The fate of the American Church

I have just finished reading Isiah and am now in the middle of Jeremiah. While reading I have been impacted often by the similarities between the American Church and the Isrealites in the time of the prophets. My question is:How long can the American church continue in the current direction without evoking a response from God. As I see, the pattern for God calling to reform a person (people) is: warning, discipline, then (if neither bring repentance and therefore reform) destruction.I am usually not an alarmist, but fear diffucult days ahead for the Christians of America if there is not reformation of the "church"What do you think, I hope for all points of view.--matthew

Me, too, I have been listening to Jeremiah, Isaiah, (bible on audio) repeatedly, and I noticed that too. The similarities are very alarming. I put my trust in God no matter what though, and I wait on Him. I believe He will protect His, just like He protected Lot when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. So many in our poor American church are slipping away from the Bible and blindly following wolves in sheep clothing. We must return to our first love, God! He wants us to look to Him, not to others. Lord, please forgive our idolatery, please help all Christians put You first. In Jesus' name, amen.(It's good to talk about what I've just been studying on my own, thanks guys.)

First; amen.I wonder about our protection though...God allowed His prophets to feel the weight of the oppressors allong with the rebels...God will protect us. No one can do anything but kill our bodies, He will allow us to be mistreated no farther than our death...Isiah didn't name his son "God will protect me from harm" he named him "A remenant will return"Fire is only able to purify what is exposed to it. Therefore the Church will only be purified by exposure to the fire of God. I pray that it will be the fire of His Spirit in our hearts, not that of His wrath on our nation.

The Lord has kept a remnant for Himself, just as in the old days. We'll all face the oppression, though.Even those of us who think ourselves (rightly or wrongly) true Christians have very far to go before we are what God wants us to be, and the fire of refinement awaits us. The difference between the true and the false is that the false will die, the true will thrive.

I have been to 5 different churches in 6 weeks of searching. Paris Reidhead's sermon, Ten Schekels and a Shirt, speaks to me in every church I have visited. The effects of humanism is destroying the churches that I have visited. It is so clear. We are man centered and know very little about, He is Worthy!In ChristJeff

I have been to 5 different churches in 6 weeks of searching. Paris Reidhead's sermon, Ten Schekels and a Shirt, speaks to me in every church I have visited. The effects of humanism is destroying the churches that I have visited. It is so clear.Even the church in Chino I mentioned?

Hi Keith,I haven't been there yet.Three weeks ago I tried to call for information. I was not able to get through by phone. I live about 85 miles from the Chino church. I guess I'll just have to drive down early Sunday morning.Thanks for bring it up.In ChristJeff

Bro. Matthew you stated:"How long can the American church continue in the current direction without evoking a response from God. As I see, the pattern for God calling to reform a person (people) is: warning, discipline, then (if neither bring repentance and therefore reform) destruction.I am usually not an alarmist, but fear diffucult days ahead for the Christians of America if there is not reformation of the "church".Well Bro. Matthew according to scripture America and the apostate American chuch can keep on skating until God speaks these dread words "their wickedness is come up before Me" ... Gen.6 [13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.Jonah.1 [1] Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, [2] Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.He is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long suffering in our blatant wickedness, but nobody seems to take under concideration that His wrath is being stored up ... I agree with Bro. Art Katz when he says that one of the greatest tricks the devil ever pulled was getting New Testament Christianity to seperate itself from the Old Testament as if it's irrelevant to today with it's lessons of apostacy ... The Lord showed me quite recently that today "there is no room in the grace intoxicated New Testament church, for the sobering cold water of old Testament judgement ... He told me this to make me know why I don't fit, and I'd dare say why so many of you don't either ... God is still holy, and He still hates sin ... The Revelation is ample proof, and that's New Testament.In one of the sermons on this site I heard a preacher say that even If God had not told the major prophets of old what was soon to befall Israel, they would have known anyway because of their above average fear of the Lord ... The speaker said that what would have made them know was that they were very well aware of the history of Deuteronomy ... Today we've got a complete Bible with all of God's warnings and mandates ... He's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow ... To what degree the nations and or especially His people show complete disrespect and disregard for Him gives those sensitive to Him a pretty good gauge of when He's about had enough ... Bro. Matthew I'd say at this point to go on ahead and be an "alarmist", a "blower of the trumpet", a "watchman on the wall", a "voice crying out in the wilderness ... 9/11 was a wake up call to ALL of us in America, both saved and unsaved. God just tipped His vial in warning, it got our attention for about six months, then back to business worst than usual ... I remember praying hard, in abject horror, in the days right after 9/11, and our Lord was good to me by waiting some months before He made clearer to me what 9/11 meant, and it is this ... "America's idol of economy is destroyed ... America's idol of military is crippled ... America's government is spared (if only for a short season) because like God Himself nobody really believes in it, until something is needed from it ... Besides the fact that it's our government (so far) that keeps protection over Israel ... If we as a nation ever cease that God mandated edict we're really doomed ... And as Bro. Keith stated, whatever judgments are coming, we will all be affected by them ... A lot of Christians died on 9/11, as well as heathen.The second warning He's given us is "The Passion of The Christ" ... Say what you will about that film, one can never say that it didn't bring right down front why we all need to bow before the King of Kings ... I went in masse with two church groups to see that movie, but it's still churchianity as usual in both ... In fact at the church of 3,000 that I attend, on one all night Friday prayer during Lent, there were 4 people there (including myself) ... Even that movie has not had the impact it should have had, so wake up call # 2 missed ... You know God usually does things in threes when His emphasizing ... And now I'm wondering if wake up call #3 is this prison abuse thing in Iraq ... I heard a couple of news anchors the other day refer to us (America) as a moral nation ... I shudder at such satanic inspired blindness in the world, I'm near faint with exasperation of it in Christ Church ... Lord Jesus we are much in need of "eyesalve", but I can only see that we're all about to be slapped so hard to our senses it'll knock us to our knees ... It seems the only way for You to get us to "snap out of it" ... Whatever it takes Lord God, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven ...Amen https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1724 = Run For Your Life

To reply to some of what Rahman was saying:Soon after the passion movie came out and knowing in my spirit that it would not change things much- it would be like a 9-11, people would cry then go back to business as usual. Sometimes you just "know" these things!Anyway, soon after this i had a dream that i have told Greg about- about the Lord's presence leaving. I didn't know if it was just that He was leaving me for awhile or if He meant our nation.In the dream He was downcast and sad- He looked upset but in a sad way. I thought it was me but someone close to Him- like a best friend- said "no, that is just the way He is right now".Then I knew He was leaving . I was so sad, I didn't want Him to go. He left my Mom with a single card, my dad with a single card(both with fancy bows on them) and me with a stacked pile of all differnt kinds of cards (no bow). I even thought to myself- 'why didn't I get a bow?" But i knew that it was because I had such a big stack of all these notes written from Him. They had just gotten a single card, fancy, but with no substance. My notes/cards represent my journals and things I've written from Him and I felt that he was leaving them with me saying that even though His presence is not here- at least I have these.I opened one and it read something like this "Now you know what it is like to live with all of this" (I knew He meant that I saw and felt how heavy He was with everyone's sin) then it said "so now I must go to Ill.-...." It mentioned 2 other states in the U.S. but i couldn't read them. But i did know that I was going to Illinois for a concert very soon and felt it was a promise that i would feel His presence there. And i did!!!!I really wondered after this dream, if his presence was leaving this nation. I can see where He is warning and trying to wake people up- but I have this "sense" or whatever you want to call it- a "knowing", just like I did with 9-11 and with the Passion movie, about the outcome concerning the hearts of the people.All i have to say is that nothing short of persecution will probably bring the people in this nation back to the Lord. It is not that i don't have pity, it is just something i know.In Christ, Chanin

Chanin,Perhaps we should pray for persecution? When I read about the saints in other countries, I'm shaken by the intimate relationship with Jesus, regardless of what is going on around them. I think some people are praying for revival in the U.S. but they're not realizing that they're praying for judgment because He's coming back for a spotless bride, not a lukewarm harlot church.As far as America, here's what I've told a couple of my brothers something like this: "The fence riding days are coming to an end. No you cannot serve God and mammon. You choose whether or not Jesus will be Lord in all things in every possession, in any attitude, in all things." Selah. Surely we need to pray for these folks. As far as praying about suffering, here's a few verses on tribulation.Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience 2 Cor 7:24 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.1 Thess: 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

All i have to say is that nothing short of persecution will probably bring the people in this nation back to the Lord. It is not that i don't have pity, it is just something i know.It is when we look at the world around us and are quite sure that it cannot be revived that God will begin to move in revival. Then there will be no doubt as to who has accomplished the great works in the earth, man cannot take any glory. I believe this nation is under judgment already and it will get much worse, particularly with the economy, but God is moving now to prepare the hearts of His people to shine for His glory in the difficulties ahead. Personally I'm tired of pointing fingers and finding fault for why we are where we are as a nation and a Church. We are way past that point now, it's time to ask now why I'm not making a difference in this world.Perhaps we should pray for persecution?Perhaps we should. To pray for God's peace is to pray for the death and subsequent resurrection of the present day situation. Redemptive judgments of God are true love, and will bring true peace. We must not be afraid of them for ourselves. We must be willing to accept hard truths.The invitation to pray is an invitation to set in motion the redemptive judgments of God that will enable us to be delivered unto His purpose. In Christ,Ron

Friends in response to Chanin's dream, I believe that if the Lord leaves it will be a similar situation as in Ezekiel 8-10. The message I was teaching last night when the server bombed was along the lines of distancing ourselves from our besetting sins and getting rid of the 'vehicles' for our sins to be carried out. The devil would rather kill me than allow such a teaching to come forth. I spoke of some things my dad has done after God delivered him of 25 years of alcoholism. The first thing he did was dump his beer fridge! Then he immediately started taking a different route home from work that he still takes today. A route that does NOT go by that familiar liquor store. Then a few months later he tossed his expensive wine collection strait into the trash (he hated wine by the way)- because the enemy was wanting to weild anything he could to resnare him in the sin and he as a new convert saw it and took immediate action. The enemy will kill you with a plastic knife if you let him! Then he destroyed the old country music tunes he used to listen to because they reminded him of his days of drinking. That, friends, is radical repentance. He hates 'even the garment spotted by the flesh.' We have to hate sin like that! For me it is a modem or something similar. I cannot have one in my house. I can access the net at my parents or friends or anywhere where someone is there to keep me accountable. You say, why he sounds weak! Why would he say such a thing and ruin his reputation? No, I realize that if I were at home and in the middle of the night woke up tired and delerious- the enemy may attack and I had defiled my conscience before I knew what happened and you may never hear from me again. At the least I would not have the BOLDNESS to preach a repentance message because of the defilement of my own conscience. Whan will we realize that the enemy wants that UNCTION? He wants to keep the Children of God with just enough sin to cut the boldness off. Not havingthe 'weights't allows me to come to my senses before the sin is carried out. This type of talk the devil hates. I could go into great length on this topic. If Timothy had to flee youthful lusts- so do I. If Paul had to bring his body into subjection- so do I. I don't want to be a 'castaway' (Greek Adokimos- reprobate, rejected, and disqualified). I would rather die RIGHT NOW than to fall back into secret sin! I have had it! I'm tired of how it used to make me feel. I'm just through with it. Beloved, we have got to stop the secret sins. God is through tolerating it. I'm sick of sin! We have got to stop provoking the Lord to jealousy with secret sins. We have to stop telling ourselves we can 'handle' certain weights. If we can handle them then why does the enemy keep using them as weapons against us? So much more to say...God Bless and Much love in Christ!-Robert

Ron and Ed,good thoughts all around! I agree! Ron, like you said, I am tired of finger pointing, etc... it's too late for that anyway.I will not pray specifically for persecution but I will continue to pray what I've been praying now for over a year :"Thy will be done". What ever it takes, whatever He wants to do- I am up for that, I am ready. The only way people are going to even start to get a clue and be brought to the point of literally running to Him for their exhistence- is if there was persecution or some major catastrophic event that was life threatening.It is very strange because i see a thread running through so many of my dreams that is of Sodom. Bits and pieces. I know that we are worse. When you get this kind of thing- what do you do? who do you tell? no one wakes up even if there's a slight chance they may agree.I have wept, I have warned, and now I am waiting.oh, wow! I just looked at that last line I wrote. I wrote it from me but I wonder.....?In Christ, Chanin

I am sorry about going on here but to quote something from Ed:As far as America, here's what I've told a couple of my brothers something like this: "The fence riding days are coming to an end. No you cannot serve God and mammon. You choose whether or not Jesus will be Lord in all things in every possession, in any attitude, in all things." Selah. I remember distinctly in my prayer time last year (and I wrote this down) "The fence is broken".I wondered about this and it seems that there is no more fence to sit on any more. It is either His way now or the highway. I had a word I sent out to people in 2002 that is was "Time to Choose". Well, this was two years ago- I don't know how long these things go on. Maybe a long time, maybe not.-TIME TO CHOOSE-The time is drawing near when you must choose. Are you going to choose My will and My ways or your own will and your own ways? Listen, do you hear the words of My Holy Spirit speaking to you- unplug your ears and hear what the Spirit is saying. Once again, I must say, who is on the throne of your heart? Is it yourselves, wanting to remain in control, wanting to orchestrate the moves you make, not wanting to lay down everything to Me?It has been said in this generation that you do not need to give everything up in order to have Me – that is a lie! I am asking you to lay everything down for Me. Those things that you hold on to the tightest- those are the things I want you to lay at My feet. This word must sear the conscience. It must move past the head and to the heart.Do you want to go into the inner court? To do this means sacrifice. Do you understand this? You want more of Me, a greater manifestation of Me, to get closer to Me; does that not mean to enter into the inner court, the Holy of Holies? Only few know the sacrifice it takes to enter in here. Only few are willing to lay down everything and cooperate with Me. Let Me do the ruling , the orchestrating. Think of My will as a glorious ride or adventure. You will either be along for the ride or not. My Will will be done in the body of Christ as a whole with or without you. I am already moving, I am already restoring, I am already equipping My body all over the earth. Think past this group, think past this church building, think of the body of Christ as a whole. What I am doing is amazing!How long will you hang on to yourselves? Do not look for fame, do not look for glory, do not look for wealth, do not look for praises of men, do not even look for blessings—for I am to be blessed! I am to be praised! I am to be glorified! I am to be your riches! I am to be your All in All in All!The enemy will try so hard to keep you from letting go of those things you think you cannot live without. He will convince you of your rights. What about My right to have 100% of your heart and mind? You have no rights when it comes to Me- except to WORSHIP ME, to LOVE ME, SERVE ME and OBEY ME. Don’t you trust Me to know that I will take care of all of your needs, that I will give to you abundantly what I know you need? Am I not enough for you?This generation has filled your head with yourselves and your needs and your claims. Do you not see the plot of the enemy?? Do you not see that so many of you have lost sight of Me and who I really am. To ask Me to continually bless people and things that are still hanging on to their own purposes –I will not have it! Not for My bride, not for My beloved. Oh, My beloved, My pure, pure bride; how I long to be with you. How I long to hold you. Don’t you see that unless you are pure, My Glory would disintegrate you? I love you this much to warn you and warn you. But as I have spoken before, the church is at the crossroads, time is running out. Whom will you choose? The lukewarm church will not stay in My sight. Will you lay everything at My feet so that I might hold you to Me and cherish you, linger over you and enjoy you. I love you My people. I loved you enough to sacrifice what I held dearest to Me, now will you do the same?

Quote:"I have wept, I have warned, and now I am waiting".Amen to this! ... A sister from my church called me yesterday and asked me why I'd become so quiet ... I told her that our Lord had said for me to cease because now it was between Him and my pastor ... But in the meanwhile He has directed me to another church (via a radio program) that has a "teaching" pastor whose word is like a refreshing spring to my parched soul ... I've not left my primary church, for when He moves His miraculous hand I feel there will be much work for me to do there ... But as for now I'll be soaking up, instead of squeezing out ... Thank you Master!

Regarding Chanin's dream:What is the worst part of hell? It's not that you're in constant pain, or that you have eternally, forever, no more hope. The worst part of hell is that you are completely separated from God.God is here, now and always. He has been here since before we have existed. God is omnipresent. It is nonsense to say that God leaves a place. He can withold assistance, He can choose to hide Himself, but He will not change His omnipresence. God is the fairest Judge ever. He punishes individuals for individual sins. Never would he punish the righteous in the USA with the unrighteous. He does not "throw the baby out with the bathwater", to borrow a trite expression.Why is it that we think God has emotions? Isn't that ascribing a human characteristic to God?Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this post are just that, opinions. They may be wrong, they may be stupid, and if so, God will deal with me.

shazbot you stated:"Why is it that we think God has emotions? Isn't that ascribing a human characteristic to God?"On the contrary, I think emotion is a God characteristic ascribed to we humans ... We are created in God's image, right on down to being tri-partite beings, not vise-versa.Love is the greatest emotion of all, and scripture tells us that God so LOVED us that He gave Christ before we were even created (before the setting of the foundation of the world) ... So the emotion of love was of God before we humans ever got here ... God is Love ... Both the OT and the Revelation speak of God's anger/wrath ... Anger is emotion, as is grief which is what we cause the Holy Spirit. God feels joy when we bless Him, especially with our obedience, and delights in giving us the desires of our hearts in reward ... I think we serve a God (the Father) who is emotion, and I thank Him that He shone forth Jesus to cover us in His blood so that His anger can be curbed for this period of grace that we've enjoyed ... I wanted to say "enjoying", but I sense that His wrath is about to be experienced again.

God is a good God. But when that love is repeatedly rejected and with full knowledge bad things start brewing. I was thinking about God being emotional and Psalm 7-11 came to mind, "God is angry with the wicked every day." Charles Finney comments on this passage saying, "God is angry with the wicked. Our text explicitly affirms this. The same truth is affirmed and implied in numerous other passages. Let the sinner remember that this is the testimony of God himself. Who should better know the feelings of God towards sinners than God Himself does? Who on this point can gainsay what God affirms?" I take this together with great fear and awe and couple it with the fact that Paul said in Romans 1:18 that the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven all unrighteousness of men- who hold the truth in unrighteousness (paraphrased). Who among us can say we didn't know better. Moreover, Leonard Ravenhill said something to the effect that if he was the Pope of Protestantism he would shut down the Church (for a week or month?) because the people already had so much LIGHT that they refused to walk in that teaching them more was heaping more on them to account for in the judgment. God have mercy if that has happened. What would happen if we got up and said "To teach this lesson will only harden you if you are impenitent- I must ask you to leave if you are bent on your sin." but we always hope that THIS message couples with the conviction of the Holy Spirit will lead them to God at that time. And then when they reject it- its a grievious and fearful thing. The sleepless nights are adding up beloved. The last couple years have been a real eye opener. I am learning more every day that I preach and teach for God's glory- and not just to look and see results. Preaching repentance now for 5+ months weekly has shown me that problems in the Church is more than with the Preachers. I used to believe it was the preachers and that those in the crowd would come running and weeping at the first thunderous message of true Gospel- what I have found is... some do and some get harder. Those who begin to preach repentance and revival ought to expect resistance from 'pew to principality.' Think of the message of Jeremiah in Jeremiah 25. He preached repentance in some way or the other for 23 YEARS! Every week or so he went to God to get a FRESH word and it was the same word again dressed a little differently- REPENT. "God I just preached that- what is the fresh word for the day?" ... "REPENT!" 5 months is nothing compared to 23 years and I can see in people a serious hardness and in others growth. At the end of the day the people are going to give an account to God for their own spirituality. They have bibles. How is it we would equate what is happening today with the Church with what happened when the Universal church was deceiving the people? Beloved we must remember, they did NOT have bibles. This generation, in many cases,- if they are deceived, are willingly deceived. Since I was a little boy I have feared the ultimate Judgment of God. When judgment finally hits there will be plenty to go around! God have mercy on us. Personally I have read the accounts of the martyrs and others like Richard Wurmbrand's "Tortured for Christ" and I'm not trying to see persecution like that. That's one of the reasons I fee such an urgency and go head on into great persecutions for saying some of the things I do (usually spiritually at this point). I would give my life for Christ to see the sufferings of the Communist Christians and the like prevented in our lands. I agree that it will likely take that to get things together and have felt that way for 11 years. But, some of the things that happen to Christians in the hands of pagans is too horrible for me to even write. Personally I will preach myself into the grave and die in the hands of the Church before I see that happen. I have been an unpopular person for a long time. But I have seen what happens to people who fall into the hands of sinners and God births an urgency and I preach in desperation with God's power. Read Josephus 'Wars.' Mothers having to cook and eat their babies. Famine and destruction so great- we could not imagine. Other writings of torture and rape against believers. We don't want that for our wives and Children, and our moms and dads. I grieve so very deeply that a lot of people are really mad at the Church. I have been hurt by being on the receiving end of extreme hostility towards the Church. I have heard people say they refuse to ASSEMBLE- either with Church Christians or Out-Of-Church Christians. Some won't even acknowledge the name "Church." This is not new. I had to hear that for 3.5 years among the Messianics. If the Church takes a 'spanking from God' it will be first because of the bickering among His children. What grieves the heart of a parent more than to see bitterness among their siblings? If I believe anything I believe that God will deal with that behavior FIRST. God give us the John the Baptist's that will turn the Church from this path in America. Persecution? Daddy come home? maybe God will send the 'razor strap' of persecution to teach us that if were going to fight each other- He can give us some real enemies. Beloved, we wrestle not against flesh and blood...God Bless,-Robert

Preach Bro. Robert!!! ... and I totally agree with this quote: "If the Church takes a 'spanking from God' it will be first because of the bickering among His children. What grieves the heart of a parent more than to see bitterness among their siblings? If I believe anything I believe that God will deal with that behavior FIRST.God give us the John the Baptist's that will turn the Church from this path in America. Persecution? Daddy come home? maybe God will send the 'razor strap' of persecution to teach us that if were going to fight each other- He can give us some real enemies. Beloved, we wrestle not against flesh and blood" ... There's nothing like outside persecution to close the ranks of a bickering family ... Christ commands for us to love one another are pretty much blatantly unheeded ... And you sound like one of those John the Baptist' that we need ... So keep crying out!, in the name of Jesus ... Amen