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Where Did the King James Bible Come From?

H
hmmhmm Sep 1, 2007

Where Did the King James Bible Come From?

Adapted from [url=http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0184.asp]Let's weigh the evidence[/url]. Concerned that the whole issue of "Which Bible?" was confusing members of his church, Burton wrote this easy-to-read summary of the research of many gifted men in the field of Bible translation. Here is just a small portion of this very readable book.

There Are Two Kinds of Manuscripts:

Accurate Copies

These manuscripts represent the manuscripts from which the "Textus Receptus" or Received Text was taken.

They are the majority of Greek manuscripts which agree with each other and have been accepted by Bible believing Christians down through the centuries. It is from these manuscripts that the King James Bible was translated in 1611.

Corrupted Copies

These manuscripts represent the corrupted copies of the Bible, also known as the Alexandrian manuscripts. These manuscripts, many times, do not even agree with each other. The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts are part of this group. These are the manuscripts on which Westcott and Hort and the modern versions rely so heavily.

There are 5,309 surviving Greek manuscripts that contain all or part of the New Testament. These manuscripts agree together 95% of the time. The other 5% account for the differences between the King James and the modern versions.

The modern versions had to use the Textus Receptus, since it contains the majority of the surviving Greek manuscripts. The problem is that, when the Textus Receptus disagreed with the Vaticanus or the Sinaiticus, they preferred these corrupted manuscripts over the Textus Receptus.

That accounts for the 5% corruption in the modern versions. Even these two manuscripts agree with the Textus Receptus much of the time. When they do not agree, it is because Marcion (120-160 AD) or Origin (184-254 AD) or whoever, corrupted them.

Now, the fact has been established that the modern versions are different than the King James Bible (see LET'S WEIGH THE EVIDENCE for numerous, verse by verse examples). But, we still need to answer the question: Why are they different?

There are at least 5,309 surviving Greek manuscripts which contain all or part of the New Testament. Plus, there are translations into different languages which date back to within 100 years of the disciples. For example, the Peshitta is a Syrian translation from the 2nd century.

These manuscripts agree with each other about 95% of the time. The problem is, how does one determine what is right in the 5% of the places where the manuscripts do not agree?

Argument One

(Modern versions) "The Bible is just like any other book. It is not liable to Satanic attack. In order to find out what the original copy probably said, you just find the oldest copies available and use them.

"We don't have the exact word of God now anyway, so a few disagreements will not matter."

Argument Two

(King James Bible) "The Bible is not ‘just like any other book.' Satan hates it because it is the Word of God. Satan has been trying to destroy it ever since the Garden of Eden.

"However, God has preserved His Word for us. He preserved the Old Testament through the Levites as priests and He has preserved the New Testament through the body of believers through the witness of the Holy Spirit."

The vast majority of Greek manuscripts agree together. They have been passed down through the centuries by true Bible-believing Christians.

In 1516 Erasmus compiled, edited, and printed the Greek "Textus Receptus" (received text). This is the text that the Protestants of the Reformation knew to be the Word of God (inerrant and infallible). The King James Bible was translated from the "Textus Receptus."

The debate continues:

Argument One

(Modern versions) The oldest surviving manuscripts must be the most reliable. Therefore, when determining what manuscripts to depend on, the Vaticanus (350 AD) and the Sinaiticus (about 350 AD) should be accepted as correct (even if 998 other manuscripts disagree with them).

Argument Two

(King James) The oldest manuscripts (the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) are not reliable at all! But wait, the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus disagree with each other over 3,000 times in the gospels alone!

Facts About the Vaticanus

It was written on fine vellum (tanned animal skins) and remains in excellent condition. It was found in the Vatican Library in 1481 AD. In spite of being in excellent condition, it omits:

Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 46:28
Psalms 106-138
Matthew 16:2-3
The Pauline Pastoral Epistles
Hebrews 9:14-13:25
Revelation

These parts were probably left out on purpose.

Besides all that, in the gospels alone it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses and 748 whole sentences, which hundreds of later copies agree together as having the same words in the same places, the same clauses in the same places and the same sentences in the same places.

The Vaticanus was available to the translators of the King James Bible, but they didn't use it because they knew it is unreliable. The Vaticanus also contains the Apocrypha.

Facts About the Sinaiticus

The Sinaiticus is a manuscript that was found in 1844 in a trash pile in St. Catherine's Monastery near Mt. Sinai, by a man named Mr. Tischendorf. It contains nearly all of the New Testament plus it adds the "Shepherd of Hermes" and the "Epistle of Barnabas" to the New Testament.

The Sinaiticus is extremely unreliable, proven by examining the manuscript itself. John Burgeon spent years examining every available manuscript of the New Testament. He writes about the Sinaiticus:

"On many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40 words are dropped through very carelessness.

Letters, words or even whole sentences are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately canceled; while that gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same words as the clause preceding, occurs no less that 115 times in the New Testament."

That's not all!

On nearly every page of the manuscript there are corrections and revisions, done by 10 different people. Some of these corrections were made about the same time that it was copied, but most of them were made in the 6th or 7th century.

Phillip Mauro was a brilliant lawyer who was admitted to the bar of the Supreme Court in April 1892. He wrote a book called "Which Version" in the early 1900's. He writes concerning the Sinaiticus:

"From these facts, therefore, we deduce: first that the impurity of the Codex Sinaiticus, in every part of it, was fully recognized by those who were best acquainted with it, and that from the very beginning until the time when it was finally cast aside as worthless for any practical purpose."

The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts are the oldest, but they are not the best manuscripts!!!

That's where the modern translators went wrong! They foolishly accepted the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus simply because they were old.

They did not attempt to find out why they were so vastly different from the Greek text that real Christians have known to be the infallible Word of God.

When the modern versions say in the footnotes, "Some of the oldest mss. do not contain vv. 9-20," or "This verse not found in the most ancient authorities," they are taking their information from the corrupt and unreliable Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts!

Don't fall for the "oldest are the best" line! The oldest are not the best! For example, the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus both leave out the last 12 verses of Mark, concerning the resurrection of Christ.

But, there is not one other manuscript, either uncial or cursive, that leave out this passage. There are 18 other uncial (capital letter) manuscripts that have the passage in and at least 600 cursives (small letter) manuscripts that all contain these verses.

The evidence is at least 618 to 2 against the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Yet, look in your modern version.

The New American Standard Bible puts all these verses (Mark 16:9-20) in brackets, saying that these verses probably were not in the original writings. The other versions use brackets or footnotes.

That's ridiculous!!! In a court of law, if you had 618 witnesses that saw something happen, and you had two witnesses that said they did not see it happen, would you accept the testimony of the 618 or the testimony of the 2?

You see, it is foolish for any translator to accept a manuscript simply because of age, without checking to find out where it came from and if it was reliable or not.

Why do the modern versions question the virgin birth of Christ, attack the doctrine of the deity of Christ, the infallibility of the Bible, the doctrine of salvation by faith and the Trinity?

(For the surprising answer to this and many other questions, read [url=http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0184.asp]Let's weigh the evidence[/url]

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 1, 2007

Hi hmmhmm...

I disagree with the "facts" and perspective of the publisher of this article (Jack Chick). If someone wants to know WHY a vast majority of textual scholars prefer the Alexandrian text type, why not simply speak with them?

That's what I did! I actually telephoned, emailed and wrote letters in the hope of corresponding with those individuals. Their "rationale" in regards to the manuscript preference is quite different from the reasons listed in this article.

:-)

H
hmmhmm Sep 1, 2007


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi hmmhmm...

I disagree with the "facts" and perspective of the publisher of this article (Jack Chick). If someone wants to know WHY a vast majority of textual scholars prefer the Alexandrian text type, why not simply speak with them?

That's what I did! I actually telephoned, emailed and wrote letters in the hope of corresponding with those individuals. Their "rationale" in regards to the manuscript preference is quite different from the reasons listed in this article.

:-)

maybe i will do so myself brother :-) , somehow you are a great encouragement to me brother! Im interested in what kind of responses you might have had brother
. Maybe i set out on a "quest" of my own...

sermonindex Sep 1, 2007

Where did the KJV come from?

First of all it was decreed by King James.

Secondly it was mostly translated by one man William Tyndale.

Thirdly it was translated by other scholars.

Fourthly the paper.

Fifthly the ink for writing.

Sixthly the use of a primitive printing press.

Seventh thread to sew the books together.

Eighth a cows hide to wrap the book.

There you have it! Enjoy

T
thomasm Sep 1, 2007

Where do we get the idea that the written word is infalible? I don't find it in the word. I know it was God breathed. Without the Spirit, who teaches us all things, the written word can lead us into all kinds of error. Satan used the written word to test our Lord, and he is still using it to deceive and distort the gospel of grace.
As for versions or translations , ask God to give revelation of the word, God can speak to me through any translation, but I preferr King James, because of it's closer to word for word text. For reading I prefer NIV , because some greek words donot have one english word to adequately describe the thought, and it,s modern english. Take the time to see how this version was translated, dont take someone elses word for it. love tom

S
Swordbearer Sep 2, 2007


thomasm wrote:
Where do we get the idea that the written word is infalible? I don't find it in the word. I know it was God breathed. Without the Spirit, who teaches us all things, the written word can lead us into all kinds of error. Satan used the written word to test our Lord, and he is still using it to deceive and distort the gospel of grace.

[i][b][color=0000CC]Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [/color][/b][/i]

[i][b][color=0000CC]Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [/color][/b][/i]

[i][color=0000CC]Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [/color][/i]

The Lord God is infallible. [i]The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.[/i]The law of the Lord, and the testimonies of the Lord are the Word of God. The Word of God is the rock on which our faith and hope is grounded on. That which is God-breathed is the essence of the Spirit of God. This God-breathed Word [u][i]must[/i][/u] therefore be infallible. If the Word of God were fallible, then God Himself would be fallible; and if God were fallible, He would not be God.
The written word of God will never lead men into error when it is read and understood as a complete, unified, and innerant whole. The devil has been manipulating, distorting and isolating individual verses outside of their context since the Garden of Eden. He did the same to Christ, and He continues to employ this very effective tactic to this day.
Every verse in the Scriptures must agree with every other verse in Scripture. If a man's use of a verse fails in this vital area, then this man is in error. Remember, the only thing dividing the old and new Testaments is the cross. Jesus said; [i]Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. [/i]
[i]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/i]
For His glory
Aaron


J
jlosinski Sep 2, 2007

So many people use the KJV, and since the Tyndale bible was used heavily for the KJV, I think..., why do not more christians use the Tyndale bible? Should it be used? I have ordered a reprint new testament version with modern spelling, no change to the wording save spelling, and am wondering if it can or should be used like the other bible versions?

J
jlosinski Sep 2, 2007

Swordbearer- I love your quote at the bottom!

R
roaringlamb Sep 2, 2007

why do not more christians use the Tyndale bible

Another question to ask is why did King James outlaw the Geneva Bible? Which was already doing quite well without the need for another translation, and was largely based upon Tyndale's' work, as well as the work of John Calvin, John Knox, and some of the other Reformers in Geneva at the time.

sermonindex Sep 2, 2007

Another question to ask is why did King James outlaw the Geneva Bible? Which was already doing quite well without the need for another translation,
Competition perhaps?

P
philologos Sep 2, 2007

Another question to ask is why did King James outlaw the Geneva Bible? Which was already doing quite well without the need for another translation,

because the version that followed the Geneva Bible was such a dud! and James wanted to unite his two kingdoms of England and Wales in a single religion with a single translation.

and because God makes even the foolishness of men to praise him..

Competition perhaps?

The lust for control...

If you are interested in the background to the King James Version, which is still my version of choice, I suggest you read...

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Secretaries-Making-James-Bible/dp/0060838736/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-2700504-0740642?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188752856&sr=1-1]God's Secretaries[/url] by Adam Nicolson

It is a fascinating account of the history behind the KJV.

S
Swordbearer Sep 3, 2007


roaringlamb wrote:
why do not more christians use the Tyndale bible

Another question to ask is why did King James outlaw the Geneva Bible? Which was already doing quite well without the need for another translation, and was largely based upon Tyndale's' work, as well as the work of John Calvin, John Knox, and some of the other Reformers in Geneva at the time.

Perhaps the best answer to this very good question is to say that God does indeed direct the afairs of men, and that He most certainly has a keen interest in the preservation of His word. Can man act outside of the will of God? Most certainly. However, it would be very difficult to say that the AV was not "authorized" by God, considering the tremendous fruit that has come from the use of this translation. Think of it; for 250 years this was THE english bible. Moody, Spurgeon, Whitfield, Wesley, Edwards, Finney, Nettleton; the Lord used these and many other great men of God as the instuments of some of the greatest revivals and movements of God in the history of the world. The only bible they had was the AV. I wonder if perhaps in all our "wisdom" and multitude of "bible translations", have we have lost something? Have we lost something of a reverance for the Word of God?

For His glory
Aaron

sermonindex Sep 3, 2007

The geneva bible and KJV are pretty close to the same, but the notes are different. I believe the note in the geneva bible were more complementing to the common people. Mary and King James felt that the KJV was instituted for kings and governmental authority, basically their power as kings came from divine right from God. During this time era, religion was controlled by government. King James mother, Bloody Mary, greatly opposed of the Geneva Bible, she executed many Protestants due to the Geneva bible.

Would many read the KJV is they new that the King James was a homosexual?

P
PreachParsly Sep 3, 2007

Would many read the KJV is they new that the King James was a homosexual?

What proof do you have of this? I hear this all the time, but have never seen any proof. I hear this just a little bit more often that I hear that Shakespeare wrote the KJV...

sermonindex Sep 3, 2007

History indicates it. Alerigg Jacobean Pageant. If you go to Puritan Mind and look up Geneva Bible or do a search on the web. Contemporary sources have stated this. There are all kinds of articles that support this theory.

Shakespeare actually quoted more from the Geneva bible than the KJV.

R
roaringlamb Sep 3, 2007

Shakespeare actually quoted more from the Geneva bible than the KJV.

From what I understand, Shakespeare was really Francis Bacon. While there was a real William Shakespeare, he was not intelligent enough to write the plays that are accredited to Shakespeare.

Bacon undoubtedly had an effect upon the translating committee as he was one of the great intellectuals in England at the time.

R
roaringlamb Sep 3, 2007

Ron I would be curious to see what you think of the ESV.

Also, if you could perhaps offer an explanation as to why there is not a better modernized KJV in print today?

Personally, I love the KJV, and find it quite easy to understand for the most part. There are words here and there that need some clarifying, but that does not ruin the version.

H
hmmhmm Sep 3, 2007

aren't the ESV translated from the WH manuscripts? so we cant compare it to the KJV, because it is not from same manuscripts, but it can be with the NIV or NASB or any of the other from the same manuscripts.

edit: i read wrong and there off my answer :)

P
philologos Sep 3, 2007

Ron I would be curious to see what you think of the ESV.

It is a big disappointment; It comes so highly recommended by Grudem and Piper and Packer. It is really an evangelical version of the Revised Standard Version (not the NASV). It claims to be 'word for word' and in the family line of the RSV; those two statements are mutally incompatible.

why there is not a better modernized KJV in print today?

Every version has an element of compromise in it, a perfect word for word translation would be unintelligable.

[color=0033FF]thus for loved the God the world that the Son his the onlybegotten he gave in order that all the believing (ones) towards (into} him not should perish but have life into the ages[/color]

How would get on with that as translation?

This will probablyl bring the roof down on my head but I think the battle for the KJV is probably lost. It is almost completely unintelligable now for youngsters in the 21st Century. In my preaching I have made a strategic retreat to the NKJV. :-o

sermonindex Sep 3, 2007


roaringlamb wrote:
Ron I would be curious to see what you think of the ESV.

Also, if you could perhaps offer an explanation as to why there is not a better modernized KJV in print today?

Personally, I love the KJV, and find it quite easy to understand for the most part. There are words here and there that need some clarifying, but that does not ruin the version.

I to like KJV, I don't read it a lot, But it definitely opens up certain scripture more than other translations.

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