Toronto Airport Fellowship false manifestations.

Greg,I've read many things about the Toronto revival and wonder whether there is a true revival there. I don't profess to know as I haven't been there and don't know anyone who has been.I'm reminded of 1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Although I'm a charismatic, I'm troubled by all of these things. How do any of things glorify the risen Christ? That's not meant to be a rhetorical question and is a fair question to ask.I believe that spiritual gifts are meant, just like everything else God has given us, for His pleasure and His glory.When I think about the manifestations of gifts and miracles, I think about John the Baptist. He didn't manifest these miraculous gifts but he preached a pure word of God. I believe we need more people with this type of heart versus those who are looking for a "power" ministry.I'm certain that Smith Wigglesworth and some of the other great leaders in the charismatic movement would turn their ears and likely their noses to much of what is going on today in God's name. What greater miracle is there than a changed life, where someone has passed from death unto life?

I am Pentecostal, and strongly opposed to the abuses and falsehood of the Toronto and Laughing revivals and the Word of Faith movement. How dare professing Christians make a mockery of the Word of God like this. What a mockery of the Word of God and of the genuine power and gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is tragic to see people deceived like this. Wake up, body of Christ, and study the Scriptures!!! Movements like this have done great damage to the reputation of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement, as well. I don't know how many times I've heard excesses like these used as an example of all of Pentecostalism.

I think most of the people here understand the distinction between the Toronto mess and Pentacostalism (and perhaps even the distinction between Charismatics and old-time Pentecostals). Many of the speakers recorded in the sermons are Pentacostal or Wesleyan.In case someone doesn't though: I second that the excesses of those claiming to be part of the Charismatic/Pentecostal movements do not reflect the "real" Pentecostal movement. Remember, Satan tries to defeat truth by imitation: close enough to draw people into falsehood with what looks like the truth, close enough (sometimes) to turn people away from the truth with falsehood.I wouldn't consider myself Pentacostal, personally, but I know a number of them and have attended several Pentacostal services/meetings and have never detected any damning heresy or demonic manifestation (they were pretty decently behaved, actually, and far more conservative in many areas than the "normal" churches I know). It's been something like 100 years since Azusa Street, and the movement's in dire need of true Holy Ghost revival, but there's still a good number of them soldiering along.We need a new wineskin, though, a Biblically sound one. As far as I know, God's never revived a movement twice.

I know folks here know the difference between the two. :) I mentioned it because I am Baptist-turned-Pentecostal, and the Baptists I know frequently use excesses like these as "proof" that all Pentecostals are unsolid and weird.

hello there, i could not help but notice your post on the "torronto Blessing" are all negative. I could also not help to notice that it appears that not one of you have been there. It's easy to jusge from a distance isnt it? never really gettign to know the hearts of others, feeling like you have it all together and just knowing that you are right. i have been to toronto and in fact i went to there ministry school and i fealt such a love of the Father there for His children and a desire to bring HIS CHILDREN closer to himself. I am not going to sit here and naivley believe that TACF does everything correctly but i am also not going to waist my time pointing out everything that is wrong with people. you know you can use scripture out of context to prove whatever you want to, people have been doing it since the scriptures have been written almost two thousand years ago. Here is something that is not taken out of context, if you have a problem with your brother bring it to him personally and if he dosnt listen then bring it before the body. since none of you have been to TACF maybe it would be better not to talk crap about TACF in public forum. bless you all and i pray that you're relationship with the Father increases and that his love touches your hearts. andy

Well brother with all due respect you are alternately right and wrong here. Wrong in that it is easy to make a comment in regards to just one post. This is a topic that has come up here often in the past and doing a search through the site will bear this out. A caution needs to be sounded here. I have noticed that often someone who is not familiar with this site will make a reply without first having got a feel to the broader scope of topics and issues that have and/or are being discussed.In this instance, if you were to go back through some of the older postings you would find that there are actually quite a few who have been there and their respective thoughts as you yourself have mentioned. As far as the excess's go, we had better discuss these things regardless if we have been there or not. There is no denying that these things have taken place and they are a blight and a reproach to the name of Jesus Christ. We would be fools not to bring these things into the light.You are right in using some caution though. From what I can gather and often seems to be the case, this very well may have started off as a true move of the Holy Spirit and veered off into all kinds of wackiness. There are some fair treatments I believe by a few, one being Art Katz that I recall here: Holiness or "Blessing"This is not a case of just throwing the baby out with the bath water, just the bath water. Certainly the Lord can and does use all things and I am sure that there is as in your case "i fealt such a love of the Father there for His children and a desire to bring HIS CHILDREN closer to himself." and others who love the Lord who were touched in this way. But this does not validate everything else.I am not going to sit here and naivley believe that TACF does everything correctly but i am also not going to waist my time pointing out everything that is wrong with people.This is not about " pointing out everything that is wrong with people" but about rooting out error. It is the mixture that is what spoils. If these things had been dealt with when they first reared their ugly heads who knows what may have become of this. The proof is in the pudding, there is no denying the mockery, the ridiculousness, the outright sickening things that are shown in these clips. These things have been brought to their knowledge and what did they do about it? Perhaps being that you have some association with them you could tell us if things have changed or if they have denounced any of this. I have yet to hear it. In fact I believe that much of this is older material and I actually was a bit surprised to see this come up again, is this still going on? Anybody out there know?So I hope you do stick around Andrew and get a feel for the site, there is a lot of great messages and great discussions here in this forum. As a whole we are not interested in beating anybody up, well maybe demons and their influence, but to just walk in truth and if need be exposing error. We love all the brethren too much to not point out where they are being mislead.Would love to hear more of your thoughts.

sermonindex wrote:To be frankly honest with you brother, I am seeking to be Baptised with the Holy Spirit for service, I want a revelation of the depth of God's love so that I may be filled with the fulness of God. There is a holy-disatisfication within me and a despertness to seek God. But that does not imply that I go out and accept everything and what everyone is saying is what God is doing. I am seeking Him in the closet and each day goes by and God is blessing me and bringing me closer to Him and His purposes for my life.Its a desperate time brother and this requires desperate actions. The Church needs to seek Him as never before. Extreme situations require extreme measures. God will show Himself strong in those who seek Him with all their heart. Satan is very active in all this and He knows that those who are AWAKE in the Church are trying to fetch strength from God, He is offering many easy roads and substitutes which are not necessarily from Him but ARE not God's best. The disciples were filled with the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them in the room. But they didn't go out in that revelation and walk in God. THEY NEEDED the fulness of God, an overwhelming enduement of God's power and a lostness in the purposes of God. Church seek this!Amen, brother! What a revival we would see if every believer in North America would begin to earnestly seek God and desire nothing but Him. If we would desire the real power of the Spirit to enable us to witness (Acts 1:8), rather than chasing after the latest manifestation or else simply denying the work of the Spirit altogether. We need the genuine power of the Holy Spirit in each of our lives, and we need to seek God for it!

I'd like to refer to J Edwin Orr and Charles Finney, who both cited that revivals can be prone to excesses. Orr mentioned reports that the Welsh revival promoted promiscuity, and bankrupcy. Upon investigation, the promiscuity claim was based on 1 instance, and the bankrupcy was the result of taverns closing down. There are a collection of references to "excesses" at the start of the thread. Realise that these are from a "move of God" that has been going for over 10 years. I am not saying that this is a genuine move of God, simply stating that we need to be wise in our interpretation of events taking place in the body of christ.

Hello brothers,\tFirst let me greet you properly in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Secondly let me say how excited I am that we can have discussions hopefully stirring one another on towards the prize and even more so as the day draws near.\tIt would be easy for me not to respond to your post about my post and just move on with my life but I feel as though that I would miss out on an opportunity to grow. My apologies to anyone I might have offended because of my lack of research, I was simply responding to a great number of negative post about Toronto in a seemingly one sided attack.\tI do however agree whole heartedly with your perception of a church any church new or big or small, organized or house that does not focus on the blessing of the Fathers heart and the Will of the Father. And I also believe that churches world wide share problems big and small mostly because they do not realize who they are in Christ. By that I plainly mean that they do not understand that they died on the cross with Christ and that they are new creation because Christ resides in them just like resided in Mary his mother in the womb.\tNow saying that whilst in Toronto I did notice that there was a lack of wanting to grow and move beyond the manifestations into the Manifestor, by that I mean getting deep into Christ and the Father. The manifestations in themselves are fine if they draw you closer to God, if not then they are doing nothing more than ministering to the flesh and who really cares about the dead flesh anyways it’s time has come and passed. But anything can minister to the flesh whether it be through physical sensation (like Toronto) or like fine oration (Pentecostal churches), that is not to be critical but it is to point it out and to make no distinction between organizations.\tI love church history and I am intrigued to say the least by the healing revivals that took place between the years of 1850-1950 starting of course with Mr Dowie and completing it’s course in 1954 when God spoke to Paul Cain that he was running a rat race and even if he won the race he was still a rat. It is my belief that those revivals would have kept going strong until the end of the age IF the ministers involved had had a revelation of the fathers heart for themselves and IF the body as a whole would have grasped a hold of the fact that GOD IS NO RESPECTOR OF MEN and that the anointing that William Branham had was available to all because all have Christ in them.\tBeing in Toronto first hand and being there during the Gold teeth deal I can honestly say that some it was crap and some of it was real. Some of it actually drove people to see how real and how much the Father loved them and others they just wanted to see a magic act, but nothing would’ve changed there hearts anyways. Now to answer the question did Toronto ever rebuked anyone I can say yes, and her name is Sylvania something (can’t remember her last name), she was the woman from Columbia that had gold dust falling out of her hair, she prayed for me and I discerned that she loved Jesus. Toronto was more focused on the fact that the metal falling out of her hair wasn’t Gold. The fact is they didn’t know what it was. \tMy biggest problem with Toronto and all organized churches for that matter is, that the congregations want the leaders to do everything for them(20% of the church does 80% of the work) and with the leadership is that when somebody actually hears to do something from God they don’t want them to do it unless the church can regulate it. That is what happened in Toronto and that is why the blessing never went out into the streets and that is why the congregation never got passed the child stage. \tSo you guys are right and I totally agree with your observation of the church on many stands, but I see no reason to have 8 negative posts in a row about why it is wrong. God bless you and keep seeking HIM I know we will see heaven and I hope that we can carry on discussions that spur one another on towards the prize. Thank you so much for providing a place where people can go and get sermons. It has blessed me immensely I know that you guys are going to be a resource center in the upcoming move of God. Bless your ministry. Andy\t

Interesting reading on the balance required by people involved in the "moves of God" can be found in Michael L Browne's "From Holy Laughter to Holy Fire", and Rick Joyner's Vision Trilogy "The Final Quest", "The Call", and "The Sword and the Shield".Also, look toward Brownesville AOG in Florida, as this was hailed as the "move of God", coupled with the "correct human reponse" of repentance and obedience.

Interesting reading on the balance required by people involved in the "moves of God" can be found in Michael L Browne's "From Holy Laughter to Holy Fire", and Rick Joyner's Vision Trilogy "The Final Quest", "The Call", and "The Sword and the Shield".Also, look toward Brownesville AOG in Florida, as this was hailed as the "move of God", coupled with the "correct human reponse" of repentance and obedience.The question is not one of balance, but doctrine. The problem with TACF and what eventually happened in Pennsecola is not that they are out of balance, but that they are in serious error. The Word of God doesn't say guard our "balance" but to guard the trust. The trust is the truth of the Gospel that has been perverted in false movements. I would not consider Rick Joyner anyone worth reading. He's a modern day gnostic. A good article can be found on this site:http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j09.htmlThis site does not exist to promote men like this; it doesn't exist to promote men at all as a matter of fact. Instead it exists to proclaim and propagate the "faith once for all handed down to the saints" And Rick Joyner preaches a different Jesus and a different gospel.I am curious as to why you would try to lead us to such spurious teachings when we have such a rich treasure of truth that is alive to listen to in the download section. I would encourage you to download and listen to these sermons:A Gospel Of SlaughterA Warning to an Evil Generation Another JesusMinisters of Laciviousness These sermons are contending for the faith. This is only a small sample of the excellent material that can be heard from this site on these subjects.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

when one associates himself with any movement (ie morning star, campus crusade) he runs the risk of pulling his identity from that movement(denomination, house church) and to cease being focused on the one that truly matters. Mens kingdoms become more important than Gods. Keeping the movement/denomination going is more important than loving the king. If we truly are going to be christ like(the true gospel) then we must keep our eyes on Christ and HIS AGENDA. You know when i left my church to join a house church 5 years ago my pastor flipped out on me because i was going into a place of no boundaries. He said that just because there were problems with the current church I shouldnt turn my back on it. I have had the opportunity now over the past 5 years to ponder those words and i had to look through History and the bible to see if any such times of changes exsisted and i believe i have found two examples. first being peter and john and who out and out disobeyed the Pharisees(acts 5:28) when they preached jesus in the temple. second Martin Luthers 95 thesis, if we should sit in submission to the current leadership how come we are not all under the Pope right now? i have read the criticsms of rick joyner and the "kansas city prophets" and i will weigh them out carefully. i ask that you do the same with my thoughts. We do need to weigh everything against the word and trust the HOLY SPIRIT to guide us to truth. BTW a great book on david and saul is Tale of Three Kings by gene edwards(it's more like an allegory than a historical document).