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Theology

Jacob to Israel

E
Eli_Barnabas Aug 14, 2007

[i]Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, [b]Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel[/b]: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.[/i]

Jacob, the supplanter, after a dramatic struggle with the Lord God the night before he was to meet Esau, was renamed Israel, prevailer with God. This prophetic passage foreshadows Israel's, as a nation, final struggle with God and transformation by the sovereign hand of the Lord.

The Jewish people have not yet entered into the reality of this change of name. Scripture, when speaking prophetically of the nation's current condition, uses the term "Jacob", ex. "The time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7). Israel shall become "Israel" at the last, when their strength is spent and all that is left for them to do is cling to Christ and make strong supplications with weeping for the blessing; the very same blessing that through them the whole world has been blessed, yet they themselves have been on the outside due to the long night of unbelief and pride.

For nearly two thousand years Jacob has been wrestling with God, or more specifically "the man Christ Jesus", but when the night is nearly over and the morning is about to shine, God shall strike this nation's thigh and they will no longer be able to kick against the goads of the purposes of God. At the end of this age, Jacob shall indeed "prevail", but not because of their own doings, but because of God's sovereign grace and His eternal glory.

sermonindex Aug 14, 2007


Hello Eli,

I've been wondering how to reply in the other thread and not having had time, had concluded there is a constant conflict in the terminology of 'Israel' being transcribed to 'the Jewish people', which is not borne out by the terms of the Old Covenant except in general; neither is it borne out by how 'people' become saved - as when babies are born - one by one - or, that Jacob was [i]alone with God[/i] when He wrestled with Him. And so must we be.

So must any Israelite, Jew or gentile be. This is not negotiable. The 'nation' of Israel is a lot of [i]individual[/i] people who are related to each other by ethnicity or brotherhood, in a community of believers in a [i]lie[/i] (that Christ is not yet come).

I am trying to understand, therefore, what you and others would term those Israelites and Jews who [i]have[/i] believed in Christ as their Saviour and received the Holy Spirit - if the ones who have [i]not[/i], are [u]still[/u] being referred to and termed (by you and others) as the [i]only[/i] Israel in existence today?

(My belief is that neither Paul nor Peter would defend such a view, (that is, the prominence now given to 'old Israel' by some interpreters of end time prophecy,) since both described [i]the Church[/i] in terms of 'Israel' or 'not' 'gentile'. And both were [i]saved[/i] while 'old Israel' was occupied by an aggressor from which Jesus had not delivered them.)


Now, (as then) new generations (of Adam) are coming into being (Israelites, Jews and gentiles) individuals from amongst whom are being joined through faith in Christ to (new) Israel, by [u]circumcision of the heart[/u].

My [i]harping on[/i] this, is that there should be no separations within the true Church on the basis of [u]prior[/u] ethnic or religious persuasions, for the same reasons as Paul chided the Corinthians (1:1): Christ is not divided.

Perhaps, though, 'old' Israel, [i]was[/i] (divided) and this is a sign of the [u]in[/u]efficacy of 'the law' to bring men to spiritual health and eternal life.

(Those of Israelite descent or Jewish belief alive now, who do not turn to Christ will likewise be excluded from eternal salvation, as will gentile unbelievers.)


This is why Paul's words about us being sons through having received the Spirit of adoption which cries 'Father', is pivotal to perceiving not only the family of God, but the body of Christ on earth and in heaven, and to seeing that His dwelling amongst His people 'Israel', is one and the same picture as the temple not made with hands but with living stones, (which description Peter was very quick to pick up).

The Old Testament [u]is[/u] wonderful at giving us understanding of fine detail on many points which are fully fulfilled in Christ and His people Israel the Church, but I believe the New Testament (in His blood) and the writings of the first New Covenant believers - who interpreted much prophecy for us [u]in the light of Christ's exposition of it to them[/u] (following His resurrection) - surely [i]have to be[/i] the new platform from which we look both back and forward.


I would be very happy, personally, if we could find agreement about what [i]has[/i] happened in God's dealings with mankind, both through history before Christ, through Christ, and since Pentecost.

I am more ooncerned with 'now', 'while it is today' than what might [i]be[/i], with regard to God's bringing those of 'old' Israel who are last to come work in His vineyard.

E
Eli_Barnabas Aug 15, 2007

Linn,

Could you please explain to us Romans 11:25, what is the mystery of Israel?

[i]"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."[/i]

J
JaySaved Aug 15, 2007

Eli, I do see a future time of repentance and turning to Christ by a large number of Jewish people. This will not happen until the 'fullness of the Gentiles' or 'full number of Gentiles comes in'.

Here is what I have written in my own study notes: [indicates my notes]

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery [mystery means secret not previously revealed], brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening [by the will of God to bring salvation to the Gentiles] in part [the hardening is not designed to last forever but…] until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. [The full number of Gentiles refers to the total number of Gentile elect that will be called by God to salvation. When the complete number of God’s elect from the Gentiles are called by God and brought to salvation, the blindness and hardening on the Jews will be removed and the nation of Israel at that time will be saved and believe that Jesus is the Messiah. It is a commonly held view that this will occur at the Second Coming of Christ.] 26And so all Israel will be saved [that is to say, the Jews alive at the time the full number of the Gentiles are saved]

C
Christinyou Aug 15, 2007

Israel will never be son's of God. Israel cannot be son's of God. This is the mystery.
"Christ in you the Hope of Glory". National Israel will never have The incorruptable Seed if Christ birthed in them. It is not His Body Israel, it is His Body the Church. The Church is not Israel. Israel is God's chosen people, that is the children of Israel, earthly children and they will receive their earthly promises. They have no Heavenly promises, ours is we are already seated with Christ in heavenly places.

A Jew is only a Jew until he is born again, then he is a Christian, no longer a Jew. I am an Oklahoman, born in the U.S.A., I am also a Christian, that does not make me a U.S.American Oaky Christian. I am a Christ one, nothing else, when it comes to the Kingdom of God. Paul gave up all this and counted it all as dung for the high calling of Christ Jesus who has blessed us with all heavenly and spiritual blessing from the Father through and in the mystery, which is: "Christ in you the hope of Glory". It is not Christ in a Jew, or Christ in an American, or any other nationallity or any sect, or group, We are Christians, all else is dung. It is singular, "YOU".

God the Father will write His Word in Israel's heart and all those that are left on this earth living in the millennial reign of Christ on this earth, that is when Israel will receive all the earthly promises she has been given, but they will not be Born Again from above and called son's of the Living God and fellow heirs with Jesus Christ the the Father's Kingdom, which is heavenly.

In Christ: Phillip

E
Eli_Barnabas Aug 16, 2007

Dear Phillip,

With all due respect, all the gifts, promises and covenants which you currently enjoy were originally given to Israel and only because of their partial blinding you have now been accepted into the beloved, grafted into the commonwealth of Israel.

What covenant are we Christians enjoying? We boast, oh how we boast... We say, "The NEW Covenant is ours. Not that Old Covenant God made with that obstinate Israel, no, we aren't like them, and OUR covenant with God is not like theirs!"

How foolish we are to think that we are any better than they! Unbelieving Israel in fact [b]embodies[/b] mankind's rebellious nature against Jehovah. What are you truly like without the regeneration of the Spirit? Look at unbelieving Israel. That's what you are like. Do we seriously think we are being treated better than they, with "heavenly promises" which they won't partake, because we are better than they? How ignorant!

Oh Christian, to whom was the New Covenant originally given?

[i]Jer 31:31 [u]"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant [b]with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:[/b][/u]
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make [u][b]with the house of Israel[/b][/u]; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."[/i]

To ISRAEL was this promise made, not to Gentiles, though God always purposed to bless ALL the nations of the earth through them. As Gentile Christians, praise God that we have been grafted in to the Jewish promises, the Jewish covenants, the Jewish commonwealth. For to them "pertaineth" all of these, even the Messiah. (Romans 9:4-5)

Israel, the complete representation of sinful man rejecting a loving God, shall "all be saved", by the pure grace of our immutable God, not of works lest any man should boast, and Paul the Apostles tells us in wonderful anticipation: When Israel is saved, it shall be [b]life from the dead![/b]

[i]"For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen."[/i]

sermonindex Aug 16, 2007

dorcas said

neither is it borne out by how 'people' become saved - as when babies are born - one by one

nicely put...

or, that Jacob was alone with God when He wrestled with Him. And so must we be.

...this is like reading The Deeper Life by Tozer...

(Those of Israelite descent or Jewish belief alive now, who do not turn to Christ will likewise be excluded from eternal salvation, as will gentile unbelievers.)

So politically incorrect and scripturally sound that it [i]must[/i] be true.

As Vance Havner once said, "There's only two types of people in the world: Christians and everybody else."

sermonindex Aug 23, 2007


Linn,

Could you please explain to us Romans 11:25, what is the mystery of Israel?

Dear Eli,

I just want to let you know I have not forgotten about this question. Further, I've spent several hours writing around it, and deciding not to post. But it has been formative, and I expect to be able to offer some food for thought soon... but don't hold your breath please... ;-)

U
UniqueWebRev Aug 23, 2007

Everyone here is hovering so closely to what is actually true, but I think may be having some trouble describing the importance of the differences between Jacob and Israel.

Nor do I think I am capable of making those differences entirely plain, for it is a matter of covenents...only one of which is completely unconditional, and it is to the one family tree from Adam through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Christians, through whatever description or background, are of the original plan of God to redeem man through Jesus, but it being a spiritual redemption, heredity has no place in it.

Semites, through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob called Israel were chosen to hold the oracles of God, and to be a sign and a warning to the remainder of the earth that there is a God who requires belief and conduct according to His desire.

And consequently, He has promised there will be a remnant of Heriditary Israel that will see Him coming in His glory, will see His wounds, realize how blind they have been, and mourn as if they had killed their own son. Indeed, the Heriditary Israelites, by not seeking God through Jesus, have condemned innumerable of their family members to a dreadful Judgement, for they will not live to see Christ return, and having walked in unbelief, scarce even keeping the Law, which with faith and formal sacrifices, was a Jew's only way to surviving the Great White Throne Judgement, will survive only at the mercy of God, and only if God so chooses.

Christians are Spiritual Israel, through Jesus. Our walk is a personal matter, between ourselves and Jesus. Heredity plays no part in it, for God has only sons, and no grand-sons. You cannot inherit salvation through Jesus.

The remainders of the physical tribes of Israel that we call Jacob, is Israel only by heredity. Most walk in relative unbelief, and have for thousands of years, walking in a Law they cannot keep, but that still sets them apart as God's own.

Hereditary Israel has yet one week of years of wrath determined on them. It is the time of Jacob's trouble...the wrath of an angry God chastising a people who have ignored and disobeyed Him for far too long.

Those who survive the Tribulation, a judgement of wrath, on the unbelieving world, including whatever gentiles that survive the Devil's presence on earth, as is written in scripture, will see Christ, acknowledge Him, and live under His direct rule, repopulating the earth.

Lucifer is pent up for a thousand years, while those who survive to enter the Milleniumal period, will have not only the benefit of no temptation from the evil one, but also living in a just and merciful society.

Christians that survive the evil and persecution of Satan during that time will not enter the Millenium, but be caught up to meet Jesus in the air, along with the Christian dead of centuries past, just prior to the wrath of God as promised by Paul. What that wrath is specifically in Revelation, or when it occurs is not entirely clear, although the [i]harpazo[/i] or [i]rapiemur[/i], the catching away that we call the Rapture, appears to be just prior to the vials are poured out on the earth.

And at the end of a thousand years, Lucifer is released again, to tempt those that have no experience with his evil, and thus, God will yet again, sort out the sheep and the goats from all those who entered the Millenium as brand new believers, brought to belief by the actual presence of the Messiah.

Then comes the final Judgement. Spiritual Israel has already gone through the Judgement of the Lamb, or will have their names in the book of life, having given their hearts, minds, souls, and service to Jesus during the millenium.

And if they survive the testing of having Lucifer around to stir up rebellion against Jesus, and are still in faith at the end of the Millenium, Hereditary Israel will become a part of Spiritual Israel.

Others, Jew and Gentile of the entire creation that were not saved by faith, will face the Great White Thone Judgement, and then Jesus will restore and change the earth and the heavens, and all that are left of faith, from any covenenant or heriditary covenenant will then also become Spiritual Israel in full, entering into Eternity for whatever plans God has for us.

I look forward to that day, as should we all, when no one that we know is not truly of Israel.


Blessings,

Forrest

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