"A Christian will sin every day until we are perfected in heaven"

First off, I do not want this thread to be an argument about "sinless perfection" etc. like what went around a few weeks ago.

Secondly, I think the main thrust of this endless argument between Christian is misunderstanding of the "victorious life". Holiness people think the "not yet" people promote grace regardless; the "not yet" camp think Holiness camp teaches justification by sanctification or "sinless perfection", not drawing the proper distinction between sinless perfection and what Wesley calls Christian perfection. Except for cults, emergents, and fringe groups, not many people believe either of the extremes commonly accused.

So, that being said, I want SCRIPTURE, not your personal dissertation, that teaches we as Christians will "with knowledge" sin every day until he returns, even though it is against our will.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye
be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

How in the world can we be perfect? Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

It is the Christ in you that is Perfect and that is who the Father see's when he looks at His children in Christ.

This is the truth of scripture, not a cult teaching.

Perfect before the Father, In Christ: Phillip

Just read the book of 1 John honestly (and do some research on 1:8).

1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [Commandments such as Matthew 5:48, "Therefore be perfect as your Father in heaven in perfect."]

[b]2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.[/b]

2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[b]2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.[/b]

3:4-9 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

[b]4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.[/b]

4:21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

[b]5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.[/b]

ect, ect.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Do you sin, Nile?

Krispy

The short answer: [b]NO!!![/b]

I'll answer possible refinements of the question for clariy.

1. Are you sinning right now?
No. =)

2. Do you plan on sinning again?
No.

3. Do you anticipate sinning again?
No.

4. Is there any commandment of God that you know you do not keep?
No.

5. Do you sin every day?
No.

6. Is your conscience perfectly pure?
Yes.

7. Have you repented of all known sin and conformed your life to the revelation give to you?
Yes.

8. Have you sinned in the past?
Yes.

9. Have you sinned in the past month?
Yes I have unfortunately. This is not a light matter. Within the past month I have rebelled against God and fallen from Grace. I have since repented and turned back to God. There are many causes for fall like this...my faith is new, I am immature, I lack wisdom, I am surrounded by ungodliness, and I still learning the fundamentals of God. Once my sure foundation is laid, the likelyhood of failling away is much much less.

10. Do you love God with all your heart and love your neighboor as yourself, thus fulfilling the law and being free from sin?
Yes.

How would you answer to these questions?

Nile

Edit:
Thinking on the purspose of this thread, I'm going to make a new thread for this discussion.

Funny that someone should quote 1 John so extensively but miss the crux of the first chapter:

[b]8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/b]

Iansmith, that was not the "crux" of the chapter but the springboard.
Once one has admitted that one has sin, one can be cleansed from all sin. Not just judicially, but actually.
Krispy, how is your pride?

That's all I can contribute. There are a myriad of scriptures that say that one should not sin and has the ability to not sin (and the duty to not sin), and what actions to take if one happens to sin. But there is not ONE scripture in the entire text that says you will sin every day of your life, saved or unsaved.

iansmith wrote:
Funny that someone should quote 1 John so extensively but miss the crux of the first chapter

I see a much different crux; not only of the first chapter, but of the whole Bible. Read about the traditional view of 1 John 1:8.

Since the matter was brought up, here is an article on 1 John 1:8 for those more interested:
[url=http://www.stopsinning.net/1_John.htm]http://www.stopsinning.net/1_John.htm[/url]

jimdied2sin wrote:
Nile-

We have talked before on the *sinless perfection* threads. Do you walk in brokneness realizing that even now, with no known sin, that God can (and I pray will) expose things in you as He continually transforms you (things that currently exist in you and are sin because they miss the mark of Gods perfection but you are not aware of)... curious.

In Christ - Jim

Thanks for the question Jim.

I do believe that God can and will continually expose things in me that are not in accord with His perfect will, His ultimate goal...which is that I be like Christ, not in nature only, but also in stature (Christ GREW in stature - He did not grow in nature).
As for brokenness, the Lord doesn't let me walk otherwise.

In Christ,
Nile

Yes I have unfortunately. This is not a light matter. Within the past month I have rebelled against God and fallen from Grace. I have since repented and turned back to God. There are many causes for fall like this...my faith is new, I am immature, I lack wisdom, I am surrounded by ungodliness, and I still learning the fundamentals of God. Once my sure foundation is laid, the likelihood of falling away is much much less.

Brother, the only mention of a person falling from grace in the Scripture is when one looks to the law as a means of justification.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, [b]whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[/b]

Brother if you are looking to yourself, and your deeds to justify you before God, you are in danger of casting away Christ and His justifying work for you. If indeed you are doing this, you might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church. Their teaching is justification by sanctification, or that one needs to work in order to justify themselves before God.

But may I ask you, what work can man possibly offer to God that would be acceptable when even our most spiritual deeds are tainted with the death of our flesh?

If brother you have faith in the crucified and risen Saviour, this faith was a gift to you, and as such you are justified before God by Christ's merits and not your own. Rejoice in this, leap for joy that the One who rightly could have destroyed every single one of us has shown mercy and grace through Christ. Do not trample under foot the Cross of Christ and count it as nothing, for to do so is to negate that work.

As Paul said to the Romans-
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: [b]that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.[/b]

Notice who is the justifier, not man, but God. He justifies based upon the fact that Christ has been offered in the place of the sinner and has made a propitiation of the wrath due to them.

Blessings to you brother