innocent in the sense that his intentions were pure and was ignorant so as not to have known better.

And so it is, that a man's moral character is derived from his intention. A man is innocent or guilty, harmless or praiseworthy, depending on his intention.

Did he mean well? Then he is blameless! Did he mean harm? Then he is evil!

"To the pure, all things are pure" and "a good tree cannot produce bad fruit".

A man with a pure intention has a perfect intention, and is therefore blameless, which is why the bible talks about having a "pure heart" and a "perfect heart" and of a man being "faultless" and "blameless".

I don't know anything about Kant, and this has nothing to do with Finney. This was about the bible's teaching.

And this is about moral character and intention, not about the atonement.

If this were a thread about philosophy, you could respond with philosophy. But since this is a thread about the bible, you must respond with the bible.

Were not the Pharisees sinful in their praying and fasting, because their motive was selfish, because they did it to be seen?

Isn't a man with a "pure heart" and "perfect heart" as the bible says, "blameless" and "faultless".

We are all prone to mistakes because of our finite minds. No man can be perfect in knowledge and understand and therefore no man is above making mistakes, but we can be perfect in intention and therefore blameless, because love fulfills the law.

These are questions that need to be asked and answered:

- Is sin some "stuff" or is sin a motive?

- Is sin transgression of the law?

- Does something other then selfishness violate the law of love?

- Is sin something else other then violation of the law of love?

- Is there a sin that does not violate the law?

- Is there a law other then the law of love? Doesn't love fulfill the law?

If all sin is violation of the law, and the law is the law of love, then all sin is violation of the law of love, i.e. selfishness.

Otherwise, there is some type of "sin" that does not violate the law, and there is some law other then the law of love, so that love does not fulfill the law.

roaringlamb,

Are you saying that sin is transmitted through semen like Augustine taught? What is "sin" that it can be transmitted through semen?

Is sin a gas, solid, or a liquid? All sins if of the heart (as Jesus said all sin comes from the heart) consists in a wrong moral choice, or in a selfish intention of the heart.

- "Sin is transgression of the law (1John)

- What is the law? The law of love.

- Sin is transgression of the law of love.

Sin is being selfish, loving self supremely rather then loving God supremely and neighbor equally. Sin is not some "stuff" but sin is selfishness.

Nothing can be sin but violation of the law, and nothing is the law but the law of love. The law requires that we love God supremely and neighbor equally, and so sin is loving self supremely.

--------------------

This is what Jesus said about the Pharisees:

Matthew Chapter 23

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

- Were the Pharisees "full of iniquity" because they had some sin stuff inherited from Adam, or because their motive, was it because "all their works they do for to be seen of men" ??

Mt 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

In the original language, "heart" is referencing man's will and mind, it is referencing what a man voluntarily wills or what a man voluntarily is minding - a man's preference - choice - selection.

Man is self-determining because man has a freewill. No man is forced to sin by God, the devil, or nature. You cannot blame others for what man himself is responsible for. Freewill is responsible for sin.

A man voluntarily sins because his heart is [i]voluntarily[/i] evil.

Mt 12:35 - "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

If a man's intention (will/heart) is good (benevolent), he will bring forth good things. But if a man's intention (will/heart) is evil (selfish) he will bring forth evil things.

A man's intention (will/heart) determines his own character and conduct. A man who wills evil does evil. A man who selects good does good.

Do you believe that men are totally depraved "physically?"

If you were totally physically depraved, you wouldn't be able to think, see, smell, or hear.

I believe sinners are totally morally depraved (their motive is always selfish) but that we are not totally physically depraved. We can still touch, taste, etc.

Our bodies are physically fallen and corrupted that is for sure, but not totally. They still have somewhat of a proper function.

If you do, are you saying that a moral action that would be immaterial (not a gas solid liquid) was transfered into a material substance (flesh)?

Physical disease, discomfort, and death are a [u]result[/u] of wrong moral action (Adam getting us kicked out of the garden) but disease, discomfort, and death are not moral action transferred into material substance. They are the [u]result[/u] of bad moral action, but not moral action becoming some physical stuff.

If I make a bad moral choice to drink alcohol, that may have physical [u]effects[/u] upon my body. And if a parent does drugs during pregnancy, that has [u]effects[/u] upon her body and her child's body. These are [u]effects[/u] of sin, but not sin itself being transmitted.

Adam has brought disease, discomfort, and death to the whole human race because he was kicked out of the garden of Eden, and consequently so where all of his posterity.

According to your logic, isn't the below scripture absurd?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I believe that 1Corinthians teaches that we inherit physical death from Adam through semen, because what is physical is hereditary and is transmitted through semen.

But I believe Romans 5 simply compares the [u]results[/u] of Adams disobedience to the [u]results[/u] of Christ's obedience.

Romans 5 says [i]absolutely nothing[/i] about sin being transferred through semen nor does it say anything about our birth.

It simply says that the [u]result[/u] of Adam's sin is that all men have voluntarily chosen to sin and the [u]result[/u] of Christ's obedience is that all men have justification offered to them, but they of course must voluntarily take it.

Sin is not transmitted through birth anymore then justification is transmitted through birth. Sinful parents do not transmit their sinfulness through semen anymore then holy parents transmit their holiness through semen. Romans 9:11 says children in the womb have not yet done good or bad, because sinfulness and holiness are derived from voluntary choices of freewill.

What is moral must be voluntary. To send a baby to hell for being born with sin is like sending a man to jail for being born with a certain color skin. Criminality is limited to the voluntary. What is moral and ethical comes, not from what is physically hereditary, but what is voluntarily and avoidably chosen by freewill.

Haven't you read any of my posts on the bibles doctrine of synergy?

* Jesus has given us an "example" as to how we should live - John 13:15

* The grace teaches us to live holy and to deny sin - Titus 2:11

* God calls us to repent - Acts 17:30

* the Spirit convicts us of sin - John 16:8

* and the instrument used in setting us free is truth - John 8:32.

* But we ourselves need to voluntarily repent (cleanse ourselves) - James 4:8; we ourselves need to voluntarily obey the truth (thus purify our souls)1Pet 1:22.

Jesus, God, the Spirit, the Truth, God's grace, and freewill have a role in a sinner turning from sin (being cleansed from sin).

Jesus gave us an example, we must follow. God calls, we must obey. Grace teaches, we must listen. The Spirit convicts, we must yeild. Truth reveals, we must believe. And repentance is an act that we ourselves do, (it is not forced) and repentance is brought about by Jesus - God - Grace - Spirit - Truth.

These all influence us to repent (turn from sin, cleanse ourselves) and we ourselves must yeild to or obey that influence.

And if we do this, if we obey by repenting, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin - 1John 1:7 - that is, the blood of Jesus Christ justifies us, God pardons us because of Christ's blood upon condition of repentance - Luke 13:3

Justification by the blood (cleansed from all sin) is upon condition of our own repentance, which is brought about by Jesus - God - Grace - Spirit - Truth. The blood cleanses (justifies) those who "walk in the light" and who "confess" their sin - 1John 1:7, 1:9

So we must repent and then the blood justifies us.

----------------------

I would argue that your belief is dangerous. If you believe that the will is not free, and regeneration therefore needs to be forced, the only way that you can account for the fact that not everyone is regenerated and saved is (not because of freewill) but because God wants the majority of the world to live in sin, die in sin, and go to hell for their unavoidable sin.

In your view, God is willing that the majority should perish and not repent; that God wills that multitudes continue to sin instead of repent.

Jesse,

How do you interpret the phrase "the law of sin which is in my members. " from Romans 7:23?

I think it means that your flesh (your body) has lusts or cravings for gratification (sin).

A drug baby has cravings for drugs. The law of sin is in it's members, or you could say the cravings for sin (drugs) is in it's body.

Temptation comes from lust. Each man is tempted by his own lust. But sin is when freewill voluntarily yeilds to that lust.

Our physical lusts can be called physical depravity. We are born physically depraved with a bias towards sin because of those physical lusts. Those physical lusts are temptation, not sin. So we are born with the law of sin in our members, influencing our wills to commit sin.

--------------

Roaringlamb, the bible also says "If I be lifted up, I will DRAW ALL MEN unto myself".

And God sends the Holy Spirit to convict all men, to strive with man, but men must voluntarily yield to that influence - to that drawing.

When I preach open air, I draw in crowds. I do my part in influencing them to come, and they do their part to voluntarily come of their own freewill.