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Understanding the Impact of an Emergent China on the Globe (audio) ...

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Rahman Aug 29, 2007

China's emergent thrusts into capitalism and quest for super-powerdom is on a collision course with everything Western ...

An irony is they seem to be doing (on a more massive and escalated scale) much of the same self serving dastardly things to gain power, influence, and economic advantage as Great Britain and America has done in the past ... Often what the author decries about Godless China sounds like sour grapes from a perspective of an aledgedly God fearing West who've already had their turn at raping the earth and enslaving the poor, and now are bemoaning that the Chinese aren't playing fair ... Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, except the Chinese don't pretend Jesus Christ has anything to do with their taking advantage ...

[b]CHRISTIANITY: Abused for Power, Personal Purpose & Prosperity ... SI Thread[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14398&forum=35#111122


Bottom line is China is pushing an already strained envelope, and in a world far more militarily dangerous and commodity tightening - especially when it comes to oil, of which they are gobbling up futures that threaten Western gas tanks and heating ...

i bought this book on audio (audible.com), and find it to be politically, economically and statistically very interesting and eye opening, especially in light of what American consumerism of cheap Chinese products enable them to do, all the while our pointing fingers at them as 'the problem" ... Our family outings to Wal-Mart help the Chinese government purchase and R&D more sophisticated weapontry to rival the West, such as the massive deep water Navy they're building now to counteract America's ... i love the way the author suggests toward the end of the interview how we need to give the Chinese a few ultimatums to make them toe our line, when they are the chief buyers of our Treasuries and hold $1.5 trillion of actual dollars which if they decided to dump would send us into hyper-inflation and destroy the dollar completely ... What does scripture say about the "borrower"? ...

[b]The Coming China Wars: Audio Interview[/b]
http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2007/Navarro.html

For me, when it comes to nations and world events, all roads lead to Armageddon, and i just find it fascinating to see how we're incrementally getting there ...

Who'da ever thought that China would become such a massive presence on the world stage? ...


Blessings in Him who has what seems like total chaos, under His full control! ...


PS - There are so many faith shaking things happening in our world today i feel led of Holy Spirit to point out this faith inspiring sermon ...

[b]In One Hour Everything is Going to Change ... SI Sermon[/b]
http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID16114.mp3

Praise God from whom all blessings flow, especially for the ones we don't see as such ...

[b]1John.5[/b]
[4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: [b]and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.[/b]

[b][color=3366CC]VICTORY IS IN OUR FAITH! ... NO MATTER WHAT SAINTS ... LETS KEEP OUR FAITH![/color][/b]

R
rookie Aug 30, 2007

RUSSIA'S UNDENIABLE WAR PREPARATIONS
by J. R. Nyquist

Since 1998 I have publicly warned of Russia’s war preparations. The idea of preparing for nuclear war is absurd for most Americans, because the idea of nuclear war makes no sense in a consumer society. However that may be, Russia’s war preparations were as undeniable then as they are today. And Russia is not a consumer society. In the late 1990s Russia was refurbishing huge nuclear war bunkers and building underground cities. The only purpose such bunkers and cities could serve is in relation to a future nuclear war. For a country that was supposedly broke to be spending its precious resources on something so expensive, so far out of the way of “normal” expectations, seemed inexplicable. “Oh well,” people would shrug. “The Russians are used to doing this sort of thing. It gives them psychological comfort. Let them do what they want. It needn’t trouble us.” The public missed the fact, however, that Russia was continuing to violate arms control agreements. It was not admitting to all the nuclear warheads it possessed, and was not reliably disposing of them. It was developing new, deadly, biological and chemical weapons.

Why in the midst of peace, a few short years after the end of the Cold War, were the Russians adhering to this insane path? Were they anticipating a future war?

The answer must be yes. And the answer continues to be yes. In the 1990s Russia forged an alliance with China that involved a growing series of joint military exercises. Why would the Russians do this? Why would they seek to develop a joint military capability that would link Russian missile power with Chinese manpower? For over a decade the Russians have been providing the Chinese with technology and weapons. This is not merely a commercial transaction, as some would insist. These transactions are carefully considered strategic steps. Since the mid-1990s, Russia and China have initiated joint-armaments programs that further solidified their military partnership. It is obsolete thinking to suppose Russia and China are enemies. It must be understood, as a practical matter, that Russia and China are underdog powers locked in a struggle for primacy with the United States. The only sensible strategy, if Russia and China expect to emerge on top, is to unite against the Americans. And that is what the two countries have been doing for the past decade. 

A week ago today, on August 17, the Russians and Chinese conducted joint military exercises on Russian soil, in the southern Ural Mountains. These coincided with strategic air operations involving Russian nuclear bombers. The combination of ground exercises with nuclear bomber exercises is a characteristic of Soviet nuclear war theory, which holds that troops must be used to follow up nuclear strikes. President Putin and China’s President Hu Jintao watched the exercises while holding a summit in Bishkek (the capital of former Soviet Kyrgyzstan). While China and Russia insist that their preparations aren’t aimed at any specific power, only a simpleton would believe them. (I am sad to acknowledge that many Americans, in this regard, are simpletons.)

Last week, in an obvious upgrading of nuclear war readiness, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the resumption of long-range nuclear bomber patrols that had previously been suspended in 1992. “I made the decision to restore flights of Russian strategic bombers on a permanent basis,” said Putin. “Combat duty has begun.” For some reason, Americans cannot digest Putin’s statement or his decision to resume bomber patrols. Why is this happening? Well, we say to ourselves, there is no reason other than the peculiar psychology of the Russians. President Bush has not put U.S. strategic bombers on patrol. And why should he? Russia isn’t our enemy. We are all friends. We are all economic partners and allies in the war against terror. 

In Washington the State Department spokesman, Sean McCormack, responded to the Russian announcement of permanent strategic bomber patrols by saying, “It’s interesting. We certainly are not in the kind of posture we were with what used to be the Soviet Union. It’s a different era. If Russia feels as though they want to take some of these old aircraft out of mothballs and get them flying again, that’s their decision.”

It’s as if the Russian military had resumed stamp collecting or archery. There is no strategic alarm, no threat, no difficulty and no discomfiture. Let them play with their obsolete toys. We are living in a new era, and these activities no longer trouble us. The Cold War ended and the animosity between the great powers is gone. Say good-bye to it. Any evidence to the contrary is not evidence. We’re living in “a different era.” Anyone who doesn’t know this, even if they are the president of the Russian Federation, is out-of-step. One might imagine Washington’s reaction to a Russian missile strike against U.S. targets. “It’s interesting,” the State Department would purr. “This is not the sort of missile strike we would have expected from the Soviet Union. Of course, it’s a different era. If Russia feels that they want to launch some old, useless missiles, that’s their decision.” 

Our lack of imagination, our inability to grasp our enemy’s thought process, leads us to dismiss what is obvious. The Russians are getting ready. Why isn’t the American side responding? Why aren’t the Americans getting ready? We have been seduced by a series of comforting illusions. We are also absorbed in a struggle against Islamic terrorism (only we are at pains to admit the “Islamic” aspect of it). The American shopping mall regime produces stupefaction and complacency. The regime is predicated on economic optimism and entertainment. This optimism is about to be shattered. The Russians know this is going to happen, and they are preparing even as we fail to prepare. 

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rookie Aug 30, 2007

I forget where I read this in the last few days...

Russia stopped delivery of natural gas to European countries last week for a short time to bring about a change in attitude. I forget what the issue was, but Europe capitulated to the Russians.

In Christ
jeff

I
IRONMAN Aug 30, 2007

brethren
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Gog and Magog are stirring...Europe is being held hostage while we're between Iraq and a hard place...indeed these are rumours of wars and wars...as bro Rahman has been saying of late, indeed our Victory is our Faith. May we hold fast to Jesus.

Grace and Peace are ours in Him.AMEN.

I
iansmith Aug 30, 2007

Let's take them Jesus, before Jesus brings them to us.

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Rahman Aug 30, 2007

You know i'm really beginning to think that Russia is satan's favorite nation ... There has to be something way back in Gog and Magog's history that's a clue to why, because they seem so wholly susceptable to satan's leading - especially when it comes to the hatred of the Jew ... i mean this is the same nation/people who are so readily mis-led by satan again to rise up against the holy city even after the Millenium when the dragon is released one final time ...

i watched this program on BookTV a couple of weeks ago (it's not watchable on web yet) ...

Foxbats Over Dimona: The Soviets' Nuclear Gamble in the Six-Day War
http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=8353&SectionName=History&PlayMedia=No

Where the authors Isabella Ginor and Gideon Remez argue with new info that the Soviet Union was heavily involved in the lead-up to Israel's Six Day War with its neighbors in 1976. The authors contend that the Soviet Union believed Israel was intent on acquiring nuclear weapons and intended to destroy the Israeli nuclear program by joining Egypt and Syria in provoking Israel into a preemptive attack.

Very interesting the new info they present (altho a little hard to dicepher thru their thick accents) ... i'm sure there are those who'll pooh-pooh this as but further Israeli paranoia, but at least to me there seems definitely something going on between the devil and Gog that's way past dismissing ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus our victory! ...

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iansmith Aug 30, 2007

Satan's favorite nation... that is the most... honestly... where do you get off with this kind of craziness?! I'm starting to believe that America is Satan's favorite country, and I could find just as many reasons to bolster my claim. Let's stop pointing fingers and start preaching the Gospel.

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iansmith Aug 30, 2007

The population of China is 1,321,851,888 according to the CIA World Factbook.

The population of Russia is 141,377,752

The population of the United States is 301,139,947

***

According to the World Factbook the percentage of Christians per country (which represent their own country's official census):

China: Christian 3%-4%

Russia: Orthodox 15-20%, other Christian 2%

USA: Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%

***

Now most experts on the Chinese housechurch movement would put the percentage at over 10% of the Chinese population, and even some Chiense government officials have validated these numbers in recent comments, but for the sake of my illustration I will stick to the offical party line:

[b]China[/b] 4% of 1,321,851,888 = 52,874,076
(After 50 years of persecution and the highest number of Christian martyrs in the history of the world)

[b]Russia[/b] 22% of 141,377,752 = 31,103,104
(After 70 years of persecution and the destruction of all of the churches in Russia)

[b]USA[/b] 76% of 301,139,947 = 228,866,360
(Laodecia)

But if you believe what AW Tozer said about the American church, then we have to greatly modify that number. If we use Tozer's 10% the realistic American Christian population is more like: 22,886,636

China: 52,874,076; Russia: 31,103,104; USA: 22,886,636

It's certainly going to be interesting to see the different groups of people around the thrown of God when we're all called to see Him!

I dare say we're going to be in for a shock.

I
iansmith Aug 30, 2007

Maybe now that Russia and China are gaining more political and economical power they'll send us some missionaries!

I
IRONMAN Aug 31, 2007

bro Ian

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Satan's favorite nation... that is the most... honestly... where do you get off with this kind of craziness?! I'm starting to believe that America is Satan's favorite country, and I could find just as many reasons to bolster my claim. Let's stop pointing fingers and start preaching the Gospel.

i don't think bro Rahman's view is as unfounded as you may think given what he said. in scripture, many nations have risen up against Israel but Gog and Magog, that is Russia, appear quite conspicuously in 2 separate incidents involving an attack on Israel. in Ezekiel 37-8 they lead an attack of not only them but some Arab nations in a coalition which God wipes out save a sixth of them. This is against a newly saved Israel resettled in the land and at peace...this restoration is said of God as being such that all the nations will know that He did it. that this coalition would form against this says these people are susceptible to his wiles in a weird way.They appear also after the Millenial Reign doing the same thing...that the same nation can be used of the enemy against Israel, though this time Israel comprising of all believers. The enemy is bound for a 1000 yrs unable to influence anyone, but men will still fall away, highlighting once and for all the total depravity of man and his inability to saved himself apart from the Mercy of God. then when the enemy is loosed, he goes straight for Gog and Magog again...of course a multitude of people from other nations will follow but Gog and Magog, that is Russia will be chief...again. that doesn't strike you?

we know America has much influence on what happens in the world and much iniquity comes from this place and so it is a favourite of the enemy in that sense also.

the only way our is through Jesus.

Grace and Peace are ours in Him.AMEN.

P
pastorfrin Aug 31, 2007

The Coming War of Gog and Magog, an Islamic Invasion?

Jennifer Rast

Contender Ministries

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ezekiel 38 through 39 tells of a future invasion of Israel by a vast coalition of nations that surround it. As we read the headlines in the newspapers of today, and witness the conflict in the Middle East, it's not hard to imagine that this invasion prophesied over 2600 years ago, could be fulfilled in our lifetime. Ezekiel 36-37 predicts a gathering of the Jews to the nation of Israel, which will be followed by this massive invasion. For 19 centuries the Jewish people were scattered throughout the world, and until May 14, 1948 there was no nation of Israel to invade. With the nation of Israel now a reality, the stage seems set for the war that will usher in the tribulation and the rise of the Antichrist; a war that will end with the destruction of Israel's enemies by God Himself, and lead to the signing of a peace treaty with the Antichrist.

As you read Ezekiel 38 and 39, it isn't just the creation of the nation of Israel that makes this prophecy seem likely to be fulfilled in the near future. The nations that God tells us will form this coalition against Israel seem more likely now than perhaps ever before to form just such an alliance. To understand the prophecies of Ezekiel about this future invasion, it's important to understand who the players will be.

There are many theories as to who will join in this future invasion of Israel. Before going through a list of the individual nations, I'll list some of the more common theories you'll hear when studying the prophecies from Ezekiel 38.

Ezekiel 38:1-6 The word of the Lord came to me; Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army - your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops - the many nations with you.'

1. Hashemite Kingdom Theory: The Islamic Nations will come against Israel either by an Iraqi-led, Jordanian led, or Turkish led coalition. The enemy from the north refers to the areas of Syria, Turkey, and Iraq. These Islamic nations make up the lands occupied by Magog, Gomer, Togarmah, Meshech and Tubal.

2. Caucus Theory: Gog and Magog are the Arab nations in an alliance with the Muslim republics of the former Soviet Union. This theory leaves out most of Russia, and includes only the southern part.

3. All Europe theory: Gog and Magog are the sons of Japeth thus the originators of the European races. Gog and Magog therefore indicates all of Europe. This is not a widely held theory and I could find little support for it.

4. Russian Theory: The Hebrew word 'rosh' in verse 3 is identified with Russia, 'Tubal' with Tiblisi or Tobolsk and 'Meshech' with Moscow, therefore Gog and Magog refers to Russia. This is one of the most commonly held views and is based on a different interpretation of the Hebrew word Rosh (used as a noun rather than adjective), similarities in the pronunciation of words, and the Greek translation of Rosh referring to a tribe of people found in what is now Russia.

5. Indo-European Theory: Gog and Magog include the nations descending from Japheth: Russia, the Caucasus(Turkey), Iraq, and the Islamic republics of Central Asia. The coalition is an alliance of Arab nations, Muslim republics, Georgia, southern Russia and the Black sea area.

These are some of the theories you will find if you do any research into the prophecies of Ezekiel 38. You may also find interpretations that are a combination of these, and in fact, I tend to find more evidence for a version of the Indo-European and Caucacus Theory.

Before looking at the participants of this invasion in more detail, it's important to understand that the war described in Ezekiel 38 is not the same as the war that will come at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist and establish his millennial kingdom. How do we know this? The war at the end of the tribulation, known as Armageddon, is a world war. Revelation tells us that this battle will involve all nations. The war described in Ezekiel includes specific nations that invade Israel. Also, Armageddon is at the climax of the tribulation, while the war described in Ezekiel comes well before then.

Ezekiel 38:1-7 gives 10 names as participants in the invasion of Israel that will follow the regathering of the Jews to their homeland. First mentioned, is the land of Magog. The most common identity for Magog is in Central Asia. The Jewish historian Josephus said, "Magog founded the Magogians, called Scythians by the Greeks. Scythians were a nomadic tribe who inhabited the ancient territory from Central Asia across the southern part of ancient Russia." Today this area is inhabited by the former Soviet Republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and possibly northern parts of Afghanistan. All of these nations that make up the land of Magog have one thing in common - Islam. Militant Islam has been on the rise in these countries since the fall of the Soviet Union, when Islam no longer had to be practiced secretly. Radical Islamic groups such as the Islamic Renaissance Party, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islam are working to reunite central Asian nations and ultimately the entire Muslim world. It is from this part of the world that a leader will arise to bring together a great coalition of nations to invade Israel.

Probably the most debated verse is Ezekiel 38:3. There are two main views on the identity of the Nations God is referring to in this verse. I'll list both here, and let the reader decide which sounds most reasonable.

Rosh as Russia

Some versions of the Bible translate the Hebrew word 'rosh' in verse 3 as a noun referring to a place in Russia. The least credible support for this view is that Rosh sounds like the modern-day name Russia and Meshech sounds like Moscow. In this translation they treat rosh as a proper name. The Greek translation translates Rosh as the proper name Ros. Because the ancient Sarmations were known as the Ras, Rashu, and Rus and inhabited Rasapu which is now Southern Russia, some feel this verse points to Russia as the prince of Rosh. Another support sited for this view is that verse 6 and 15 say the invasion will come from remote parts of the north, and Russia is more remote.

Rosh as chief

Other versions of the Bible translate 'rosh' as an adjective. The argument here is that in the Massoretic text the words 'chief prince' carry the accents Tiphha and Zaqeph-gadol. The Tiphha appears under the resh of the Hebrew word 'rosh'; the Zaqeph-gadol appears on top of the sin of the Hebrew word 'nish'. The Tiphha to the right, underneath the initial consonant of the world 'rosh', or chief, is prepositive and does not mark the tone syllable. The world 'nish' or prince has the accent Zaqeph-gadol which is disjunctive and indicates a pause. So, verse three would read:

"Behold, I am against thee, o Gog, the prince, {pause} chief of Meshech and Tubal"

Rather than:

"Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal."

Here 'rosh' is translated head or chief as it is 423 other times in the Old Testament.

In short, if you believe 'rosh' should be translated as a proper noun you may find the interpretation that Russia will be a part of this coalition more reasonable. If you believe 'rosh' should be an adjective here, you need only concern yourself with who Meshech and Tubal are. I tend to have a problem with the "it sounds like Russia" theory, and find the translation of rosh as an adjective more believable, but to each his own.

Meshech and Tubal in verses 2 and 6, were the names of the 6th and 5th sons of Japheth, the son of Noah (Gen. 10:2). Ezekiel 27:13 also mentions Meshech and Tubal as trading partners with Tyre (Modern Lebanon). It's likely that Meshech and Tubal refer to the ancient Moshi/Mushki and Tubalu/Tibareni who dwelled in the area around, primarily south of, the Black and Caspian Sea in Ezekiel's day. Today these nations would be in the modern country of Turkey, parts of Southern Russia and Northern Iran. All areas with a Muslim majority.

Verse 6 adds Gomer and Beth-Togarmah to the coalition. "Gomer" was the first son of Japheth. The Gomerites were the ancient Cimmerians, expelled in 700 B.C. from the southern steppes of Russia into what is today Turkey. "Togarmah" is the 3rd son of Gomer and beth at the beginning of the name is the Hebrew word for 'house' or 'place of'. In Ezekiel's time there was a city in Cappodocia (Modern Turkey) known as Tegarma, Tagarma, Til-garimmu, and Takarama.

The possibility that four of the names mentioned in Ezekiel are now in Turkey makes a pretty strong argument for Turkey being a part of the invasion of Israel. Current circumstances in that country also lend this view some credibility. Since the break-up of the Soviet Union, Turkey has been gaining inroads into Central Asia (Magog). It is also linked to Central Asia both ethnically and linguistically, and has a growing number of political parties that support opposition to Israel, establishment of a Turkish Islamic Republic, and the worldwide rule of Islam.

Verse 5 brings three more names into the mix. God tells us that "Persia, Cush and Put will be with them".

Persia is a pretty easy one. In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the city of Babylon. You only need look at a map of the ancient Persian Empire to see that it was centered in the nation known today as Iran. In fact Iran was called Persia until 1935 when it was changed to Iran and then to the Islamic Republic of Iran in 1979 during the Iranian Revolution. It's no secret that Iran is an archenemy of Israel and the West, and a supporter of the Palestinians. They are actively working to get other Arab countries to change camps in their cooperation with the U.S. and Israel.

The ancient kingdom of Cush in Ezekiels time was the land just south of Egypt on the Nile River. Today this land is occupied by Sudan. Sudan is home to the National Islamic Front, is ruled by an Islamic military dictatorship, a strong supporter of Iraq, home to Osama bin Landen from 1991-1996, and harbors countless Islamic terrorist groups. Sudan would easily fit into the coalition as it is already close allies with Iran, trading military supplies for docking rights on the Red Sea shipping routes.

Ancient Put was the land just west of Egypt, or what is today Libya. Libya is another sponsor of terrorism, and openly refuses to recognize Israel's right to even exist. When the coalition against Israel is formed, Libya won't have to be asked twice to join.

Verse 6 adds "and many people with you." The nations listed specifically are all somewhat distant from Israel. By adding "and many people with you", God may have been indicating that those nations and peoples in closer proximity to Israel will join the Jihad. Other nations that might join the alliance are Iraq, Syria, Jordon, and Egypt. All of them are Islamic nations, and all of them would not hesitate to support the destruction of Israel were the opportunity to join such a vast coalition presented to them.

Below is a list of the nations that are listed in Ezekiel as Israel's last-days enemies:

ANCIENT NAME
MODERN NATION
EXPLANATION

Rosh
Russia or Chief
Ancient Sarmatians known as Rashu, Rasapu, Ros, and Rus.

OR

Translated as the adjective Chief.

Magog
Central Asia
Ancient Scythians - Islamic southern republics of the former Soviet Union with a population of 60 million Muslims. This territory could include modern Afghanistan.

Meshech
Turkey
Ancient Muschki and Musku in Cilicia and Cappadocia.

Tubal
Turkey (also southern Russia and Iran)
Ancient Tubalu in Cappadocia.

Persia
Iran
Name changed from Persia to Iran in 1935.

Ethiopia (Cush)
Sudan
Ancient Cush, south of Egypt.

Put
Libya
Ancient Put, west of Egypt.

Gomer
Turkey
Ancient Cimmerians - from the seventh century to first century B.C. in central/western Anatolia.

Beth-togarmah
Turkey
Til-garimmu - between ancient Carchemish and Haran (southern Turkey).

Many peoples with you
Other Islamic nations
Possibly Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt


The reasons God gives us for the enemies' invasion of Israel are further proof that the attack will be an Islamic invasion.

The first reason God gives for the invasion in Ezekiel 38 is a desire by the coalition to cover the Jewish land and wipe them off the face of the earth. Urged on by a hatred of the Jewish people they will seek to destroy them and the nation of Israel. This is the stated goal today of almost every Islamic nation in the Middle East. The only nations not currently in a declared state of war with Israel are Egypt, Turkey, and Jordan, yet they would certainly be glad to see Israel eliminated if presented with a willing leader and an opportunity to rid the Middle East of Islam's archenemy.

God tells us that they also come to "seize plunder…and to capture great spoil". Many verses in the Quran advocated plundering for the benefit of Islam and there are several instances of this war tactic throughout the history of Muhammad's life. In fact, it is a common theme in his teachings.

This invasion of Israel and attack on the Jewish people will indeed be a Jihad, but it will also be the final Jihad.

Ezekiel 38:13 "Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish with all its villages will say to you, 'Have you come to capture spoil? Have you assembled your company to seize plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to capture great spoil?'"

As this invasion develops, a few countries will make a lame protest. This isn't hard to believe when you look at the indifference most nations display as Israel is repeatedly attacked by terrorists.

The specific nations who question Gog's actions are "Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish". Sheba and Dedan are not hard to identify. These were ancient names for what is known today as Saudi Arabia.

Tarshish is most commonly agreed to be ancient Tartessus or the area of present day Spain in Western Europe. In Ezekiels day, Tarshish was in the farthest west regions of the known world. By referring to Tarshish and all her merchants, Ezekiel could have been indicating that Western Europe will join with Saudi Arabia in denouncing the invasion. Interestingly, Saudi Arabia is the only Arab nation to consistently side with the West against radical Islamic elements around the world. The royals of Saudi Arabia mostly side with the West out of an interest in self preservation, and at times oppose us behind the scenes, but they would most probably put on a show of opposition to radical Islam in order to maintain the support of western governments.

A similar alliance has been seen once before during the Gulf War of the early 1990's. The U.S., Western Europe, and Saudi Arabia were allied against Iraq, while Russia, Iran, Sudan, Libya, and most other Middle East nations either aligned with Iraq, or against the U.S. either by directly opposing it, or by remaining neutral.

The good news is that God wins. God will come against the invaders Himself and destroy them. Verses 19-20 say that there will be an earthquake so great that people all over the world will tremble. In the ensuing chaos, nations will begin to turn on each other. The confusion will lead to the largest case of death by friendly fire ever seen.

Verse 22 of Ezekiel tells us that there will be plagues, torrents of rain, hailstones, and burning sulfur. Just as God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, he will destroy these invading forces. Once again, God will make it known to all the nations that He is the Lord. He will give the nations proof that He is the Holy One in Israel.

This war against Israel will pave the way for the Antichrist's military rule over the world and his demand that the world worship him as God. With Islam defeated and the Christian Church raptured, opposition to worshipping a man as God will be greatly reduced. Those who are left would have no army with which to mount much of a protest.

So, how should Christians respond to this prophecy? In Ezekiel 39:6,7, and 28 God says that this end-times battle will happen that "they will know that I am the Lord". This message that God's purpose is to cause Israel and the other nations to know He is Lord is repeated over 60 times in Ezekiel. By learning about prophecy and teaching it to others, people will be able to see the glory, majesty, and sovereignty of God in the fulfillment of His divine word. By knowing our Bible and teaching it to others, they will be able to see that there is a divine creator, and a plan for them. Through Jesus Christ and the salvation he offers us freely, there is victory and an eternity more glorious than they can imagine.

Contender Ministries

http://contenderministries.org

R
Rahman Aug 31, 2007

In listening to the book: "The Coming China Wars", i've leaned much about whats's going on in China, and yes they are up to some grimy and dastardly things, but the thing that has stuck out more than anything else is this ... AGAIN ...

UnGodly China is doing the very same things now, that supposedly God fearing Britain and America did in the past in reference to being primarily greedy self serving blood suckers ...

i was actually more appalled at learning a little more of what Britain did to the Chinese, and why, during the Opium Wars, and how that the opium driven Golden Triangle that plagues and provides heroin today, is a direct result of the British Empires foray into drug trafficking ... Then there's America's rough dealings with the Chinese also at the beginning of the last century, and our dealings with the Muslim Middle East - particularly with the Gulf nations ...

[b]OPIUM WARS[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

[b]GOLDEN TRIANGLE[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Triangle_(Southeast_Asia)

When the western powers were in their hey-day they too raped, pillaged, enslaved and destroyed, much in the name of God and might makes right ...

[b]CHRISTIANITY: Abused for Power, Personal Purpose & Prosperity ... SI Thread[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14398&forum=35#111122

Now the embattled and broke West, particularly America, is embroiled with the vengence of an emergent Allah and Jihad driven Middle East, and a Godless communist blood sucking giant in the Far East ...

Makes me think of the scripture in the Revelation that says, "He that leads into captivity, shall be led into captivity" ... Or "He that makes people junkies, shall be made into a junkie" ... Or "He that leads people into debt and poverty, shall be led into debt and poverty" ... It's like one looming massive national lesson into "you reap what you sow" ... [color=CC0000]If most saints, particularly here in the U.S., collectively had any idea the magnitude of the mess of reaping we're in for, we'd ALL be on our faces right now, tears streaming, before our Lord ... [/color]

On that note ... Happy Labor All! ---


R
rookie Sep 1, 2007

Here is another example of U.S. involvement in ways that may surprise many...

"Freedom fighters" armed and trained by the U.S.


THE AFGHAN rebels that fought the USSR’s military occupation were backed to the hilt by the U.S. government. In fact, in a 1998 interview, Zbigniew Brezinski, who was national security adviser in the Carter administration, admitted that Washington had begun funding the mujahadeen six months before the Russian invasion in order to provoke "a Soviet military intervention."

The U.S. deliberately chose to back Islamic fundamentalist organizations, rather than secular and nationalist groups, because Brezinski hoped not just to drive the Russians out of Afghanistan, but to cause unrest within the USSR itself.

With the support of Pakistan’s military dictator, Gen. Zia ul-Haq, the U.S. began recruiting and training mujahadeen fighters from the 3 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan--as well as large numbers of mercenaries from other Islamic countries.

The operation was supervised by the CIA, with Pakistani forces carrying out the work on the ground. "The trainers were mainly from Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence agency, who learnt their craft from American Green Beret commandos and Navy SEALS in various U.S. training establishments," according to the British military magazine Jane’s Defence Weekly.

Washington leaders fell in love with their rebel army in Afghanistan. Ronald Reagan--the same man who denounced the African National Congress and the Palestine Liberation Organization for not renouncing violence--described the mujahadeen as "freedom fighters."

Reagan met in Washington with rebel leaders like Abdul Haq, who openly admitted his responsibility for terrorist attacks, such as a 1984 bomb blast at Kabul’s airport that killed at least 28 people.

Meanwhile, with CIA assistance, the mujahadeen greatly expanded opium production in areas under its control--turning Afghanistan into what one U.S. official later described as the new Colombia of the drug world.

Between 1979 and 1989, "the CIA and Saudi intelligence together pumped in billions of dollars worth of arms and ammunition," according to the Economist. But when the USSR finally withdrew in 1989, the administration of George Bush Sr. turned its back on Afghanistan--leaving it, in the words of the Economist, "awash with weapons, warlords and extreme religious zealotry."

.......

The seeds our nation sowed during the Carter Administration have come to fruit....

In Christ
Jeff


I
IRONMAN Sep 1, 2007

bro Pastorfrin

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

indeed the article you posted i believe to be quite accurate inasmuch as what the Russians and Iranians and other Arab states around Israel are planning for her however i believe that there are some critical errors.the idea of the rapture and also the error in a misreading of Ezekiel 36. There are certain conditions which present Israel clearly doesn't meet as it pertains what God says in that text.

[b]16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.[/b]

Israel 1948 was Israel being formed by the arm of the flesh. This wasn't the fulfilment of what Ezekiel 36 speaks of. in the above section, Israel has been scattered among the heathen for idolatries and even there in the lands of the heathen continues in those idolatries.

[b]20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.[/b]

Israel before 1948 was already among the heathen nations and embracing the various cultures and forsaking God. What is being spoken of in Ezekiel 36 is a return from having been cast out of the land which is not what 1948 was about.

now some would say that this dispersal happened some time after 70 A.D. but let us consider this section.

[b]22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. [/b]

however what God says here says very plainly that all the nations will know without a doubt that God is the one who brought them back. There is something about that which to me says the nations of the world will acknowledge ISrael as a sovereign nation (which most don't) and more importantly will acknowledge God, this hasn't happened either.

[b]25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.[/b]

now this part is very telling, God will change ISrael completely from what she was out in the heathen lands, cleansing her from all her sin and giving her a new Spirit, His Spirit that they would walk in His statutes...i look at Israel now and the Jew in general and he isn't too concerned about God. Israel is rife with all sorts of bitternerss, iniquity, violence, rebellions of various kinds which are the very thing which God says in this section is will purge them of once in the land.

[b]31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. [/b]

now this is very telling also, Israel has yet to acknowledge the holocaust as judgment, she has yet to acknowledge the iniquity which brought on that Judgement and she most certainly hasn't loathed herself for her iniquity. the last section of the last verse i believe speaks also to Israel in effect founding herself in 1948 and our Lord having them see that was of their own flesh and not Him.

also Israel shall dwell in the lands of her forefathers which include syria, Jordan, lebanon. all of these yet exist. Damascus will be reduced to rubble per Isaiah 14 (or is it 24) and i believe that happens when God clears away the nations which are squatting on the land of Israel (of which Syria is one) in preparation for her return.

33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

now if we look at vs 35, ask yourself this (God asked me this when i asked Him what this meant) has anyone ever seen Eden who is alive today? i would think not The thing which GOd is saying here is that the land will become more beautiful and rich than anything any man has ever seen before who is alive today. that isn't Israel today. also this springs from a desolation of the land which all men will acknowledge as being extreme. This i believe will happen when Israel is chased out of the land soon on account of some things which will come to fruition which at present i'm constrained to talk about. the arabs around her will attack but Israel will nuke the land on the way out, leaving it in a bad way...

[b]36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. [/b]

now this speaks of those nations which will be destroyed to make way for the returning repentant Jew. and again the heathen will know God did it...in this whole chapter there is a lot of God saying "I" and that to me implies something unique, something in which man has no part or a part which displays God's power. kinda like Jericho, all Israel had to do was march around in silence looking foolish and blow the horns...for 7 days.

and also Israel will know God...they don't know Him now...

here is an excerpt from Ezekiel 37

[b]22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. [/b]

upon returning to the land Israel will be His people and He will be their God, this is not so now. For most Jews, there is no God, especially one who would allow the holocaust...

Now, another thing is this David being their Prince forever. i believe firmly that this has to do with Israel stepping into the New Covenant with Jesus as Messiah. this hasn't happened yet. in Zechariah 13 there is mention of 2 thirds of Israel being cut off and the remaining third tried by fire which i believe speaks to the coming chasing out of Israel from the land.

So then the war of Gog and Magog is probably the same one which has to do with the Gathering of the nations at Armageddon and it is set off by Irsael being shown to the nations as the chosen nation of God. Another thing is that at this time, ISrael is at peace...

from Ezekiel 38

[b]10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think F176 an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, F177 all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take F178 a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.[/b]

this is clearly not Israel today so it is a HUGE leap to think Gog and MAgog is upon us now. it is a few years away at least. in my estimation bro, this wicked, escapist mentality of a pre-trib rapture (which itself comes from a misreading of scripture, and is from the pit of hell, Satan the Lord rebuke you!!!) causes men to misread the word in this regard. We have more time here than we think and many will fall away when the rapture as it is taught now fails and ISrael is destored for a period. this is the great falling away Paul talks about which must PRECEDE the revelation of antichrist which PRECEDES the coming of CHrist at which point we are caught up with Him on His Return, that is raptured. that desire to escape trial, especially knowing the God we serve is more than capable to preserve us is a slap in His Face, we don't believe He can hold us up in that time do we want to duck out early. if in the beginning the Church suffered, how much more shall she suffer at the end when God works to prove to the enemy that no matter what he does to the Church in persecutions as said through Paul in Romans 8:

[b]31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [/b]

There is not one thing, nay not 1 which can separate us from God. no amount of persecution...not a thing for those of us in Jesus so what have we to fear...or maybe we don't believe this...

that God-Damned (in the only sense of this expression not flippantly as we have seen it used sometimes) heresy of escaping what is to come has rendered the Church impotent, sitting around waiting for a bus which isn't coming until she has been purified by the fire of those days...

oh God help us awak from our slumber!

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

P
pastorfrin Sep 1, 2007

Bro. Ironman,

indeed the article you posted i believe to be quite accurate inasmuch as what the Russians and Iranians and other Arab states around Israel are planning for her however i believe that there are some critical errors.the idea of the rapture and also the error in a misreading of Ezekiel 36. There are certain conditions which present Israel clearly doesn't meet as it pertains what God says in that text.

I agree, I simple posted the article to show the different theories on those nations Gog and Magog are made up of. Probably not a good idea as I look at it now. For every ones information, I am not pre-trib.and yes the true church has much suffering to endure, for Jesus sake.

In His Love
pastorfrin

I
IRONMAN Sep 1, 2007

bro PastorFrin

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

well i think it was good that you put this article out there because our sister is dead on concerning the who's who of the nations in this coalition led by the Russians and we as the saints of God ought to be aware of events.

i didn't think you endorsed the whole article as you posted as the subject of your thread a question rather than a statement. i didn't mean to come across as though i was accusing you as such. to be sure i am deeply grieved and angered at the perpetuation of this heresy which lulls us to sleep when we ought to be awake and from which so many are profiting...

God help us...

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sermonindex Sep 1, 2007

You know I'm really beginning to think that Russia is Satan's favorite nation ... There has to be something way back in Gog and Magog's history that's a clue to why, because they seem so wholly susceptible to Satan's leading - especially when it comes to the hatred of the Jew
We give Satan way too much credit, when in actuality it is God who is the divine orchestrator of nations. Satan is just a pawn, remember Christ spoiled principalities and powers. I don't need to tell you these things, I am sure you know that God sets up kingdoms and tears down another.

We even read in the word that God uses a nation to conquer another nation, and God pays them with the spoils therein. Since God is being pushed out of the Western nations, He'll push at them something that they will fear. God is not called the I AM for nothing. And nothing is new under the sun.

As for Jew hating, remember that it was God who said that He would scatter the Jewish people into the four corners of the earth, with that scattering He also sent forth a sword after them. That sword is the hate that you see today. God speaks and it is done.

I
IRONMAN Sep 2, 2007

bro COmpliments
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

We give Satan way too much credit, when in actuality it is God who is the divine orchestrator of nations. Satan is just a pawn, remember Christ spoiled principalities and powers. I don't need to tell you these things, I am sure you know that God sets up kingdoms and tears down another.

i suppose some people do but knowing bro Rahman as i do, he is well aware of this Truth which you have spoken of. if i had said the same thing, it would be assuming that everyone was aware of this. indeed our Lord does play the nations of the world against one another and uses the enemy as a pawn in His whole Plan.

He is Awesome indeed.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus' Name.AMEN.

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