Basic Scripture Texts (Total Depravity)

Ormly wrote:
I'm still looking for one that says he was. Did I miss it somewhere?

Same here.

Ormly wrote:
I'm still looking for one that says he was. Did I miss it somewhere?

[b]Romans 7:22-23[/b] [color=990000]For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
[b]23:[/b] But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.[/color]

If Paul, before he was saved, delighted in the Law of God according to his "inward man" and war with the Law God with the "law of his mind" this would prove "Total Depravity" to be false.

Question: Why wouldn't/couldn't one be converted to Christ for salvation, [I don't believe conversion is synomynous with "begotten again" 1Pet.1.3]since rational thinking can accomplish this? To be "born again" is to be chosen by God. Ergo, it is not something man benefits from by reciting a sinners prayer. Can you see that?

by Logic on 2007/8/10 0:15:42

Romans 7:22-23 For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
23: But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul, before he was saved, delighted in the Law of God according to his "inward man" and war with the Law God with the "law of his mind" this would prove "Total Depravity" to be false.

7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Romans 7:7-25

In this case, The Law gives Paul's concience a standard beyond his own fallen self-righteouness, one that is divine in nature. This immediately creates a conflict between his soul which delights in the Moral Law now that it is no longer a source of condemnation for sin having been rescued from Radical Corruption, and the flesh which still yearns for the sinful nature to be expressed. The law, serving as the Holy Spirit's chosen medium in the process of regeneration to bring about the revealation of "sin, righteousness and the judgment to come", leads an unsaved person to the cross, yet it also leads the believer back as they use it to examine themselves to see the need for the savior.

As we mature in Him, this need arising from a greater revelation of our complete sinfulness becomes more and more apparent, as does the realisation of Christ's saving grace that follows.

Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, "I have made my heart pure;
I am clean from my sin"?

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that(A) the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Mark 7:21-23
For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.

Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Romans 8:5-9
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Titus 3:3
For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.

by Ormly on 2007/8/10 0:12:11

Question: Why wouldn't/couldn't one be converted to Christ for salvation, [I don't believe conversion is synomynous with "begotten again" 1Pet.1.3]since rational thinking can accomplish this? To be "born again" is to be chosen by God. Ergo, it is not something man benefits from by reciting a sinners prayer. Can you see that?

Nowhere in scripture does it say or demonstrate than man has been or is saved by the act of prayer, recited or otherwise. If such were possible, it would be works-based salvation on man's part rather than the grace of God.

brother, i see what you are saying. so what i would probably call a person not being born again, you would call them converted right?? you are saying that they may be converted (persuaded that Christ is the answer), but not born again of the Spirit right?? do you believe that someone who is converted is saved?? i wouldn't believe that they were, if i correctly understand how you use the word converted.

anyways, thanks brother ormly for taking time out and writing me back on this.

brother ormly, thank you for your patience and kindness in discussing this issue with me. i appreciate it.

intrcssr83 wrote:

by Logic on 2007/8/10 0:15:42

Romans 7:22-23 For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
23: But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul, before he was saved, delighted in the Law of God according to his "inward man" and war with the Law God with the "law of his mind" this would prove "Total Depravity" to be false.

In this case, The Law gives Paul's concience a standard beyond his own fallen self-righteouness, one that is divine in nature. This immediately creates a conflict between his soul which delights in the Moral Law now that it is no longer a source of condemnation for sin having been rescued from Radical Corruption, and the flesh which still yearns for the sinful nature to be expressed. The law, serving as the Holy Spirit's chosen medium in the process of regeneration to bring about the revealation of "sin, righteousness and the judgment to come", leads an unsaved person to the cross, yet it also leads the believer back as they use it to examine themselves to see the need for the savior.

As we mature in Him, this need arising from a greater revelation of our complete sinfulness becomes more and more apparent, as does the realisation of Christ's saving grace that follows.

I'm not sure what you said, sorry.

Romans 7 is pauls testemony before he was saved.
He was not [u]Totaly Drepraved[/u] to delight in the Law of God.
He was not [u]Totaly Drepraved[/u] that he would have a conflict with the Law of God and the standard of his moral conscience.

If "Totaly Drepravity" is true there would be no delight and no conflict with the Law of God.

For "Totaly Drepravity" to be true, the conflict would not be there because of apathy or indifference to the Law of God.

Since there is a conflict to the Law of God, proves that the depravity is not "Total"

Romans 7 is pauls testimony before he was saved.

No, it cannot be as no natural man delights in God's Law-
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God [b]after the inward man:[/b]

Now consider this verse with the surrounding verses-
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But [b]I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,[/b] and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The indwelling of sin will war against our members until the day of glorification, thus Paul's words in Galatians echo this-
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth(wars) against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

To further show that no natural can delight in the Law, consider-
Rom 7:14 For we know that [b]the law is spiritual:[/b] but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So if Paul delights in the law inwardly, he must have the Spirit, for the natural man cannot receive spiritual things. Natural man has no concern or delight to keep God's law.

The point of this passage is the struggle of the two natures, the one which is the body of sin, and the other the delight in the law of God. The struggle comes as one seeks to override the other, and thus we have a constant need for grace to walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the deeds of the flesh.

Brother abe here are some more-

Genesis 6:5, 6:11-12, 8:21
Deuteronomy 29:2-4
1 Kings 8:46
2 Chronicles 36:15-16
Job 14:4, 15:14-16
Psalms 2:2-3,5:9,14:1-3,50:16-17,51:5,58:3,143:2
Proverbs 5:22, 14:12, 20:9, 30:12
Ecclesiastes 7:20-29, 9:3
Ezekiel 11:19-20, 16:6, 36:26-27
Isaiah 1:2-8, 29:16, 40:6-8, 44:18-28, 48:8, 53:6, 64:6-7
Jeremiah 4:22, 9:5, 13:23, 17:1-9
Matthew 6:24, 7:18, 7:23-24, 10:20, 12:34-35, 15:13-19
Mark 10:26-27
Luke 8:11-12
John 1:13, 3:3,6-8, 3:19-20, 3:27, 4:14, 5:24, 6:37-51, 6:65, 8:19, 8:43-47, 10:28-30, 11:25, 15:5, 17:24
Romans 1:18-32, 3:9-24, 4:8, 5:12, 6:16-22, 7:14-18, 8:5-8, 8:28-39, 9:8, 9:20, 11:8, 11:32, 14:4
1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14, 3:20-21, 10:13, 15:21-22
2 Corinthians 1:9, 2:14, 4:8-9, 4:14, 9:8
Galatians 3:22
Ephesians 2:1-4, 2:12, 4:17-19
Colossians 1:21, 2:13
Philippians 1:6, 2:13
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Titus 1:15
Hebrews 11:6
James 1:14-17, 4:17
2 Timothy 4:3-4
2 Peter 2:13-19
1 John 1:8, 2:16

And some more to chew on-

1. Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Rom 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2.He is therefore unable

A)To do anything good

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Job 15:14-16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

Psa 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Rom 3:9-12 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

B)To believe in God (or come to him)

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh 8:43-45 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 12:37-41 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

C)To understand the truth

Joh 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

D)To seek God

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3.He is dead in sins

Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Joh 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Eph 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

4.He is blinded and corrupt in his heart

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mar 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in [by] God.

Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Eph 4:17-19 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

5.He is captive to sin and Satan

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

6.He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Mat 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Mar 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Jam 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.