Should we agree or disagree with our brothers/sisters and in what manner or remain silent?

sermonindex Aug 14, 2007

God's Love being manifested requires speaking truth and at times, truth will indeed offend others. Is speaking truth love, even when it offends others? Can we give any greater love than speaking truth to someone about life. Often Jesus offended others speaking truth and they called him demon and said they were right. When he spoke, HE always spoke truth, because HE is truth. And if we are to strive to be christlike, don't ever let anyone convince you, just because you are in conflict or have offended, that you are out of the will of God or that when you are in HIS will there will be no conflict. Many people have bought into that lie and we can see from scripture with very little effort it is not so. On the other hand we can be out of HIS will in conflict, but not when speaking truth or being forgiving. And as we can see in many SI post and with the conflicts of the early Apostles below, it is often just a process we go through to have unity and HIS will. Count it all joy my brothers when you through trials!!!
Eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, what God has in store for those who love HIM, but HE has revealed to them by HIS Spirit.

Disagreement does not neccesarily indicate we will not come to unity and eventually come to the same purpose? Remember Paul had disputes but they eventually and possibly even at the time, had the same purpose.

Acts 15:2-3
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
KJV

Acts 15:37-39
37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
KJV

Also Paul and Peter had exchanges.
Gal 2:9-18
9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!

These discussions are some of same discussions that occur on SI. Even Peter and Paul had discussions.
Paul and Mark, they were all used by God.

sermonindex Aug 14, 2007

I think sometimes "speaking the truth in love" is Christian-ese for "I'm going to tell you off now!"

If thats our real heart, then we need to shut our mouths and ask God to forgive us.

Having said that, if our motivation is godly, then we should speak the truth and season it with salt. If someone gets offended, so be it... they are not really offended by you, they are offended by God. Let God deal with those who would shake their tiny little fists at God.

My 4 yr old shook his fist at his mama a couple days ago... he apparently forgot that his mama is my queen. I doubt he will ever do that again. As I was "dealing with him" I thought of how God must be amazed when man stands down here and shakes his fist at Him. He could wipe any of us out at any second for any reason.

Krispy

sermonindex Aug 14, 2007

Krisykritr wrote:
I thought of how God must be amazed when man stands down here and shakes his fist at Him. He could wipe any of us out at any second for any reason.

moe_mac
Amen, and I know he would have already wiped me out, if it were not for HIS grace, love and rich mercy. When we realize HE is the King and recognize he deserved LORDSHIP and we are constantly aware of HIS great power, it changes our prospective in all things. SI member pray for me, in my weakness and that I will constantly and dilgently look to HIM for HIS strength.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Aug 14, 2007

Hi Krispy...

I agree, but...

Having said that, if our motivation is godly, then we should speak the truth and season it with salt. If someone gets offended, so be it... they are not really offended by you, they are offended by God. Let God deal with those who would shake their tiny little fists at God.

The problem with this statement lay in the fact that many people are following what they wholeheartedly ~~[u]~~assume[/u] to be "truth." In many of the more controversial discussions within the forums, many people have seasoned their arguments with the "truth" that is not universally accepted by fellow believers. There are individuals who proclaim the "truth" about matters that aren't completely revealed by the Word of God. How many arguments on SI have been heated because of such claims. Afterward, the "martyr syndrome" sets in when people do not completely acknowledge the validity of the "truth" that was presented -- or call such "truth" into question.

A list of controversial subjects could be listed about which people have different perspectives in the forums. Unfortunately, such a list of controversial topics would be as long as the number of patrons to the forums! Music, dress, politics, hairstyles, gender roles, TV, marriage/divorce, the extent or limits to salvation, personal sanctification, particular denominational doctrines (...and even including sports and Scripture translations), etc... -- all of these are articulated with "truth" as is perceived by the person making a point.

While it is a wonderful and helpful thing to present our beliefs, it is a dreadful thing to disrespect those with whom we disagree. Some people with "short fuses" grow verbally frustrated rather quickly, while others tend to excuse themselves from the forum and "pray for the lost heretics" with which they disagree.

The proper manner in which to carry on such conversations, I believe, is to mingle the conversation with the salt of understanding and patience. People who frequent this forum are not looking for cheap or lightweight gospel messages. They are hungry for the "meat" of God's Word in a vegetarian and protein-deficient church world. But we should always be prepared for a diversity of opinion on a topic. No matter how much we know (or think we know), we don't have the right to verbally spit on the beliefs of others.

Sadly, I confess that I have been guilty of this! While I have tried to maintain a third-person perspective in many arguments, I often have had to repent for self-righteous pride in thinking that my knowledge or understanding was "superior" to that of others.

What should we do? Like you said, we should have our conversation seasoned with fresh salt. We should be patient with others -- even in the things we "know" to be truth. "Slow to speak" should be extended to our typing and keyboarding. And above all, we should love each person with whom we disagree with a Christ-like "die for you" compassion. As such, it is difficult to grow angry with someone that you know truly loves you. I've quickly learned to ask my wife and her family (during controversial doctrinal topics), "~~[i]~~Have you considered that...[/i]" Even if a consensus is not reached, we are edified by the manner in which we share.

Ahhhh...I am preaching to myself in the mirror. Good words all around, guys. Ouch and Amen!

:-(

sermonindex Aug 14, 2007

Jesus said: "Out of the fulness of the heart the mouth speaks."

What comes out of our mouth (or in our writing) reveals our true heart and nature, even if we try to hide it.

Some can be very sweet, polite and reasonable, yet destroy someone else by that very sweet reasonableness.

This "false way" is far more dangerous and destructive than simple rudeness or aggressiveness. Destructive both to the one who has this terrible twist in their nature and for those who suffer from their poisonous yet honey-coated forked tongue. I can think of a few scriptures to demonstrate that!

Some who come over as aggressive or rude may actually have a good heart, just an unfortunate manner. Or maybe they just feel very strongly about a particular subject and become angry and upset when others disagree.

If we want to avoid both wrongs we need to let the Lord search and put right our hearts. Then, even if we get excited about a matter and express ourselves too strongly, our true and honest heart will be what comes across, and we will be quick to apologise if the rudeness or wrong approach is pointed out.

Thank you Moe, for raising this important matter.

Blessings

Jeannette

sermonindex Aug 14, 2007

Edit out. Not helpful...

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Aug 17, 2007

Hi LittleGift...

I agree with your post. There is both a danger in being overly aggressive in what we KNOW to be "truth," what we THINK to be "truth," and what we aren't-quite-100%-sure-but-say-it-anyway in regards to "truth." Often, I believe that we can muddle what we THINK to be truth with what we KNOW to be truth. I believe that this is the source of many arguments on SermonIndex. One believer shares a concept or idea which they seem totally confident to be "truth," which is disputed by another believer. An argument entails...feelings are hurt...a public display of "cold shoulder" commences...a moderator is sometimes needed to "lock" the thread/discussion.

These sort of discussions tend to divide groups, yet unite adherents to the various beliefs. When someone says something that we agree with, we say, "~~[i]~~He is just a little rude, but that is his nature. He is certainly telling the truth. He just needs to show a little love.[/i]" If a person says something that we disagree with, we say, "~~[i]~~Here they go off again preaching their own little sectarian beliefs! I'm glad the mods stepped in![/i]" But where is the good in all of this? We tend to unite and forgive the brother or sister who is a little rude IF we agree with their particular beliefs.

On the other, there are some "quieter" arguments that tend to "hinder" a fellow believer. You said that such arguments "...~~[i]~~can be very sweet, polite and reasonable, yet destroy someone else by that very sweet reasonableness[/i]." This is true when an individual intends to maliciously correct or embarrass a fellow believer. Yet this is not always the case, no matter how much of the "heart" we think that their post "reveals."

Over the past several years on SermonIndex, we have met individuals from all sort of doctrinal backgrounds and personalities. Some almost "pride" themselves from being an "in-your-face" type of prophet figure, ready to call down rhetorical fire on anyone who disagrees with their words or doctrinal beliefs. Some are bold yet hesitant to share because of the difficulty of seperating what is "pure" truth from what we simply deem to be truth. Others are simply eager to share what they think, yet feel almost "threatened" by the louder voices in the forums that publicly discount an opposing voice or belief. Most of us, however, simply feel eager to say what we think -- not realizing the impact that our comments might have upon another believer.

In the past, there was a particular individual who boldly shared her beliefs as "pure truth" on SermonIndex. She was a very sweet person UNTIL you disagreed with, or called into question, her doctrine. While I tended to agree with her far more than disagree, she still wrote me several times about some of my posts. She warned me about "falling away" on account of my possible beliefs that were included in the comments that questioned one of her particular doctrines. Oddly enough, in the weeks before this, she was publicly proclaiming how "wise" I was. This particular sister wrote to me via PM, email and even publicly in the forum about how I was attempting to "~~[i]~~destroy[/i] her with sweetness." She said this because I was very polite in my posts, yet still called into question the assertiveness in which she proclaimed her "truth."

Another believer used to frequent the forums in order to proclaim a particular stand about Bible translation. When a few of us publicly questioned his beliefs or "evidence", he would write some extremely long posts with "evidence" from secondhand, prejudiced sources. In fact, I received many emails and PMs that contained many, many long paragraphs from these prejudiced "sources." A meaningful conversation was out of the question, because I was obviously a "heretic" for embracing a particular "modern translation." Yet the emails persisted. I eventually had to place a block in my inbox because of these one-way conversations and emails, which were almost certainly meant to "save me" from the "error of my ways."

Most of the time, I tend to stay away from heated discussions. I've been on SermonIndex for several years, but there are individuals with far more comments than I. Yet while I don't write as often as I could, I still read many of the discussions that interest me. Yet one of the greatest dangers that I find in the Church is the act of loudly "proclaiming" what we feel to be TRUTH when we merely (no matter how certain we are) a DOCTRINAL PERSUASION.

Like previously stated, there are many controversial subjects that are discussed here. Each of us is entitled to our own beliefs that are formulated out of personal research and study of the Scriptures. There are truths that are unquestionable. They are included in the Word in places like Hebrews 6:1-2. Yet NO ONE has the authority to publicly dictate their perceptions of "truth" as if they were "the only ones that mattered." This is sometimes a problem on SermonIndex. A believer may feel completely convinced about a subject, but at what point does he/she have the right or authority to "shout out" the supremacy of his/her belief?

It is in these sort of threads that I feel inclined to introduce a well-meaning alternative. I often ask people to distinguish between fact and persuasion in controversial threads -- and to recognize that there are alternatives of belief. While there are some extremely good arguments for and against argumentive concepts like tithing, alcohol, music, sports, ideas about modesty, gender roles, marriage/divorce/remarriage, Bible prophecy, Scripture translations, politics, current events, etc... -- there are no opinions that are so vastly superior to others that we can rhetorically "spit" upon someone else's belief. In this I make no apology for any attempts to kindly "reason together" concerning issues that aren't firmly apparent from the Word of God.

If we want to avoid both wrongs we need to let the Lord search and put right our hearts. Then, even if we get excited about a matter and express ourselves too strongly, our true and honest heart will be what comes across, and we will be quick to apologise if the rudeness or wrong approach is pointed out.

I agree. We need to be quite transparent so that, even in heated discussions, our love and compassion is abundantly clear. It is a difficult task. We obviously feel strongly enough about a doctrine to consider it "true enough" to adhere to it. We wouldn't embrace it otherwise. As such, we often feel so certain about a particular subject that it is difficult for us to humble ourselves and allow our doctrinal beliefs to be considered "persuasion." If we could only find a way to show that our love supercedes our doctrinal disagreements! May God help us in our meekness and humility to be transparent enough that people will understand us, not by what is written, but by what goes unwritten!

:-)